I was diagnosed with Asperger's around ten years ago, at the age of forty. Up until then I'd only heard occasional references to it, yet they all matched up with me so well that I felt I needed to find out for sure, so got a referral from my G.P.
And it was a revelation to me, discovering that I'm not just a bundle of random weirdness, but actually a very consistent specimen of the Asperger's species.
Partly why I've joined this forum is a phrase that's kept ringing in my head "Normal people scare me". For a long time I didn't know what it referred to, and yet, it really struck a chord. Not that I'm outwardly "scared", but certainly there's an underlying nervousness whenever I have to interact with anyone other than family or very close friends. And looking the phrase up, yes, I discover it's the name of a documentary film all about the Autistic spectrum.
And partly I'm here to confide in you, my fellow freaks. Because, underneath my calm, good-natured exterior I'm really quite angry and about the way I've been treated all my life. Constantly excluded from the normal social world; so often finding myself hated by people despite doing nothing (that I'm aware of) to trigger it; finding it very hard to fit into work environments. About the latter, it's almost comical the way that some companies preach a very accommodating ethic, yet they can be so unyielding when presented with Asperger's type behaviour. I work in IT, and a previous large company I worked for had a procedure where new software requirements were discussed round a table with the in-house clients. I'd just joined this software development team, so I was a newbie to the platform in question. My two fellow developers had years of experience. And yet I found myself being reprimanded for not "saying stuff" in the meetings. Reprimanded!!! How can that happen??? This newbie, trying his best to understand the requirements, which he hasn't seen until sitting there in the meeting, and trying to digest what the experienced developers are saying about how the requirements can be accommodated into the existing system. All this uses every modicum of my conscious focus. And yet I'm expected to say stuff as well??? To make useful remarks??? It even got to the stage where I found myself threatened with disciplinary action over it - which prompted my resignation. (And that really sucks, considering that my computer programming abilities were second to none).
Anyone might say "Why not just tell them you have Asperger's syndrome?" Well it's never been as simple as that. In fact, it's a lose-lose situation. If I tell them I have Asperger's then, yes, they'll be obliged to make special allowances. But the payback is that my personality, as seen by others, is lost. Everything I do will be scrutinised as "is that because he has Asperger's syndrome?" Going from being seen as just a weird person, I'm instead perceived as disabled ...a cripple. Little short of a "retard".
And that's also the strange irony with Asperger's... socially I am a "retard" (although not so much now, as I've learnt to adapt). But other skills I have are significantly superior to the average person's. I.e. my design skills; my spatial awareness; my ability to conceptualise 3-d structures in my mind, my ability to construct algorithms. Sorry, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, just to convey the fact that although I have deficiencies in some ways, I also have other abilities that more than compensate.
It angers me that I (we) have been forced to operate in a world that doesn't understand us, doesn't appreciate us, and to have to bend ourselves to fit into it. We shouldn't be seen as misfits. We should be proud members of our own Asperger's species. Because that's really what it amounts to - we are different to them, but very consistent among ourselves.
I certainly wouldn't want to be any other way. To be "normal" would mean being a completely different person, and losing the things about myself which I regards as most precious. What I'd like is to see Asperger's being more widely recognised and appreciated. Not as a disability, but instead as a respectable "differentness".
Hi - welcome aboard.
Your post reflects my experience in the workplace too. I'm a CEng but I've spent my life being used and abused by the NTs because of my Asperger's.
Can you be absolutely sure, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that they used and abused you because you have Asperger or could it maybe have been that in those situations you were unable to stand up for yourself?
If your theory is true, it would mean that they would use and abuse me as well but I can assure you, they wouldn't, so there’s a flaw in your theory.
I don't want to insult you, but you seem live in a tiny bubble and are totally clueless and unable to understand anyone else's lives - especially those with responsibilities.
If you actually understood the weaknesses that Asperger people have with communication when they are being manipulated by narcissists then you wouldn't post such facile statements.
I think you’ve just described autism! And yes, I am autistic, so you’re right!
But I do understand other people’s lives. I learned this skill. I understand them very well. I studied social work and that sort of thing and became a very good, highly sought after and very well paid social worker and mental health nurse practitioner, so I not only understand the lives of others, but I’m also very good at helping them to create better lives for themselves.
I understand the difficulties that autistic people have with communication because I’m autistic and share those difficulties. The difference is, I never blamed my difficulties on anybody else. I owned them.
When I was getting raped, time and time again, because I didn’t understand the signals or what was going on, I didn’t blame the men who were raping me. I decided that I was going to learn to protect myself and look after myself no matter what it took or I would simply end my life. So I probably succeeded because my life, quite literally, depended on it. My first step was to stay away from all men. This was hard for me because I have always hung out with guys more than females. But if I didn’t want to get raped, that’s what I had to do and that’s what I did. I’m still vulnerable, but over the years, I’ve learned enough to be able to keep myself relatively safe while still enjoying the company of males. That’s just one example. It wouldn’t enter my head to blame somebody else for something I couldn’t do, that doesn’t make sense to me and it takes away what power and control I have.
Says it all.
And just for the record, you can’t insult me, you don’t have the power to do that, only I have that power.
Sure does. When we blame other people for our difficulties we give away our power and we become victims and people then treat us as victims. It’s a vicious cycle.
But I do understand other people’s lives.
No, you really don't. You think you do. There's a big difference.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that point.
And all I’m effectively saying here, is if I blame somebody else for anything to do with me or my life, I instantly become a victim and other people will then treat me as a victim and it’s a vicious cycle.
If on the other hand, I take responsibility for myself, whether I like what is happening to me or not and whether I can do anything about it or not, that doesn’t come into this. The second I blame somebody else, I give away any power I had and I become a victim and from there on end the story is predictable. Victims don’t achieve anything much in life because they have already given away any power they had and might have built on, because it was less painful to blame somebody else than admitting I’m absolutely hopeless with communication, I have no idea why, I don’t understand what’s going on with me or why people are treating me like this, I don’t know where to get help etc etc and deciding to do something about it rather than blame others, which sets my fate pretty clearly.
I find this constant hair-splitting - such as 'People's lives aren't different. We all have the same life.' - to be really tiresome. Likewise, your amazement that people worry about such trivial things (to you) as paying bills.
I'm not talking about metaphysical or biological lives. I'm talking about real lives - the differences that people have in terms of their experiences, and what those experiences can add up to and do. You may have experienced some horrific traumas in your own life, which is a terrible thing. But we all respond to things very, very differently. Some of us pick ourselves up, find some form of enlightenment, and move on. Others of us don't. Does that mean we're weak? That we're misguided? Or does it mean that we're less resilient?
We've had this discussion before - about how, for instance, you seemed to regard homelessness as some kind of liberating and transcendental experience. Good for you. You've come to the place you are in life, with the understanding you have, as a result of so many factors. But, of course, you're going to take issue with that. True understanding about the lives of others means being able to look beyond your own particular psychological, spiritual, emotional and circumstantial experience and accept that others have not had such experiences. Or, if they have, they still might not be adapted - possibly as a result of individual neurology - to respond to them in the same way. We can't all see being supported by the state as a positive thing. We can't all see not being able to pay essential bills as nothing to worry about. We don't all have places of refuge to go to when things get really bad. I'm sure you do understand this at some level, and I know you mean well. But you come across sometimes as if you are the only person who has all the answers, and that anyone else's perspective is somehow faulty, inconsistent or otherwise questionable. Is it any wonder, then, that people sometimes get tired and irritated by it?
Martian Tom said:You've come to the place you are in life, with the understanding you have, as a result of so many factors. But, of course, you're going to take issue with that.
What makes you think I’d take issue with that? I couldn’t agree more or have said it any better myself.
You don’t have to see being supported by the state as a good thing. You are free to see the fact that somebody is giving you money to live as a bad thing, that’s your choice. I happen to be grateful for it and I don’t see how my gratitude makes other people weak? Other people don’t come into it. I’m grateful, that’s all I’m saying because without that money, my life would be a lot more difficult and it’s difficult as it is, living with autism and ADHD. And if people want to worry about not being able to pay their bills, let them. I learned that whether I worried or not my bills still didn’t get paid so why worry? I’m in a better position to do something about not being able to pay my bills when I’m thinking clear and my mind isn’t full of worry. Worry used to devestate my life in so many ways so I learned how not to do it and now it seems a ridiculous thing to do, to me.
The only places of refuge I ever had or have, are a shop doorway, if I’m lucky, and my mind.
I come across as someone who has all the answers TO YOU ~ other people will all see me in their own way as well. I can’t control how everybody sees me. If people get tired and irritated by me, I do have a good solution for them ~ don’t communicate or have anything to do with me. Some do some don’t. I like to get on with all people and I love talking to people who have different views from me, how else do I learn? But I can’t control other people who have all these judgements etc going on which says people can only speak and be liked if they say what they want to hear.
I’m constantly seeking out people who know more than me, which is everybody, because none of us can know more than we know and if somebody knows something we don’t know then they know more than us and I want to share their knowledge and wisdom etc. Everyone is our teacher, when you know you’re the student. Life to me isn’t a game I win or loose but an experience in which I can learn from everybody, if my mind is open to it and not full of rules and judgements and blaming. I love unconditionally because who am I to not love unconditionally?
Oh, and I don’t even know what you mean by hair splitting? Is that another way of saying we have different views, different ways of experienceing and interpreting the world? If so, how do we stop that? Do we all pretend to be like each other? I don’t understand it? And if we do all pretend to be like each other and experience the world the same way, say the same things etc who’s way do we follow and model ourselves on?
Victims don’t achieve anything much in life because they have already given away any power they had and might have built on, because it was less painful to blame somebody else
Actually, there can be power in blaming, and indeed at times it is necessary in order to protect others from harm (see for example some of the victim impact statements from the Nassar case). If we never blamed people for their actions then there really would be no point in having laws...
Further, what about when a victim is blameless (e.g. a small child who is abused)? How is it that they need to acknowledge some form of responsibility for their abuse or they won’t ‘achieve anything much in life’.
Sitting and wallowing in sorrow for yourself is not healthy, no, but just because you place some form of blame on someone for something, doesn’t mean you can’t have a completely successful life with a healthy way of thinking afterwards.
Thank you for your conversation.
Can you tell me an actual situation, that you have experienced, where blaming somebody or something for your upset, or suffering, or whatever it is you’re blaming them for, that brings more love, compassion, understanding, giving, peace and forgiveness into the world?
Your discussion about the little baby being abused, wasn’t clear to me at first. But I think you’re saying, that a baby, who doesn’t know what a victim is, who can’t even probably speak the word, is thinking and believing that they’re a victim? Is that what you’re saying?
If so, I would hazzard a guess that the baby is doing whatever it’s doing. That it’s not actually sitting around saying I’m a victim. So therefore it isn’t. It has simply had a dreadful thing happen to it and it needs the people around it to love it and look after it with kindness and compassion. It need never grow up believing it was a victim if nobody tells them that that’s what they were.
A child can NEVER assume responsibility. We do that when we grow up.
How do you feel when you are blaming somebody for something? Do you feel full of compassion and humility, towards the person you’re blaming? Do you feel at peace? With a clear and open and forgiving feeling? Are we treating the person how we ourselves would wish to be treated? Are we bringing more love into the world?
The case I already referred to demonstrates where blaming has brought more love etc. into the World - those involved have pulled together, comforted each other in ways many of them had never experienced before, fought for change for future generations of athletes, assisted others in need etc., all with a positive attitude despite what they suffered. That can’t be seen as a negative.
An abused baby is a victim if they think of themselves as one or not. Victim - ‘a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action’. My point was that you said victims ‘don’t achieve anything much in life’ as they have blamed someone else, and I consider that completely unfair to say about a victim that can’t even blame and had no fault in the event themselves, such as a child being abused.
It appears that we have a different understanding of the word ‘victim’. You can by the definition be a victim without considering yourself one...
When I have personally blamed someone for something then I have treated them politely and indeed how I would wish to be treated. There was no hatred or anger involved and I did forgive them, though I can’t forget what they did. Unfortunately, despite my manners, the same cannot be said for the individuals concerned. They were continually abusive, vindictive, rude and insulting towards me despite it being them not me who had broken the law and them knowing it. Even the Judge remarked on their ‘offensive’ comments...you see, no matter how hard you try to bring peace and love into certain situations, it doesn’t always work out, whether there is blame involved or not!
It’s not clear to me, from your example, how specifically ‘blame’ played a part in that situation.
A person who does not believe themselves to be a victim, is not, in their eyes (the only eyes that actually matter to them) a victim, just because somebody else says they are. Period.
They only become a victim, when they themselves, believe themselves to be a victim, not when somebody else says they are.
So if a little baby or young child, does not believe itself to be a victim, they are not victims, no matter how many people say they are.
Yes, they may have been recipients of atrocities committed against them, but that in itself, doesn’t make them victims. It’s a judgement call and only that person can say whether they see themselves as a victim, or not. No matter how many other people say they are.
Again, a child who has been abused, can be seen as a victim in the eyes of everybody else, but if that child doesn’t believe it’s a victim, then it isn’t. No matter how many people say it is.
A person can feel like a victim, if that’s who they believe they are. If they say, I’m a victim, then yes, they are.
But if they say ‘I’m not a victim. I don’t see things the way you do’. It doesn’t matter what the dictionary says, they’re not a victim. Then how can somebody else say they are?
A person can, as you say, by the definition, be a victim without considering themselves to be one BUT ONLY from the point of view of the person saying they’re a victim. The person themselves, only become a victim, i.e. take on the identity of a victim, once they themselves believe themselves to be a victim, not when somebody else says they are.
You say you blamed somebody and then you forgave them but that you won’t forget what they did.
So in short. You hold that person responsible for how you feel? They made you feel bad and just to prove how bad they made you feel, you will go on feeling bad for the rest of your life, even after the other person has long even forgotten the incident.
And this is not me criticising you, but who exactly gave you licence to judge people, hold them responsible for how you feel, and then forgive them? We don’t give forgiveness to others. That’s not our job. We don’t have that gift.
It sounds like your forgiveness, love, compassion and understanding might not have come from the heart? It sounds as though you may have sort of forgiven them, in the hopes that they won’t repeat the same behaviour again? It doesn’t work like that.
If we are going to forgive somebody, we have to forget. How many times do we want them to pay? Do we want to make them suffer, every time we look at them? Instead of meeting them with love? Regardless of how many times they appear to not be showing love? Do we only give love to those who love us? Do we only give love when somebody shows us love, and not before?
If you live from a place of love, you literally have nothing else to give. So you give love regardless. And sometimes you get it back. And sometimes you don’t. And sometimes you get it back in unexpected ways, and from somebody else. A stranger maybe. Who smiled at you and somehow, made you forget about killing yourself.
Anyway, I’m not one to usually bail out of a conversation. But I have no wish, to ‘prove’ my point. Because I haven’t got one. I thought we were talking but I feel like I’m almost at the point of defending what I’ve said, rather than just having a friendly conversation. And I have no wish to do that. I would rather have just a friendly conversation,
And I’m coming off here for a while now because I can see that my world view, provokes something, in some people, that doesn’t feel like love, to me. So I bow out gracefully. And thank you for your conversation this evening. I found it stimulating and exciting and I hope you got something out of it as well.
Martian Tom said:
But I do understand other people’s lives.
Former Member does understand people's lives in that understanding as such involves previous experience with and knowledge of people.
The difficulty here being addressed involves by degree a lack of 'comprehension' ~ as refers to the relativity of what is understood and applies experientially from different perspectives.
If that helps any?
I think the thing is, I live in a completely different dimension to most people. I see nothing but beauty, love and kindness in the world. Which does not mean I'm in denial to other stuff going on - which I know someone else will mention if I don't! ~ see, I'm already in defence mode!
It just means I live in a different dimension, or dimensions, I don't just live in one, which I know is difficult, if not impossible, for some people to understand and sometimes I feel so relaxed while I'm on this site and I'm enjoying myself so much, that I forget that people are trying to understand me from their perspective when I'm writing from my own. Then it just gets weird and I feel like I'm defending what I've said, and to me, that no longer feels good and I'm not surprised, because defence is the first act of war.
One example ~ I feel deep gratitude to be living in a country that supports me financially, while I'm experiencing severe burnout, which goes far deeper than just being thankful for the money. It means so much more than that.
And this is just one example. But because the social security system isn't as perfect or whatever as some people would like it to be or because I should maybe feel ashamed for being in receipt of benefits, people have a go at me for saying how happy I am to be fortunate enough to be experiencing my burnout in a country that does support me. It gets ridiculous and it's like I'm almost defending myself for being grateful that the government is supporting me while I'm not currently in a situation to support myself financially.
The thing about me not understanding people is silly. I wouldn't be so good at my job if I didn't understand people. But again, it's ridiculous that a simple, and what I thought was an enjoyable and stimulating conversation, has again, come back to me defending myself and I'm not prepared to do that. As much as I enjoy coming on here I'm not coming on if I'm spending my time defending myself and (without any intent) upsetting people.
I don't like that feeling of defending myself and maybe that is what I'm doing to others too, without realising it. I don't know. Maybe I make them feel that they have to defend what they say, which I'm definitely not trying to do. I can only speak for myself and it doesn't feel good to me so I'm not doing it.
At least I haven't had any death threats this time and I don't think I quiet got to be in the number one most hated person status on here so maybe that's a clue to get out before it gets to that stage!
I don't know. I don't feel good and my intention is never to upset anybody and if people are getting upset by what I'm saying then I will leave because I don't want to abandon myself and simply change me world view so it fits in line with other people's and I don't risk somebody getting upset by something I say.