Am I evil?

To be honest I think the only hope for our social care system right now is nationalisation and transition to a system that's free at the point of use like the NHS. Phase out the state pension but provide free social care to everyone who needs it. Given current government policy I find this unlikely.

I'd like everyone in contact with vulnerable people to be vaccinated fully but the problem is that our social care system is already struggling for people to do the work and many of them aren't paid more than supermarket workers, so why bother being forced to have a vaccine when you can go and stack shelves in Asda instead (or any other retailer). Then we are left without enough care staff.

You can force people to have a vaccine (maybe) but you can't choose their job for them too. 

In terms of moral philosophy its not nearly so simple as you make out. Ok so say you vaccinate a million people. It turns out that you're own really protecting a million people. If one of those people refuses the vaccine their really only hurting themselves. but in a country of 66 million + people like the uk if you vaccinate 10s of millions you start having a knock on effect where even people who don't get vaccinated get some protection because the virus can't spread as easily. but again one person among 10s of millions doesn't have a big effect. But if a lot of people think that way then the uptake of vaccine could be lower by millions. It's one of those situation where if you look at it in terms of individual responsibility your choices don't have much impact beyond yourself but collectively peoples choices can have a huge impact beyond themselves.

The problem is how far can the proximate cause of a negative consequence be from the consequence before the actor is no longer responsible. I mean you know if you drop your bananas peel on the floor it's a trip hazard but would you say if some one slips on your banana peel, cracks their head and dies this person has been passively murdered? Yet you know banana peels occasionally lead to trips and trips occasionally kill people but there are 2 layers of IFs there, if they trip, if the trip kills them. With vaccination there are 3 layers of IFs, if you catch the virus, IF you pass it on, IF the virus kills them. Actually its an almost infinite layer of IFs because IF they catch the virus they may also pass it on and on.

That's what makes the problem so morally complicated.

In ordinary times I would have gone with a do what you want, but these aren't ordinary times.  The ramifications of not having one of the vaccines is real people dying.  Whether its the person who refused the vaccine or the people around them they passively murdered by transferring the virus to them, people will die.  Maybe this could be dealt with on some level with vaccine passports and it will for foreign travel, as many countries around the world are now talking about letting people with a vaccine passport go straight into a country with minimal or no quarantine and without, well a 14 day quarantine seems to be the norm.  If vaccine passports were compulsory to use and access services within the country, then at least we could keep the diseased and deniers away from the more responsible end of society.  The current trials will more than likely result in a passport system probably using biometrics (the only sane way of implementing it).  No need to carry cards, just scan your handprint and go to the pub.

I am in the high risk group, for the record.  If I get Covid it will probably kill me.  So to be honest I want a list of people that I should never go near.  I want to know who they are and where they are before they get anywhere near me, so I can avoid problems.

I'm a social worker and support plenty of people with these kinds of issues for free though. We still pay for them whether it is through health care or social care. 

Well actually they won't treat drug addicts ,smokers and the obese for a range of conditions.Unless they change there ways. And they woldn't give my daughter a brace because she sucked her thumb.

Nothing we do is done in a vacuum. If you abuse your body then you put pressure on the NHS that could be otherwise avoided and what also causes delays for people who have tried to be healthy and still fallen sick. 

I'm just playing devil's advocate though. I'd like everyone to be vaccinated, although the fears some people have are perfectly understandable. As a young woman I'd be wary of a new vaccine if I hadn't already finished having my children. There ARE unknowns. I'd still like to think I'd take the risk and have the vaccine but that's easy for me to say. 

I've got my second vaccine next Tuesday and I'll be very happy to have it. 

It's your body you get to decide ultimately. But if you look after people, live with elderly or regularly come in contact with others I could understand why people might advise it. I was worried about getting the vaccine but after getting the virus and having a really bad time with covid I couldn't wait to get the text to say come get it.

By eating too much you are harming yourself and no one else.

By not having a vaccine you are harming multiple others and putting them at risk.  Potentially murdering people by being selfish.

The two dont come close at all.  In one a person harms themselves, in another they are a passive murderer / serial killer.

But we live in a country where people can make that choice if they wish.  I also understand my view is unpopular, but I know a lot of people that would agree with me.  I also believe people going to raves and breaking the quarantine/lockdown should be doing a month in prison for each offence.  None of these namby pamby fines.  But real consequences for real actions.

People do things that are bad for their health all the time but we don't suggest that they should be denied the NHS. I for example cannot stop eating food that is bad for me. I love Indian takeaway, cake, biscuits and crisps. I was already considered overweight pre-pandemic and I've since gained another stone in weight thanks to working from home and not having to move very much. 

I dont care.  I think people who are anti vax may still benefit us all by getting covid and maybe removing their deficient genes from the gene pool.  At the very least they will add to the herd immunity.  This world is survival of the fittest and I will take whatever edge i can get to be in a better position than others.  If that comes as a vaccine that gives me 80% immunity to a virus that is more deadly than ebola, I will take it.  If you dont want to, thats your business, but I think those that choose to say no with no good reason should not be eligible to use the NHS if they get Covid.  They should be taken off somewhere and left to either fight it off or die.

I don't know whether or not you're evil, but not having the vaccine makes you very intelligent.  

I do know individuals who were positive, so I'm no denier. My concern for them, as friends, was immense.

However, there are quite a few smokes and mirrors along the way.

That why i mention medical reasons being an exception, i am sorry for your situation. And would not expect you to take the vaccine

if you are a healthy person who expects to remain on this earth a long time however, then whether you get the vaccine or not will be important and have an affect on the other people that your living with, including those who cant get the vaccine, whether you like it or not. 

its like this. If you are in the lower economic groups, lets say you are the sole breadwinner for your small children, and you must go to work, the higher ups wont allow working from home, or its not possible in your line of work, and you catch the virus, and end up inadvertently spreading it because you have no choice but to move about your day due to your countries shitty circumstances. No, you are not a murderer for having passed on the virus to someone else. But lets say you get infected, you are made aware you were exposed technically but you feel fine and still come into a job you’ve been asked to stay home from. You infect 5 other people. And someone dies. Are you a murderer then? I’d say so.

or the south korean train case, where a man brought lighter fluid and a lighter onto a train in 2003. He may have only meant to burn himself in suicide, or may have only meant to burn one small 6 carriage train. But poor regulations in the train system meant it spread to another train and killed 192 people. If he was only trying to kill himself but he fire spread to 192 people, did he still kill 192 people?

The difference in these situations are choice. That man still choose to come into work when he had the option to stay home, and someone directly died from that choice. The man still choose to light something on fire, and 192 lives were directly lost because of that.

If we need to reach herd immunity, and you are going to be on this earth long enough to a long term part of that herd, and you can get the vaccine but choose not to, you are lowering the percentage of the immune, lowering the effectiveness of herd immunity. That is a choice. (Again obviously excluding those who are dying, immunocompromised, elderly, allergic to eggs, have blood clotting issues, etc.)

You had the opportunity to protect others, are able to get the vaccine but choose not to. That is a choice that will put lives at risk scientifically. I’m not making a blackmailing claim. Thats the reality of those actions. If you can own up to it you are free to make what ever choice you want. I don't care at that point, as long as we are all being honest about what we are doing. if you decide to do something that will harm others? Yeah I expect you to take responsibility for that. This isnt a common flu, it does ruin lives.

We do technically have autonomy. one girl on the other side of a computer screen isn't blackmailing anything lol,  Y'all are grown men right? but you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t choose not to get the vaccine and then ignore the science and pretend like you aren’t hurting anyone. Not only are you lying to the people you hurt but you are lying to yourself as well.

and again if he’s comfortable with that choice, then im not blackmailing him, he can make that choice, but you better not make that choice without being aware of the effect it will have on others. I don’t see that as blackmail, simply taking responsibility for your actions.

Evil - no. Ignorant? Maybe a little.

Covid-19 is no joke. A couple of my dearest friends have pre-existing conditions and they could die from it if they got it. My friend's sister had it last year and since then she's been in and out of hospital due to failing organs. 

I'm not keen on that type of emotion blackmail.      Effectivley calling people murderers for not having the jab.

It's a personal thing - I wouldn't be having it under normal circumstances but I'm dying and I can't be arsed with the petty bureaucracy messing up my limited time while they fart about with covid passports and stopping people doing things.    

i look at it that what's the worst that can happen - it might kill me - but I'm also on blood thinning injections every day so I'll probably survive that - but I'm still dying anyway - it won;t make any difference to my outcome.

I dont think evil is the right word, i dont think there are many shades of grey here...but evil is really severe. 

i do think you should reconsider though.

covid is real, i suffered from it, its not just a flu, it does severe damage to lots of people, not just the elderly and those with preexisting conditions. I’m a 19 year old who was in athletic shape, i was healthy but even for healthy people i had a particularly strong immune system and all that. Covid still got me. Covid still gave me permanent lung damge. Its been almost 7 months since recovery and i cant even follow a schedule anymore since i’m so exhausted at the end of each day (from being out of breath constantly) that i cant tell when I’ll get up, and my mother tells me that every time she heres me in my sleep, it sounds like I’m suffocating, and i feel the impact of that to. Covid has permanently damaged a lot of me. And for others still it damages other parts of your body from brain to nose cells as well, and its mutating and spreading. Esoecially since britian made a variant i think you guys should be doing the utmost right now

its not a personal choice to get the vaccine i don’t think

you either should have a medical reason ( egg allergy, immune deficiency, etc. bloodclot issue like one respondent explained, etc.) or else its your public duty to get the vaccine. your decision to not get the vaccine does not only affect you. A vaccines purpose is to equally protect you AND build up herd immunity, i.e their effectiveness is best shown when substantial portions of the population are vaccinated. For some diseases it’s as low as 75-78% , for some diseases its as high as 94% of the population must be immune since the disease is so easily transmittable.

if you wanna dm or even on here request further info and ill provide it gladly, but the science is on my side here

i did everything right, i double masked, i social distanced  i was responsible, but one girl i know lied her test results. All it takes is one selfish person, you cant control what other people do which is why you cant just say “i didnt get the vaccine but I’ll be responsible.”. Because the only thing that is responsible enough to make up for not getting the vaccine is literally not physically interacting with anyone ever again.

and think about all those auto-immune folks who literally could die even if they are 5 yrs old, 10, 19, 25, 30 years old, because of someone else not being careful enough.

mistakes happen when we just put our faith in trusting each other to do the right thing, mistakes like that dont happen the same with herd immunity

i firmly believe you shouldn't get to make a choice in these types of matters. Its the same way where people get things like freedom of speech until they shout fire in a crowded theatre and risk peoples lives. You get to choose until you start risking other peoples lives. it is your civic duty therefore, to get the vaccine and you should morally reflect on what is stopping you from getting it and  all the people you will directly impact with that decision, visualize the faces of those elderly and autoimmune, such as those with cancer or pregnant women. all those lives you will inadvertently put at risk with your decision. 

i dont think your evil, sometimes we dont always think that far into things, and we just think “i dont want to get a shot right now”. I don’t  say all of this to imply you thought these things and then evily smirked and said “let them all die”, and i know especially with phobias it can be difficult, but even phobias shouldn't take lives either. Maybe thats not how you have been thinking about it; as a decision that could take a life, but that is what it is, so if you still decide not to go through with getting the vaccine, at least own up to that.  That your decision will cost either a life, or the lively hood of those who do not have a choice. And as long as you are comfortable with that decision than do what you want. But if you cant own up to that, that would be rather cowardly

in your specific case maybe discuss it with your GP then.

Thats the problem my step daughter has got blood clots from the pill and nearly died ,and my father had clots in his 50's [at the time he was running about 20miles a week] and my mother died of a clot in her brain. So all in all a bit worrying.

er the rate of blood clotting is less than the contraceptive pill. Boris may be an idiot ... but scientists are only sometimes idiots :P

Let me be frank. I used to work for the government, I know exactly how incompetent they are. However in my view their incompetence was in forcing this vaccine to jump through all the hoops we make vaccines go through when their isn't an emergency on. I feel on balance there was an argument that the government was over cautious with the vaccine and had some safety corners been cut many many more lives and livelihoods could have been saved.