I was diagnosed with Asperger's around ten years ago, at the age of forty. Up until then I'd only heard occasional references to it, yet they all matched up with me so well that I felt I needed to find out for sure, so got a referral from my G.P.
And it was a revelation to me, discovering that I'm not just a bundle of random weirdness, but actually a very consistent specimen of the Asperger's species.
Partly why I've joined this forum is a phrase that's kept ringing in my head "Normal people scare me". For a long time I didn't know what it referred to, and yet, it really struck a chord. Not that I'm outwardly "scared", but certainly there's an underlying nervousness whenever I have to interact with anyone other than family or very close friends. And looking the phrase up, yes, I discover it's the name of a documentary film all about the Autistic spectrum.
And partly I'm here to confide in you, my fellow freaks. Because, underneath my calm, good-natured exterior I'm really quite angry and about the way I've been treated all my life. Constantly excluded from the normal social world; so often finding myself hated by people despite doing nothing (that I'm aware of) to trigger it; finding it very hard to fit into work environments. About the latter, it's almost comical the way that some companies preach a very accommodating ethic, yet they can be so unyielding when presented with Asperger's type behaviour. I work in IT, and a previous large company I worked for had a procedure where new software requirements were discussed round a table with the in-house clients. I'd just joined this software development team, so I was a newbie to the platform in question. My two fellow developers had years of experience. And yet I found myself being reprimanded for not "saying stuff" in the meetings. Reprimanded!!! How can that happen??? This newbie, trying his best to understand the requirements, which he hasn't seen until sitting there in the meeting, and trying to digest what the experienced developers are saying about how the requirements can be accommodated into the existing system. All this uses every modicum of my conscious focus. And yet I'm expected to say stuff as well??? To make useful remarks??? It even got to the stage where I found myself threatened with disciplinary action over it - which prompted my resignation. (And that really sucks, considering that my computer programming abilities were second to none).
Anyone might say "Why not just tell them you have Asperger's syndrome?" Well it's never been as simple as that. In fact, it's a lose-lose situation. If I tell them I have Asperger's then, yes, they'll be obliged to make special allowances. But the payback is that my personality, as seen by others, is lost. Everything I do will be scrutinised as "is that because he has Asperger's syndrome?" Going from being seen as just a weird person, I'm instead perceived as disabled ...a cripple. Little short of a "retard".
And that's also the strange irony with Asperger's... socially I am a "retard" (although not so much now, as I've learnt to adapt). But other skills I have are significantly superior to the average person's. I.e. my design skills; my spatial awareness; my ability to conceptualise 3-d structures in my mind, my ability to construct algorithms. Sorry, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, just to convey the fact that although I have deficiencies in some ways, I also have other abilities that more than compensate.
It angers me that I (we) have been forced to operate in a world that doesn't understand us, doesn't appreciate us, and to have to bend ourselves to fit into it. We shouldn't be seen as misfits. We should be proud members of our own Asperger's species. Because that's really what it amounts to - we are different to them, but very consistent among ourselves.
I certainly wouldn't want to be any other way. To be "normal" would mean being a completely different person, and losing the things about myself which I regards as most precious. What I'd like is to see Asperger's being more widely recognised and appreciated. Not as a disability, but instead as a respectable "differentness".
Hi - welcome aboard.
Your post reflects my experience in the workplace too. I'm a CEng but I've spent my life being used and abused by the NTs because of my Asperger's.
Can you be absolutely sure, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that they used and abused you because you have Asperger or could it maybe have been that in those situations you were unable to stand up for yourself?
If your theory is true, it would mean that they would use and abuse me as well but I can assure you, they wouldn't, so there’s a flaw in your theory.
I don't want to insult you, but you seem live in a tiny bubble and are totally clueless and unable to understand anyone else's lives - especially those with responsibilities.
If you actually understood the weaknesses that Asperger people have with communication when they are being manipulated by narcissists then you wouldn't post such facile statements.
BlueRay is currently helping me a great deal at the moment to escape from a narcissist. Her support, personal experience and reading material have helped a great deal.
Happy trolling boys!
I understand what you are saying about personally choosing to see yourself as a victim or not, but that’s not the only way you can be a victim by definition, and therefore what you have said about victims could be quite hurtful to some people. Can you not see that.
’You say you blamed somebody and then you forgave them but that you won’t forget what they did.
So in short. You hold that person responsible for how you feel? They made you feel bad and just to prove how bad they made you feel, you will go on feeling bad for the rest of your life, even after the other person has long even forgotten the incident.’
That is offensive and unnecessarily judgmental BlueRay I said that I couldn’t forget i.e. I can’t make the memories that I have disappear at my whim. If I could then I would, but I’ve not yet found a way to produce that amnesia. Do you not remember bad things in your life?!
I’m not out to ‘prove’ anything with my feelings. I’m mentally ill and trying my best to work through that to recover, all utterly unbeknownst to the individuals I am still in legal proceedings against. It is not their business after all. But thanks for dictating to me, a suicidal person, that ‘you will go on feeling bad for the rest of your life’. It appears that despite my efforts, I’m such a terrible person in my and your eyes, so I may as well end it now! And my forgiveness did come from my heart actually - I’m not a disingenuous person and I don’t appreciate it being implied that I am for no reason whatsoever.
It’s a shame you felt you were defending yourself, when in reality I was attempting to have a polite conversation with you about a particular point you made. You appear unwilling to accept that we clearly just have different understandings of the meaning of the word victim and now you have taken offence from my attempt to explain this and insulted me about things in my life, that you know extremely little about. We’ve had conversations before and agreed to disagree, so I don’t know what’s different here - perhaps the messages from others who went before?
FYI, I don’t consider myself a victim personally, but legally I am.
Yo freaks! Indeed
i use the forum as I try to existence in a world that can’t accept difference.
this for me is a huge sanctuary where I hoped we helped and accepted each other. This is nasty. :(
Thanks Eli, but it's ok. I understand that because I experience the world differently, in a way that goes against how some people see the world, things can get a little crazy sometimes. It's never ALL the people but when I start feeling like I'm defending myself, it doesn't feel good and I think that, that feeling is a good indication for me to get out now before things get crazier (I'm learning ️)
I'll still check in so please continue to use the private messaging thing and I'm still planning to come n see you. I just don't feel good defending myself and saying such ridiculous things such as 'I am good with people blah blah blah' it's silly.
I still love this site and as we know, it's super valuable, especially when we're going through difficult times, so please don't somehow get your big elephant body tangled up in this! Now I have an image, of you as Eli, getting all tangled up with crazy string!
Anyway, I have more important dilemmas ~ I want to go out and actually eat something today but I want some cappuccinos as well, and I can't think of a place that has good food and good coffee ano I f I go to one place for food and another for coffee, which do I get first ♀️~ see, I have much more important things to deal with.
Ill check out hire cars as well today X
I’m not trolling, I was trying to have a polite conversation with BlueRay about the fact that we clearly have a different understanding of the word ‘victim’, and I attempted to explain this as best I could.
Instead of acknowledging this though, and agreeing to disagree as we have done previously, she has now made rude remarks to me about my feelings and refused to speak to me anymore. I at no point made any accusatory comments towards her and tried to keep our conversation civil, so I wasn’t expecting that...
But sorry if I’m a terrible person for anything I said.
What I said is NOT offensive. Just because you took offence does not make it offensive. I could say the very same thing to somebody else, which I have, of course, many times, and they did not take offence, so therefore what I said is not offensive. Although of course I know that people can take offence, but that's a different thing altogether.
So what I said wasn't offensive, or judgemental, that is simply how you understood it to be. And instead of telling me I'm being offensive and judgemental, why not take a look at you and ask, why, are you offended? That will give you some clues, if you look deep and hard enough and long enough, as to the cause of your suffering. Of course, you don't have to do that. I'm not telling you to do that. It's just one of the techniques that I used to get myself out of suffering and into happiness.
There is no such thing as a terrible person, in my eyes, there are just people, and from the way that I see the world, we are all exactly the same. There are no good, bad or ugly. We are all the same, 100%.
I didn't imply anything about you and I put question marks behind all my guessing, as I was trying to help you figure out where the cause of your suffering is coming from, so you can put an end to it.
I haven't taken any offence at all to anything you have said but I would have to be completely brain dead to not understand we had different ways of understanding the word victim and as far as I was concerned, we were simply discussing that. I can easily see your view of the word, I was simply trying to show you how I see the word, which is not an easy task when the person explaining lives in the fourth and other dimensions and the person trying to understand it, lives in the third.
I'm not leaving this site because of you. I've enjoyed our conversation, thoroughly. I don't think we have to agree to disagree on anything because why do we've have to agree anything? I wasn't trying to explain my meaning to you so you'd agree with me, but to simply help you to understand my view. If it is helpful to you to see a different perspective, good, but if it isn't, that is equally as good. I don't want people to agree with me, what would be the point in that? I had no idea you thought I was maybe trying to get you to agree with me!
Amyway, like I said, my leaving the site has definitely not got anything to do with you. I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and, as always, I've learned a lot. You haven't done anything to upset me or make me feel like I want to leave the site. I think we were simply engaged in an enjoyable conversation ~ not many people go the distance with me in a conversation as their minds tend to shut off at a certain point so the fact you continued, shows me you have an open mind because I am not an easy person to be understood. I understand people who live in the third dimension, which is where most people live, but they will struggle to understand me, it takes patience and perseverance to understand me when you're coming from the third dimension but it's not impossible.
Anyway, all the best with whatever you've got going on. I suspect that if we were to sit down and chat, face to face, we'd have some great conversations because you clearly do have an open mind. If anything I have said has offended you or that you felt was judgemental, please know, that was never my intention. Like you, I just saw it as two friends chatting.
Take care and you know, bad times do pass. I sincerely hope yours pass sooner rather than later and that the future is much brighter. Much love and again, thank you for such an enjoyable and stimulating conversation.
BlueRay please don’t leave, you are entitled to your thoughts and beliefs as much as any one else, yes often misunderstandings occcur, How I se you is you are trying to be you, I am also, that takes a massive amount of courage,
I can only try to believe in myself, my past dictates wphow that will be,
carry in being you, if your words do sound as telling others , then so be it, it isn’t by the way, it is you trying to have strength in your belief in yourself, take that away and there is nothing,
everyine in here tries as best we can to understand each other, we mostly all have underlying reasons to vent, how our beliefs are structured, we cope as best we can with whatever little we have left,
some turn to religion in order to believe,
some turn to hatred for those that slighted them, you need to have live, to deny those that throughout your life caused you pain and suffering, you need to let go of it, it ests st you, you must do whatever you must to stop that, you are, it may not be what others need or agree with but I respect your beliefs because it is what YOU need and is all you can BE.
I do see how you think, I agree with most of it, not all, but I know you have spent eighteen months in complete and utter shut down, to arise from that like a phoenix you can only do, believe and be what you can.
I accept all in here for who they are, I don’t need to agree with them, but they have as much right to exist as me.
I hope we can all just stop and see that none of us wishes to upset another, we do our best, we support one another, we need to be strong, try to understand why each person holds there belief and see that as their way of coping,
The many conversations we have wander off topic, why not, if the original post allows someone to talk freely about issues they have then fine, it also allows me to see why they struggle or how they are trying to make sense of life, I too am struggling, I get support from people in here,
long may it continue and can we have a massive group hug , without lots of words,
You are not a terrible person, none of us are, we are all trying our best to come to understand a world that doesn’t accept us,
please know you are a kind and caring person just like BlueRay is, we have to sometimes be strong in how we believe, not give in, that can cause misunderstandings of pushing a belief on someone,for far too long we are the weak who just accept things because we are wrong, here we need to believe who we are, we need to hang on to whatever we see gives us understanding,
please you are all lovely kind people,
Stay cool, Sister.
And keep on being BlueRay.
In terms of coming to an understanding and a comprehension of the autistic communication glitches here occurring, consider perhaps:
BlueRay said:And all I’m effectively saying here, is if I blame somebody else for anything to do with me or my life, I instantly become a victim and other people will then treat me as a victim and it’s a vicious cycle.
Is sound reasoning.
BlueRay said:If on the other hand, I take responsibility for myself, whether I like what is happening to me or not and whether I can do anything about it or not, that doesn’t come into this.
Is sound reasoning again.
BlueRay said:The second I blame somebody else, I give away any power I had and I become a victim and from there on end the story is predictable. Victims don’t achieve anything much in life because they have already given away any power they had and might have built on, because it was less painful to blame somebody else than admitting I’m absolutely hopeless with communication, I have no idea why, I don’t understand what’s going on with me or why people are treating me like this, I don’t know where to get help etc etc and deciding to do something about it rather than blame others, which sets my fate pretty clearly.
Is in part unsound reasoning regarding how much 'Victims' achieve, as no one ever gives their power away.
Life is all about discovering and learning what 'is' to be done, and what is 'not' to be done ~ involving the power that is embodied life-long in and on through the mind-body relationship.
In though that 'Victims' are forced as such to be by 'Persecutors', involving the trinity of Elitism as being sexism, ageism and tribalism, it is not unusual that by example some 'Victims' learn the ways of and become 'Persecutors' and 'Rescuers' in order to feel superior (or least mediocre) rather than inferior ~ in terms of having been by others and themselves invested in these socially shared and habitually enforced transactional roles.
Each societal role as such depends or relies upon the other as involving not unusually quite substantial amounts of pain and suffering, and stating / inferring (as seemed to to others) that this is unproductive or unnecessary devalues it ~ as thereby devalues the life experience of those habitually traumatised and invested since childhood into performing the roles of 'Victim', 'Persecutor' and 'Saviour'.
Consider for instance:
The stance of the victim is “poor me!” Victims see themselves as victimized, oppressed, powerless, helpless, hopeless, dejected, and ashamed, and come across as “super-sensitive,” wanting kid glove treatment from others. They can deny any responsibility for their negative circumstances and deny possession of the power to change those circumstances.
A person in the victim role will look for a rescuer, a saviour, to save them (and if someone refuses or fails to do that, can quickly perceive them now as a persecutor.)
In terms of derailing resilience, victims have real difficulties making decisions, solving problems, finding much pleasure in life, or understanding their self-perpetuating behaviours.
The stance of the rescuer is “Let me help you!” Rescuers work hard to help and caretake other people, and even need to help other people to feel good about themselves, while neglecting their own needs or not taking responsibility for meeting their own needs.
Rescuers are classically co-dependent and enablers. They need victims to help and often can’t allow the victim to succeed or get better. They can use guilt o keep their victims dependent and feel guilty themselves if they are not rescuing somebody.
In terms of derailing resilience, rescuers are frequently harried, overworked, tired, caught in a martyr style while resentment festers underneath.
The stance of the persecutor is “It’s all your fault!” Persecutors criticize and blame the victim, set strict limits, can be controlling, rigid, authoritative, angry and unpleasant. They keep the victim feeling oppressed through threats and bullying.
In terms of resilience, persecutors can’t bend, can’t be flexible, can’t be vulnerable, can’t be human; they fear the risk of being a victim themselves. Persecutors yell and criticize but they don’t actually solve any problems or help anyone else solve the problem.
These are the most extreme versions of these three roles, but we can encounter people playing milder versions of these roles on a pretty regular basis.
The three roles on the victim triangle are Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim. Karpman placed these three roles on an inverted triangle and described them as being the three aspects, or faces of victim. No matter where we may start out on the triangle, victim is where we end up, therefore no matter what role we’re in on the triangle, we’re in victimhood. If we’re on the triangle we’re living as victims, plain and simple!
The basic glitch in society is the delusion that "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" means accepting that one abuse permits another abuse, all big and repetitive Stockholm Syndrome session.
Only it is known that putting the enlightening I in place of the benighting I; reveals the difference between healthy and diseased wisdom, so that less compassionate blindness and less intimate hunger is recognised as a realistic choice.
Drawing attention to the prevalence of abusive conformity in order to instead appreciate and celebrate individuality as being sacred, is by no means an easy task, and you chose to do so.
Yay BlueRay as an individual, and as community member please stay as that would be another yay! Okay?
Thanks Deepthought and I agree with everything you’ve written above.
And just for clarity (not for your benefit Deepthought), I do not think a victim is a ‘bad’ person or that their suffering is not real or valid and what I have been saying about it recently, does not mean I do not have undying love and compassion for people who have been the ‘victims’ of another person’s abuse or harm or whatever etc etc etc.
I have compassion and love for all of humanity, so of course that would include people who are temporarily or even permanently playing the role of a victim.
And I have never said the victim status, is a permanent fixture. It can change at any time, as soon as the person decides to change it.
And I would rather help somebody to get out of the state of victimhood - because as Deepthought pointed out, this state can and does easily and quickly move through the victimhood triangle as well, where it can get deeply sordid in so many ways ~ so I would rather help somebody (in the only way that I can) and be hated and hung up to die, literally, and be called all the names under the sun, than encourage the continuation of this state, and be seen as what some people call a ‘nice’ ‘caring’ and ‘compassionate’ person.
I don’t care what people think about me. But I do care about people and if I have an opportunity to put ‘my’ perspective on things [which may or may not] help another person, then I will.
And no, ‘victims’ are NOT beneath me. I am not better than them. I have been a victim just like most, if not all of us. They are no better or worse than anybody else, it is simply a state they are assuming, for the duration of the time they are believing their story of being a victim, which for a period of time, is a wholly and necessary and vital part of recovery, but it has an end date and it’s not that long.
And yes, it might be just one decision a person makes (to move out of victimhood) but to move from the state of victimhood to one of taking responsibility for oneself, can be and is, for most people, a process and one that can take many years. But that process can’t even begin until the person recognises their victimhood status.
However, my mind operates on a different level to most peoples. That’s not good or bad, although at times, of course, it is both good and bad, but in truth, it is just the way it is.
I see victimhood, from the position of a ‘mindset’ because that’s how my mind works and understands the world. When I’m experiencing difficulties, I do tend to talk more and having a place where I can talk, is immensely helpful to me, but only if I am talking as me. And the more I talk, the more mistakes I’m likely to make, but most people tell me straight when I’ve said something that upsets them in any way, and I guess I rely on others to do that, because when they do, the matter can be sorted out and I will always apologise for my part.
I clearly seem invincible to some people, as if I’m not even human. As if I am somehow devoid of feelings. But as every empath will know, if anything, my feelings could be said to be even more delicate than others.
For most of my life, I didn’t think I was human being or that I could ever be one. Because no matter how hard I tried and suffered, I could not get my ‘talking’ quite right, according to others.
I don’t easily follow the ‘normal’ rules of conversation etc (or the normal rules of life) I get excited and butt in and I talk about weird stuff etc and when, my 50 plus years of effort did finally succeed in me ‘fitting in’ I was left with not a single reason to live.
I discovered that if I couldn’t be me, I didn’t want to live. Not in a sad sorrowful way, but because, seriously, what is the point?
However, when I got my diagnosis, I realised that I was a human being afterall, it was just that I am wired differently to most people.
I struck gold when I found this community. And despite not always understanding me and even thinking I really am cutting it a bit close to the edge sometimes, I was still accepted and loved, for all my humanness and autism, for all my messiness and my changing moods and clumsiness and getting it wrong sometimes etc etc etc.
But when I am told, by my own community, that if I want to communicate with them, I have to think differently, talk differently and fit in with their rules etc. Then yes, that cuts deep.
I don’t ‘blame’ anyone for how I feel, but the feeling of not feeling like I am a part of this world, is still relatively raw.
I only got my diagnosis a little over a year ago so I can still feel it. Despite what some people think, I am human and I do have feelings and I won’t be in a position where I’m defending myself. I would rather die. Literally.
However, I’m not going to take my life. Instead, because of the love and support of the people on this forum, I can instead, take a more balanced approach. Killing myself, is a little extreme, even for me!
So instead, I’ll take some time out, lick my wounds, work on them and heal them and hopefully be accepted back here (by the majority anyway) when I’m feeling better.
I can’t stay when I’m second guessing everything I think and say, which I’m already doing. That just feels like I’m back in the lions den. I worked hard to get out of that. I had to give everything I had, from a worldly perspective, in order to reach this place of clarity. But I didn’t do it alone.
Anybody who was around when I first arrived here, distraught, sobbing and suicidal, knows how far I’ve come. They know how much their support, understanding, love, encouragement, knowledge and awareness helped me. Helped piece me back together. So it’s hard for me to stay away, you gave me so much that I can’t help but want to give back. Not only that, you are also my friends, I love you. And I’m still a baby, I’m still learning and I learn more from you guys than I do from anywhere else, I still need you
I also get to laugh, have fun, share stories, be vulnerable and get that validation and feedback that is so important to ALL human beings, nt or nd. And as I’ve got to know people, I’ve grown to love and care for them, even the children of the parents we hear from, from time to time, but never meet.
This is more than a ‘comminity’ to me, as I’m sure I overstate sometimes in my over emotional way. So I don’t want to stay away. But as I’ve said, I won’t compromise myself. I can’t. I’m still relatively raw. I’m still in burnout. And as Elli said, for all my supposed awareness, as many of you know, I’m just the same as everyone else, doing my best, to come to terms with, to accept and understand and adapt my life according to this new found awareness and I can’t do that if I’m second guessing everything I say and do on here. Always being scared I’m going to offend or hurt someone. Scared I’ll post in the wrong place. Say the wrong thing. Break the rules etc etc.
So I really do appreciate all the support you’ve given me. I needed and do still need it. I’m going to go and do some worksheets. I’ve got some radical self forgiveness worksheets to do and I’m getting stuck into and enjoying doing Byron Katie’s worksheets. So I’m gonna be kept busy for a while.
And because of Christmas and the pip appeal etc, I haven’t been on one of my beloved walks for such a long long time, so I want to get outside, into nature, my medicine, and heal my poorly wounds
I love you and hope to see (actually, yes, see) and chat with you all soon.
Keep up the good fight ;) X
I think that we'd all like to be our true selves all the time if we could. I suspect a lot of our problems come from being forced by society into situations where we don't fit - like schools and jobs - where we have to put on a mask to get by and act professionally to our colleagues.
I think living a life of duality eventually takes its toll.
I don't think any of us want to be a victim or a bully, I think we'd all just prefer a simpler life.
... and that’s my life’s work. I help people to do what I did. To find within themselves whatever they need to be themselves. To heal their wounds and live and enjoy the simple life in a way that is uniquely suited to them.
But we do ‘choose’ to be victims. Everything we do comes from a choice, whether conscious or not, and because we are benefits driven creatures, often the key to freedom can be in finding the benefits we’re getting from being the victim.
For example, a close knit shared community where people are on hand, night and day, to play along with all the facets of the victim story, such as, to give hugs and kisses and pats on the back, etc etc etc.
It can mean you’ll never fail in life because you’ll never try because your victim status exempts you from that. There are many many reasons why we choose to play the victim, especially in today’s fast paced and increasingly divided society.
But whether we are consciously aware of it or not, it is always a choice. We might not chose, for example, for someone to rape us, but we do chose our response to that. When the act is over, it’s over. It doesn’t make us a victim. After the event, we can heal, learn and grow from it or we can choose to carry that event in our minds and make it a part of our identity, our new status, the status of victimhood, or we can let it go.
And no, it’s not as easy as that. I never said it was. But most things worth fighting for, often don’t come easily, and for me anyway, my freedom was worth fighting for.