I am having trouble accepting my diagnosis, because I present unusually even considering the disorder is a spectrum.

Hi EmpathicAutistic,

In my neurodiverse family we sometimes say "can't see the flaming obvious, can spot the Emperor's new clothes, generally needs lessons in avoiding offending the people who can't see the old man is butt naked" to describe the very well adapted adults who all score well into the AS range on AQ/EQ/SQ (side note: according to my SQ Im an autistic man - my diagnosis is dyspraxia and my gender is female!) but also end up doing jobs that demand sensitivity and empathy. The downside is we all tire very easily if expected to do a full 40 hours of "people time" in our jobs, so we get technical skills that mean we can do other stuff. All 4 siblings are of this mould. 

I think a lot of the issues around Empathy and TOM are ideas put forward by NT researchers, because they didn't see conventional signs of these skill...and now we have AS researchers coming through with ASD I think things might change

Hi R

Well are you implying I am delusional? I considered that myself... so maybe not? 

However, as I can actually do it, and I can impact things in reality, i.e. by reading someone, getting it right and say helping them. I would suggest that it's less to do with bizzare believes than a bizzare but ultimately "true" experience. 

Especially, as clinicians have noted that is the case, like PsychD so I suppose they are qualified to make the judgment I am empathetic or not, they said I was "extremely empathetic". People who work with me, friends, teachers when I was younger, I have observed evidence to suggest that I am probably not delusional.

Another example would be; I seem to be mildly amused by the idea of being an empath, now some (not all) but a lot of it does resemble schizotypal. 

Now I mean the perceptual and thought issues, like tangential and strange communication style and affect issues, yes. But no Bizzare believes, nor social anxiety. I am an event first aider, I have to be sociable, I mean it is difficult but I can do it. So it certainly not crippling, nor does it effect my functioning. 

This makes me think, it still resembles aspergers moreso than schizotypal. I mean I had a traumatic so I do probably have some cluster B and A personality disorder traits in there. Especially with my crazy abandonment issues, unstable mood, emotional sensitivity.. which isn't great for relationships, paranoia, self-harm and controlling issues. So clearly I am quite complicated, but to be fair I deal with it very well. I could be worse. 

EA

Hi maia 

I read all your replies to my post, I'm sorry I am a bit late. what is the name for your issue with facial expressions moving to fast to proccess? I have few questions which might point in a good direction.

Can you recognise people's faces you know, if you have trouble in this regard it doesn't have to be 100% of the time, but have you heard of face blindness or prosopagnasia? It is where your ability to recognise facial expressions is impaired. It is fairly common in autism. Have you also heard of Alexithymia, it occurs in 50% of autistics, it is a disorder characterised by the impairment of being able to recognise yours or others emotional states. 

(Sidenote: Recent research has suggested that researchers missed differentiating between alexithymic autistics and non-alexythymic autistics, what they found when they did make this distinction is that the latter group had normal or in some cases enhanced cognitive and affective empathy. As you can imagine not differentiating a major distinction which occurs in 50% of the autistic poppulation, means the ecological validity is deeply flawed, and may not even be representative of say the other 50% or both groups because they didn't control this variable.)

However, you mention you can see/proccess facial expressions better in photographs? Now I think this would rule out prosopagnasia/face blindness, because you can both recognise who it is and what facial expression it is. Maybe when things are happening in real life, instead of a photograph to focus on the facial expressions are part of your sensory experience, and because you are autistic, you have trouble proccessing it. So in real life, opposed to photographs you find it a lot harder because your brain is handling all this extra data, and intergrating, hence why they seem to move so fast. 

What do you think, do let me know? 

Hi EA,

Have you heard of schizotypal disorder (ICD10)/schizotypal personality disorder? It's easy to mix up with autism for some professionals. Your description of yourself just reminded me so much of the diagnostic criteria. But I'm only speaking as a layperson and am certainly not trying to diagnose you. Just another thing that might be interesting to you.

Take care and I hope you find answers to your questions.

R

"the ability to 'see past the mask' most people wear, coupled with intelligence and also highly focused observation skills and our abilities to 'mask' and mimic (you call it blurring) all feed into the 'array' of mental skills we have"

i don't have any of these, and also i can't see facial expressions on people's faces because they move too fast, i can in photos

Is there a name for this? (Mine not yours.) I'm really sick of not being autistic in this way at all, i really want a name or word or term for saying, 'i don't have (these abilities)'. Thanks a lot!

the bits they'd see in you that fit 'autistic' are: long nights searching the internet, few close friends, abnormal social interaction, relates intensely to tv characters, 'special interests' at obsessive level (maybe idk). 'Autistic' as a medical definition means 'comes across as weird in social situations'. There's also a current theory definition - 'no ToM' - and rival ones if you dig - that it's a mental illness, that it derives from having no memory of time, that it's the result of overwhelming sensory input. As you've studied psychology you'll understand what i'm about to say. Autism had a stable definition etc, but then in the 90s that Jessica Kingsley (?name- the publishers is hers) in the UK did a huge survey and found it was a whole spectrum of behaviours and people and that in fact females had it as often as males. So, a big, ecologically valid survey of a representative population etc. This threw the doors wide open. They're still trying to come up with a theoretical response: or rather, because it's open field but there's lots of information and it looks close to being solved, it's attracted lots of ambitious researchers and dons looking to become 'The One Who Solved Autism' (defined what it is). Simon Baron-Cohen is leader of the pack, like Daniel Dennett in philosophy (he and Paul Ekman are a huge part of why it's defined in the way it is, and you have to read up on them to fully understand this: Ekman is rather easier to read!), not because he's solved it but because his argument is a thousand times better exampled and logical than the nearest contender.

You have to pick if you accept the diagnosis or not. Personally, while i accept mine totally, i find it helps me nothing: there's no 'solution', no treatment or therapy, and it actually prevents me getting any help at all for my mental health problems (there's no specialist help in my two thirds of Wales and the Marches and you're not allowed to access non-specialist help, so you could be suicidal and tough, no help (i like whinging)). It's just a name. Any adult knows what's wrong with them, and they don't actually tell you how you come across as weird - if someone's going to bother to diagnose you as weirdly behaved, it would be nice if they told you what it was that stuck out!

In terms of autism, there are a couple of theoreticians who've written books which address it from your experience of the condition. One was a man with an autistic son who theorises it's about being sensorily over-stimulated, his research was just a blog five years ago when i found it but i'm sure it's progressed since then, and the other is Olga somebody who's written three books on amazon about autism as a triad of impairments, of which the one on sensory impairments is the one you want, that's the one people praise and has that theory in it. I've not read it as i'm sick of sensory stuff as i have none, and it's not on torrents.

In personal terms, you should research being an Empath. It's a big thing on the internet, like ASMR (and chemtrails being by aliens, i see the flaw in this argument) but it's not a thing at all in psychiatry, so your doctor can't diagnose you with it. Which is good, things should be well proven before they get in the DSM. But means you'll have to find your help and self-definition and stuff yourself. There seems to be a lot of it about though, so you should be able to find ok stuff. Like autism, the biggest problem is how most of it is in America: i do find it makes more sense to stick to British for some things (book reviews, social stuff that relates to real life).

I think you have to accept a diagnosis as being a specialist's best efforts going on the information presented. (I told the during the interview that discussing mental illness was absolutely humiliating for me and that's why i couldn't look at them, nevertheless they told me at the follow-up that i was 'remarkably cured' because i could now look at them: i find it humiliating how they don't believe half the things you say, yet fully believe the other half). You described yourself the behaviours that would fit the definition, clearly you scored enough points; in removing personal bias from psychiatry ('typical hysterical older woman') they've also removed all individual judgement (outlawed both) which can be tiresome if you feel actually the professional isn't an abuser but very intelligent and helpful and you're an adult not fragile porcelaine and you'd really like their personal opinion: getting that even from the lowest rank of nhs worker is like drawing teeth.

Humour and sarcasm: ignore any of that, there's no longer any accepted definition of autistic humour, that dates from before the reassessment of the definition of autism, when it meant boys who only understood language literally and so didn't get jokes or understand metaphors. Doesn't count as proof you aren't i mean.

i have the exact opposite problem: i have all the "classic" theoretical symptoms - no ToM, can't see let alone read facial expressions, etc: yet i'm the only person with autism i've met who does. Everyone else has the ones you do - sensory, social overwhelming etc - so that's all they relate to, and there is zero, literally zero, information or help for people with my problems. What are you supposed to do if you don't see - literally don't see - facial expressions? All the 'help' is silly cartoons that don't resemble real faces at all, or stuff for normal people telling you what to look out for. As for autism groups, they're full of people discussing their sensitive eyes and migraines and special interests and tv programmes i've never liked; i can't take part.

I scored close to zero on the EQ - but i scored close to zero on the AQ as well: no empathy, no autism symptoms. tl;dr 'autism' just means anything

My Tinnitus was triggered by Citalopram where it is listed as a known side effect & started within the first week. I persevered with it at the time as I thought it was a reasonable compromise if it eventually helped with my depression. I havent taken it for almost three years now, but sadly the Tinnitus never went away.

Funny you should mention 'Zelig', I agree it was an excellent film & I have long been a fan of Woody Allen. I have used that film several times to describe how I sometimes feel pressured to blend in though, provided that I am not forced to contradict my in-built rule system of acceptable behaviour or morality, e.g. I will never condone destructive or discriminatory behaviour & always speak out against it.

Can't say I agree with you about the South though, people might appear more tolerant on the surface, but in my experience of living in London, I met far too many people who were quite superficial & unreliable. I suppose there are good & bad people everywhere though & it just depends on whether you are lucky enough to build up a decent network of friends wherever you live.

I studied Computing at University because I wanted a job & it's all I've ever really worked in. I like technology but I'm not exactly addicted to it, especially not the bizarre fetish of constantly updating brand named mobiles, tablets etc. I like forums, but have never used Facebook or Twitter & can't understand why some people need to broadcast their lives to the world. I must confess to spending far too much time on my PS4 game console though!

Take care & have fun

I agree about the North West being (superficially) friendlier - and oddly enough I seem to be instinctively drawn to people who are from the North but no longer live there.  But in my experience, the famed Northern friendliness is often based around consensus and triviality, which does not suit me.  I'm not particularly talking about friendliness from strangers but the manner in which families, neighbours and acquaintances behave; everything is fine as long as one does not rock the boat by raising controversial subjects or being different.   I haven't really lived in the North for over 30 years so probably attitudes have shifted since then, but judging from my occasional contact with family in the North, much of what I experienced still applies (including disclosing my Asperger diagnosis to them!)

Interesting that your tinnitus was triggered by an antidepressant (which?)  I do wonder if mine is partly caused by more frequent use of another medication - zopiclone for sleep - as there seems to be some anecdotal evidence for that.  Mine is more of a constant hiss and it seems to be worsening (now both ears).  When I was younger, any temporary whistling, such as you describe, was caused by excess wax but presumably you've been checked for that.

I often described myself as an anti-chameleon.  Whenever I join a group, I always start noting the differences between myself and the others.  I'm the opposite of Woody Allen's Zelig (a wonderful satire on the ultimate twentieth-century chameleon).

I don't think I have much trouble reading body language - indeed I've loved pre-1930 silent films since I was a young boy (perhaps that's how I taught myself).  I often know instinctively how I should behave in social situations, but I simply cannot bring myself to do it, out of principle, integrity or whatever.  My partner (a politician) complains that I am far too honest.  I guess that explains why I've never had a decent job and had to give up work completely in my mid-forties. 

I suppose the digital age has brought employment benefits for many autistic people, but personally I have no interest whatever in computers etc. except in so far as they enable me to do things like contributing to this forum.  I don't even own or want a mobile phone.

Interesting that you mention being from Bolton, but now live in the South West, which do you prefer? I was born & raised in the North West, then moved around quite a bit for work. Before moving back home to Manchester though, I worked in London for almost 20 years & much prefer the North West where people are a lot more friendly. Having grown up where strangers happily chat to each other in bus queues, I always found it odd that if you tried to do that in London, people thought you were about to mug them.

I'm currently on my fourth anti-depressant, as they seem to burn out relatively quickly for me. They never seem to stop me from being depressed, but they do at least muffle my 'Inner Critic' or the 'Poison Parrot' as I have heard other people call it.

My Tinnitus was triggered three years ago by the first anti-depressant I tried, but luckily mine isn't that intrusive & is more like constantly hearing a 'Dog Whistle'. Remember the days before flat screen TVs? If you could hear the high pitched whistle the old TV tubes used to generate, it's exactly like that. Since I had to get used to ignoring that sound as a kid, blocking out my Tinnitus now isn't that difficult & I'm hoping that the pitch doesn't change.

I'm reasonably good at Maths & Science & like keeping up on the more interesting stories of current research. I work in programming & analysis, so enjoying getting stuck into fine detail & being able to quickly spot inconsistencies in data has always been a major part of my job. Although now I am getting older, work is harder to find since employers seem to think I am probably past it now. I've been told the 'Barrister Thing' too, since I have a very good memory for exactly what people say & tend to quote back inconsistencies in their arguments verbatim.

My school life was quite literally horrible, until sixth form I had no real friends at school & was systematically bullied every day for many years, with the teachers doing almost nothing to stop it. This was probably the main reason for most of my hangups & my problems with depression now. I don't know whether I became good at reading body language as a defence mechanism, or I just somehow picked up as I went along, I can't remember.

After school & like many people with ASD, I taught myself to fit in by becoming a 'Chameleon' of sorts. The only thing I can't really manage is the casual eye-contact thing, which many people have commented on. When I do choose to make direct eye-contact though (if I'm trying to chat someone up) people have commented that it's quite intense.

I've always known that I was an 'Outsider' or 'Different' somehow, I just thought previously thought that it couldn't be ASD since I can read body language quite easily. It was only a few years ago that I realised the media stereotypes were completely wrong & discovered that actually quite a lot of people with ASD are able to teach themselves that trick, including the 'Chameleon' one too.

Still not sure what difference (if any) my diagnosis will make, but I suppose it's a conversation piece with people I trust. I have started joining online forums now though, & it's interesting how many people with ASD have had similar experiences.

Hi Northern Geek - reading your two posts, I feel a lot in common with you.  I'm a mid-fifties male, recently diagnosed with Asperger's, originally from Bolton (now live in the south-west).   I've always had depression but refuse to take antidepressants - they made me feel worse - and I found CBT unhelpful; that was in the 1990s, long before I was diagnosed with autism. 

In my case, Asperger's was never raised by any medics and it took 10 years of my pushing GPs for an assessment - yet the autism specialist told me it was obvious I had it within a few minutes!  I don't think I fit the media stereotype either; I've little interest in science or maths (though I do have a good memory for numbers and dates if they interest me).  I'm quite outspoken and have a dry, ironic sense of humour.  The other day I noticed that our house number is the same as the quantity of sausages in our freezer!

My partner often tells me that I'm a very good judge of character, though maybe that's because I always look for the flaws (including my own).  I excel at picking up on inconsistencies in other people's opinions or "stories" - he thinks I would have made a good barrister!  I too loathed Blair for the same reason; he struck me as an opportunist long before he became PM.  But I've little respect for politics generally; I think of it as the art of not telling the truth without actually lying.  (Well, not usually.)

When I was a CAB volunteer, I was trained to look at the client's mouth, as I find eye contact so difficult, especially when I'm the one speaking (I find eyes very distracting).

The AS diagnosis hasn't really helped me, except to explain the past.  Like you, I grew up when nobody in Britain really knew about Asperger's.  At school I did very well academically and teachers didn't seem bothered by the fact I didn't have any friends.

How do you cope with your tinnitus?  For the last few years, this has increased my depression as I can no longer experience silence or enjoy quiet music.  I wear hearing aids, which are supposed to help, but only of course when there are sounds that they can amplify - and, as my audiologist acknowledges, they are useless for music.  Noise generators are almost as distracting as the tinnitus, though I use one at night to cover traffic noise (I have chronic insomnia).  I see a tinnitus therapist every few months but there's no practical treatment; it's really just a nice chat with a sympathetic lady.

(Sorry to have hijacked this thread, but PMs are not possible on this site.)

Sounds a lot like me too, I'm male, in my mid-fifties & was only officially diagnosed a few weeks ago.

I am often accused of being quite blunt (which I prefer to think of as truthful), but at least I am aware of exactly what I am saying, whereas I often observe other people making quite insulting remarks without even being aware of it. I've alway found it odd that adults often try to use the defence that they only said something bad 'In the Heat of the Moment', when I would never say anything that I didn't mean, regardless of how angry I was at the time.

I've always had the hyper-sensory thing too, especially with hearing, although middle-age & tinnitus mean it isn't quite as acute now. I generally avoid eye-contact as I find it a bit too intense/personal & in normal social interactions, I only make occasional brief eye-contact, since I know that other people expect it. The only exception is when I am trying to chat someone up, but then intense/personal is exactly the effect you want!

I've also noticed that I can often recognise good friends from a long distance away just by the way they walk. It's not something I do consciously, I just seem to gradually memorise the rhythm of how they move.

Regarding the ability to read body language, tone of voice etc, I've never really had a problem with that either. Quite often I am a bit over sensitive & pick up on things people were trying to hide, especially 'freudian slips' when people accidentally use phrases that indirectly imply their true feelings. I generally try to avoid watching Politicians on TV, as I often find their nauseating insincerity a bit too over powering, especially people like 'Tony Blair', who I disliked from the moment I saw him (despite being a Labour supporter myself).

Over the last few years I've suffered quite badly from depression & following failed attempts at conevntional therapies, my therapist recommended to my doctor that I was formally assessed for ASD. I discussed the whole 'body language thing' with my therapist several times & my theory is that somehow my methodology for interpreting these things is more analytical, whereas for most other people it is instinctual, i.e 'Digital vs Analague'. It's just impossible for me to tell, because it's something I have always done & therefore feels completely natural to me.

To be honest, having a diagnosis won't make that much difference to me, probably due to me already being far too old & set in my ways. The main reason I agreed to the assessment was that my doctor thought it would help in finding ways to deal with my depression.

Quite a few people that I know think my ASD diagnosis must be wrong & I'm somehow just a bit eccentric instead, but I think that's mainly because I don't fit their media stereotype of what ASD looks like. In the same way as they often struggle to see how people with ASD might see the world differently, I find it hard to imagine what it would be like to not automatically analyse everything looking for patterns.

I suppose what I am saying is that as long as being on the spectrum isn't stopping you from enjoying your life, then why does it matter?

People are so fond of using the term 'Normal' when semantically what they actually mean is 'Average', but who aspires to be that?

I have to say that I seem to share a lot of traits with you in that department - I'm HF ASD myself.

In terms of empathy, I can certainly put myself in other people's shoes and am sensitive enough to generally avoid upsetting people unless I'm getting really worked up.

I have particular eye contact issues especially when the subject is something I don't want to talk about and also I'm not at all comfortable in many social situations. I have a penchant for bad jokes... And don't get me started on my sexual hang-ups...

As for hypersensitivity, I can't stand discos, but am perfectly fine with diesel locomotives...

Perhaps the DSM's grouping of everything under Autistic Spectrum Disorder isn't right. It sounds like we're not quite fitting in the 'Aspie' character either...

Hello Empathetic Autistic

There are different definitions of "empathy". I find that I experience emotional empathy, which is also known as emotional contagion: when I pick up on a strong emotion someone is feeling, I will start to feel that emotion. This is different to cognitive empathy, where a person can imagine being in someone else's situation, but does not actually experience the same emotions.

Like Ferret, I don't see you as unusual or atypical. When I was at secondary school I was also withdrawn, shy and awkward. When I worked as a special needs teaching assistant I was told that I was very sensitive to the needs of the children I worked with. I have a friend who has told me that I understand her better than she understands herself at times, although she also has autistic traits (AS score 32). 

I think that part of the key to understanding autism is to understand how neurotypicals develop. As I understand it from my reading, babies are very sensitive to external stimuli, but as NTs grow this sensitivity is gradually dulled, so things like loud noises no longer interfere with cognition, whereas AS people do not develop this way. Also NTs easily learn to recognise a myriad of emotional states in others from observing facial expressions and body language, which is more difficult for AS people.

But as you know, we are not all the same. I am a female in my 50s with an AS score of 40. Only found out I was AS around 18 months ago. I can't remember the exact numbers, but my EQ score was fairly low and my SQ score extremely high. I work in accounting now, which is a good match for my systemizing brain. It's good to develop your strengths, not just concentrate on weaknesses.

Looking back over my life, I can see now that when I was younger I would copy the behaviour of others to try to fit in, regardless of whether what I was doing was right for me, and I've done a few things I regret. Now I understand myself better, I do very little to fit in or please others, and I'm more content.

Good luck with your studies

Pixie 

hello E-A. i am autistic. 

fyi most of the in-jokes among people who know me revolve around comments like "you're like Sherlock" and "omg Sherlock does that, have you seen that programme, you're just like him" and "Ferret's brain!!!" when i unconsciously do things... general comments to that effect. tiresome, but i suppose it gives the NTs something to 'comprehend'. 

you sound perfectly normal from my perspective, that is, an autistic perspective and your autistic qualities. your blade is obviously honed for a specific use, so to speak.

" I wish I could be like most people with aspergers sometimes."<---perhaps you should give further and deeper reflection and consideration on your either pre-existing ideas of what a person with aspergers /is/ and /does/ and also the traits they display. i would suggest that perhaps you are not fully away of the 'specialism spectrum' within the ASD spectrum.

"I don't want to change who I am, I just want people to say I am autistic for sure, or no I am not."<---does this really matter? do you need absolutism? or can you live with the ever evolving fluid state of clinical diagnosis dependent upon research developments and understanding of conditions as understanding of the myriad of what and how makes a person who they are? labels are fine until they are the wrong ones, or not appropriate. if the labelling system is not fit for purpose then it is not encompassing the /subtlies/ of the 'spectrum' with in the spectrum of diagnosis. bias confirmation then is at play eg. if this then this label, if not then something else label. not everything ticks a box because it is not fully understood.

"If I can get over the hurdle of accepting how I think, who I am, then I can make myself feel better."<---how you think is only a small component of who you are. if you base your identity upon solely the fixed status of a label, then you are, i would suggest, doing yourself a disfavour. be who you are /first/, then worry (or not) about labels later. 

a note on insight and uncanny behaviours: being insightful is an autistic trait which is often not fully understood as it appears to fly in the face of the lack of empthy we have. the ability to 'see past the mask' most people wear, coupled with intelligence and also highly focused observation skills and our abilities to 'mask' and mimic (you call it blurring) all feed into the 'array' of mental skills we have switched on. coupled with our highly sensitive natures to all stimulai, and what one ends up with is a very interesting skill set. 

i would suggest celebrating and diving into this skill set you have. i think you would make an excellent psychologist, as you have a skill set in the 'sixth' that few others possess. 

one would not think a wine taster or a perfumer with their exempliary abilities to being other than highly skilled; potentially artists, or genius...