Am I evil?

I dont care.  I think people who are anti vax may still benefit us all by getting covid and maybe removing their deficient genes from the gene pool.  At the very least they will add to the herd immunity.  This world is survival of the fittest and I will take whatever edge i can get to be in a better position than others.  If that comes as a vaccine that gives me 80% immunity to a virus that is more deadly than ebola, I will take it.  If you dont want to, thats your business, but I think those that choose to say no with no good reason should not be eligible to use the NHS if they get Covid.  They should be taken off somewhere and left to either fight it off or die.

People do things that are bad for their health all the time but we don't suggest that they should be denied the NHS. I for example cannot stop eating food that is bad for me. I love Indian takeaway, cake, biscuits and crisps. I was already considered overweight pre-pandemic and I've since gained another stone in weight thanks to working from home and not having to move very much. 

Well actually they won't treat drug addicts ,smokers and the obese for a range of conditions.Unless they change there ways. And they woldn't give my daughter a brace because she sucked her thumb.

To be honest I think the only hope for our social care system right now is nationalisation and transition to a system that's free at the point of use like the NHS. Phase out the state pension but provide free social care to everyone who needs it. Given current government policy I find this unlikely.

I'd like everyone in contact with vulnerable people to be vaccinated fully but the problem is that our social care system is already struggling for people to do the work and many of them aren't paid more than supermarket workers, so why bother being forced to have a vaccine when you can go and stack shelves in Asda instead (or any other retailer). Then we are left without enough care staff.

You can force people to have a vaccine (maybe) but you can't choose their job for them too. 

In terms of moral philosophy its not nearly so simple as you make out. Ok so say you vaccinate a million people. It turns out that you're own really protecting a million people. If one of those people refuses the vaccine their really only hurting themselves. but in a country of 66 million + people like the uk if you vaccinate 10s of millions you start having a knock on effect where even people who don't get vaccinated get some protection because the virus can't spread as easily. but again one person among 10s of millions doesn't have a big effect. But if a lot of people think that way then the uptake of vaccine could be lower by millions. It's one of those situation where if you look at it in terms of individual responsibility your choices don't have much impact beyond yourself but collectively peoples choices can have a huge impact beyond themselves.

The problem is how far can the proximate cause of a negative consequence be from the consequence before the actor is no longer responsible. I mean you know if you drop your bananas peel on the floor it's a trip hazard but would you say if some one slips on your banana peel, cracks their head and dies this person has been passively murdered? Yet you know banana peels occasionally lead to trips and trips occasionally kill people but there are 2 layers of IFs there, if they trip, if the trip kills them. With vaccination there are 3 layers of IFs, if you catch the virus, IF you pass it on, IF the virus kills them. Actually its an almost infinite layer of IFs because IF they catch the virus they may also pass it on and on.

That's what makes the problem so morally complicated.

In ordinary times I would have gone with a do what you want, but these aren't ordinary times.  The ramifications of not having one of the vaccines is real people dying.  Whether its the person who refused the vaccine or the people around them they passively murdered by transferring the virus to them, people will die.  Maybe this could be dealt with on some level with vaccine passports and it will for foreign travel, as many countries around the world are now talking about letting people with a vaccine passport go straight into a country with minimal or no quarantine and without, well a 14 day quarantine seems to be the norm.  If vaccine passports were compulsory to use and access services within the country, then at least we could keep the diseased and deniers away from the more responsible end of society.  The current trials will more than likely result in a passport system probably using biometrics (the only sane way of implementing it).  No need to carry cards, just scan your handprint and go to the pub.

I am in the high risk group, for the record.  If I get Covid it will probably kill me.  So to be honest I want a list of people that I should never go near.  I want to know who they are and where they are before they get anywhere near me, so I can avoid problems.

I'm a social worker and support plenty of people with these kinds of issues for free though. We still pay for them whether it is through health care or social care. 

I'm a social worker and support plenty of people with these kinds of issues for free though. We still pay for them whether it is through health care or social care. 

To be honest I think the only hope for our social care system right now is nationalisation and transition to a system that's free at the point of use like the NHS. Phase out the state pension but provide free social care to everyone who needs it. Given current government policy I find this unlikely.

I'd like everyone in contact with vulnerable people to be vaccinated fully but the problem is that our social care system is already struggling for people to do the work and many of them aren't paid more than supermarket workers, so why bother being forced to have a vaccine when you can go and stack shelves in Asda instead (or any other retailer). Then we are left without enough care staff.

You can force people to have a vaccine (maybe) but you can't choose their job for them too. 

In terms of moral philosophy its not nearly so simple as you make out. Ok so say you vaccinate a million people. It turns out that you're own really protecting a million people. If one of those people refuses the vaccine their really only hurting themselves. but in a country of 66 million + people like the uk if you vaccinate 10s of millions you start having a knock on effect where even people who don't get vaccinated get some protection because the virus can't spread as easily. but again one person among 10s of millions doesn't have a big effect. But if a lot of people think that way then the uptake of vaccine could be lower by millions. It's one of those situation where if you look at it in terms of individual responsibility your choices don't have much impact beyond yourself but collectively peoples choices can have a huge impact beyond themselves.

The problem is how far can the proximate cause of a negative consequence be from the consequence before the actor is no longer responsible. I mean you know if you drop your bananas peel on the floor it's a trip hazard but would you say if some one slips on your banana peel, cracks their head and dies this person has been passively murdered? Yet you know banana peels occasionally lead to trips and trips occasionally kill people but there are 2 layers of IFs there, if they trip, if the trip kills them. With vaccination there are 3 layers of IFs, if you catch the virus, IF you pass it on, IF the virus kills them. Actually its an almost infinite layer of IFs because IF they catch the virus they may also pass it on and on.

That's what makes the problem so morally complicated.

In ordinary times I would have gone with a do what you want, but these aren't ordinary times.  The ramifications of not having one of the vaccines is real people dying.  Whether its the person who refused the vaccine or the people around them they passively murdered by transferring the virus to them, people will die.  Maybe this could be dealt with on some level with vaccine passports and it will for foreign travel, as many countries around the world are now talking about letting people with a vaccine passport go straight into a country with minimal or no quarantine and without, well a 14 day quarantine seems to be the norm.  If vaccine passports were compulsory to use and access services within the country, then at least we could keep the diseased and deniers away from the more responsible end of society.  The current trials will more than likely result in a passport system probably using biometrics (the only sane way of implementing it).  No need to carry cards, just scan your handprint and go to the pub.

I am in the high risk group, for the record.  If I get Covid it will probably kill me.  So to be honest I want a list of people that I should never go near.  I want to know who they are and where they are before they get anywhere near me, so I can avoid problems.