vulnerability and sexuality in schools

outraged said:

Two quick points: a, determenism vs free will has been a point of unresolved philosophic debate for centuries, wiki, but whereas we hope to see equality in general and Autism equality specifically we need to see a deterministic view of human development prevail lest we be told that Autism is a choice...

This article in Journal of American Medical Association (equivalent to our BMJ I guess) shows heritability of autism to be approx 50% in boys/ 15% in females. So autism is considerably more heritable than unconventional sexual orientation.

(I've started a new thread on genes vs environment so can people look at that before taking this thread even further off piste?)

We are always very interested in subjects which are valued by the community and therefore this topic has been referred to our Information and Advice team and one our Directors. 

Gender identity is an area of research we’re interested in and it will be considered alongside our other priorities. If we have any updates to announce you will find them on the website.

Alexandra Moderator

Coogybear said:

'Keeping safe' should be a key skill taught to all on the spectrum.

Given that the usual mechanisms for public safety do not adequately protect those of us on the spectrum, it appears necessary that we take resonsibility for our own personal security. Get your kids martial arts training... 

Hi Longman,

 You are quite right, this subject is seldom tackled and I appreciate the original thread which brought this question about.

To be honest, speaking as a woman on the spectrum, I believe vulnerability isn't just confined to School situations or peer pressure and much more information needs to be made available to parents, to help in supporting their children and to those growing up with the condition, irrespective of their gender.

It's clear that those on the spectrum exude vulnerability. Invariably as youngsters and teens, they are inately trusting of others and often naive, and bullies; either as adults or peers, seem to hone in on this. One look at the media coverage spells this out very clearly. 

Without going into too much detail, i am probably considered a classic example of a woman on the spectrum who has fallen foul of bullies/preditors both as a child and an adult. Had I, my parents or the School been more aware, perhaps i'd have been spared my harrowing ordeals.

On reflection, the catalogue of my dreadful experiences has most definately affected the way i now look, dress etc. That defence mechanism you mention.

As a small 6 year old child however, i didnt court the idea of wanting to 'fit in', I was merely targeted by a preditor! I trusted an adult, who harmed me.

As a Secondary School child we had a strict dress code so one was compelled to look decent and presentable at all times, (however, I hid myself away in a gally kitchen, as a self appointed tea girl to the staff, thus avoiding contact with my peers.) The needing to appear inobvious, unnoticeable, being able to hide or stay out of sight that you mention. Yet avoiding the gaze and bullying of my peers invariably brought me in greater contact with adults, which was much more dangerous as a young teen. I was later seriously assaulted by my Saturday job, employer (Age 14) and then raped the following year by a family friend. (Age 15)

I never saw it coming on either ocassion!

In the adult working world the same is often demanded by way of appearance and you bend and conform to what society expects and you hope that when you close the door behind you at the end of a working day, that you are safe to be yourself and safe from harms way. Lets just say, that too, has not been my experience.

As an older adult I have neglected myself, but it's come as a result of a lifetime of abuse and trauma. Were all my experiences as a result of wanting to fit in? Probably not..

I wanted to work, like everyone else, but I didn't actively court the sexual attention of my boss or the family friend in an effort to 'fit in'.

I definately relished exclusion from my peers because of taunting, but 50 years on, i now realize it was the adults i needed to be further away from.

Vulnerability, takes many forms. In the same way as preditors and bullies.

Preditors and bullies mascarade as peers, uniformed pillars of society, businessmen, friends and family members.

Speaking from my own experience, being vulnerable however, is not always as a result of wanting to 'fit in.' It's often as much about wanting to be left alone or trying not to be noticed. A lone teen, child or adult is easy prey to those who wish to cause harm...

Perhaps if this issue is looked at as well, then maybe others could be spared the trauma and heartache I endured.

'Keeping safe' should be a key skill taught to all on the spectrum.

Coogybear.

Two quick points: a, determenism vs free will has been a point of unresolved philosophic debate for centuries, wiki, but whereas we hope to see equality in general and Autism equality specifically we need to see a deterministic view of human development prevail lest we be told that Autism is a choice...

b, I think the tendancy of persons with ASVs to neglect personal grooming is a matter of motivation. Whereas the NT adolescent has no barrier to social/sexual inclusion (s)he is motivated to maintain his/her appearance in order to prove sucessful in that field. Whereas the AS adolescent has barriers to inclusion in this matter ("I wouldn't go out with you if you were the last man alive! Why? Why do you think you freak!") they have no motivation to conform their appearance and so just dont bother...

NAS18906 said:

I thought that moderator Bob C had made a very reasonable attempt at moving us along and that Hope's acceptance of my apology would end this discussion.

Sorry for re-opening it.

Moderator Alex's intervention made me wonder whether he was speaking personally or on behalf of NAS?

No, I'm just posting in a personal capacity, as someone with personal experience to share.

i have done a bit more searching to see if there was evidence that supported my side of the argument. www.nature.com/.../news041011-5.html This paper suggests that perhaps 20% of gay people have inherited their orientation with "The remaining 80% could perhaps be due to formative sexual and social experiences during early life or even childhood, he speculates." They even suggest a mechanism, that the relevant genes are carried on The X chromosome, that makes sense to me.

He does say he's speculating, though.

There is no suggestion that the 80% are making a lifestyle choice and i'm sorry if that's what people thought i was suggesting. i think the data does counter the suggestion that most of the mechanism is genetic.

OK, that makes sense - apology accepted.

Alex

I thought that moderator Bob C had made a very reasonable attempt at moving us along and that Hope's acceptance of my apology would end this discussion.

Moderator Alex's intervention made me wonder whether he was speaking personally or on behalf of NAS?

i have done a bit more searching to see if there was evidence that supported my side of the argument. www.nature.com/.../news041011-5.html This paper suggests that perhaps 20% of gay people have inherited their orientation with "The remaining 80% could perhaps be due to formative sexual and social experiences during early life or even childhood, he speculates." They even suggest a mechanism, that the relevant genes are carried on The X chromosome, that makes sense to me.

This paper is from an eminently respectable journal that has no unsavoury partisan links with those who try to convert gay people back to heterosexuality.

There is no suggestion that the 80% are making a lifestyle choice and i'm sorry if that's what people thought i was suggesting. i think the data does counter the suggestion that most of the mechanism is genetic.

As a scientist, i prefer to look for evidence based work rather than relying on anecdotal reports. I would be glad to look at evidence to the contrary if it comes from from a similarly respected journal.

NAS18906 said:

My understanding is that sexuality is influenced by fashion and media more than by genetics. Young adolescents are influenced by their peers and all of the messages in their environment.

Your understanding would appear to be at odds with most research, and with the lived experiences of LGBT people. No-one knows if it's wholly genetic, or whether there are environmental factors as well. But I know a huge number of LGBT people and literally not a single one of them chose to be non-straight because of peer pressure or media messages.

My experience growing up was that if I showed any sign of not being straight, my peers would at best mock me and at worst attack me. The typical school environment offers a huge number of disincentives to being out as gay.

Alex

NAS18906 said:

I'm actually concerned about the PC views that inhibit the promotion of heterosexuality as I think the media promote homosexuality out of all proportion to common sense. We are all the product of millions of generations of sexual reproduction that has brought us from the primeval soup to modern homo sapiens - it seems a bit short sighted to ignore that heritage and just to decide to be "different" because we have the freedom to choose.

I really don't think anyone is 'inhibiting the promotion of heterosexuality'. You say yourself that's it's an extremely successful reproductive strategy. The media are filled with heterosexuality. Pick a recent film at random. Unless it's a specifically 'gay' film, the odds are that any love story for the main characters will be a heterosexual one. Often, so will any and all supporting love story elements. Images designed to appeal to heterosexual tastes - especially the stereotypical 'male gaze' - are everywhere. If I sit down and watch TV - even kids' TV - there are adverts in the ad breaks using images of heterosexual home life to sell everything from dinner to floor cleaner. The just isn't true of gay people, and from the point of view of the media, bisexual people may as well not exist.

Alex

Apologies are accepted. I was offended by by the remark that suggested being gay is a lifestyle choice. Is being heterosexual a lifestyle choice?. Sexual orientation is a part of one's nature; it cannot be indoctrinated into someone.

I really do not want an argument. I was, however, surprised that recombinantsocks could hold such views. I can only hope that he will come to see things differently over time, and see gayness as part of natural human diversity.

I think we need to get back to the subject of this thread.

A forum is nothing if it is not a place for rational debate between people who may hold contrary views.Views should we hope be based on evidence or research but this also can of course be disputed. Good debaters should be open to persuasion and willing to change their minds.

Using the forum to promulgate hatred with a closed mind is unacceptable. So far I do not believe this has happened in this thread

 Please respect each other and trade research and opinion to illuminate. Forum users can then make up their own minds as they a read good well argued debate. The prejudiced position is almost always the weaker argument. Bob Mod/Digital Services Manager

I'm sorry Hope, i didn't think i had said anything disparaging about anyone. I don't discriminate against gay people, i don't advocate harm to them, i don't advocate intolerance of them, i defend everyone's right to say what they want to say. Is there something that i have said that implies otherwise? If you point out the offending bits then i will be happy to retract or amend or explain what i was trying to say.

Also, it is completely irrelevant to this thread. This community is meant to be a safe place. Disparaging remarks, cloaked as 'personal opinion', about race, sex, disability, or any other inborn characteristic, are not appropiate on this forum.

Recombinantsocks: you are coming out with homophobic comments, and this community does not tolerate homophobia, racism, sexism, or disabilism. Can the moderator please intervene? As a gay person, I am offended by recombinantsocks remarks. They are as unacceptable as racism.

The trouble is that everything is highly sexualised. I've grown up in a generation where sex is portrayed everywhere in modern society, from models on billboards or TV wearing practically nothing to easily accessed sexualised films and tv shows.

In high school, I despised the boy sitting next to me as he (like many other boys in my year group) would sit in lessons watching porn accessed via their mobile phones.

Not something you want near you in Year 10 science.

Society has become more comfortable with sex, but there isn't enough out there about forming relationships. Celebrities and characters that are 'valued' by society are often promiscuous, manipulative and self obsessed. They don't care what happens to their 'victims' as long as they're successful (see many contestants in popular shows such as Big Brother). Sex Ed was an embarrassed woman showing you how to put a condom on and telling the class that STD's were bad. No images of damage, no discussions, simply 'have sex, wear condom, don't get pregnant'.

The biggest issue is and still remains peer pressure. 'Cool' kids have sex, 'whimps' are virgins. All vulnerable kids and teens looking to fit in are taken advantage of out of their desperation, which is why there needs to be more emphasis on relationships before sex. But with celebrities jumping in and out of each others beds all the time, gossip being taken as gospel and hordes of kids preferring not to think for themselves, I worry this isn't going to change.

I was lucky that I learned not to trust the other kids in high school, so many of them tried to manipulate me for their own selfish reasons, whether it was to try and steal some of my homework answers, or to try and manipulate me into a 'relationship' which would have inevitably ended in sex then being dumped. When it became clear I didn't trust them or believe their lies, they moved on to their next 'target'.

And it wasn't just boys trying to get into my pants, it was the vicious girls who were reknown for sleeping around that constantly tried setting up more vulnerable girls in situations where their male friends would then take advantage of the vulnerable girls.

Society is warped.

You probably need to look at the evidence for rising levels of sexually transmitted diseases in adolescents to realise somethig has changed. 

In recent years undergraduates on starting their degree (ie freshers) get a sexual health pack promoting prevention of chlamydia and other STDs, and there is quite intensive campaigning.

The sexual marathons observed amonst first year undergraduates are staggering. They didn't just start exploring in Freshers Week.

I went to secondary school in the 60s. Occasionally a boy got a girl pregnant, often getting expelled in the process.

In the 80s I guess there were ways around the risks and more went on. Since then ready access to the pill and contraceptives make it relatively easy for young people to explore sex withiout their parents knowing.

So I would stress the word "now". The pressures on young people regarding sexual experience are extrordinarily high. This means many adolescents want to experiment. Where some of their peers may be able to resist advances, but weaker or more vulnerable adolescents may be exploited.

i don't think we were so far off topic (what do you expect when you ask a question in this forum!) . I think it's useful to get a common understanding of some of the basic mechanisms that go on for adolescents. I was trying to highlight evidence rather than prejudice but probably strayed over the line a bit. Sorry for that.

i think it is perhaps useful to compare our school days with current conditions to see if things are better or worse and why that might be. Did we benefit from greater discipline and control? Is the bog standard comprehensive actually a bad place for people on the spectrum? Is the bog standard comp, located in the middle of a council estate actually the worst possible enviroment? 

is one of the issues here that we prefer black and white answers to questions? If we are challenged, as young teens, to state our position (about dress code or sexuality or anything else) then do we struggle to decide straight or gay and do we have difficulty with stating and maintaining a position of "not quite sure yet" or "don't know". I expect some people choose one way or the other and then find themselves not wanting or willing or able to change that view?

Hello,

We've passed on your concerns to one our directors. 

Thanks,
Alexandra 

Part of the evidence to consider however, is the amount of sexual ambiguity manifested amongst people on the spectrum.

This manifestation is higher than in the NT population. The available evidence is limited, largely reported observations than statistical data.

But proportionally more people on the spectrum have gender uncertaintly, or seek to change their gender.

More people on the spectrum are attracted to their own sex - ie gay or ***. Some accounts claim you are two to three times more likely to be gay if you are on the autistic spectrum than NT.

A significant number of people on the spectrum have very confused ideas about sex which prevernt them successfully forming relationships, if indeed the social limitations allow.

The reasons for this are likely to be many and complex. But I would like to hope that respondents on this forum would want to ensure that there are no harmful factors in school life which contribute to this.

And particularly I'm trying to get NAS to wake up to and address such problems, and stop being institutionally twee about it.

sorry for going off topic. The issues you raise are very important and I hope you get some good replies/debates set up. Sorry again, please forgive me :)