vulnerability and sexuality in schools

ATTENTION PLEASE!

I created this discussion to try to raise awareness of the vulnerability of young people in school.

I had hoped perhaps that respondents would understand the importance of this. A debate on the morals of sexuality really belongs in another thread.

In the latter part of my career I was on a Safeguarding Vulnerable Adults Committee, in a university context. The issues discussed included students on the autistic spectrum in the context of what students around them get up to these days.

I don't know whether there are vulnerable adolescents committees. What I do know is that maybe twenty or thirty years ago students started university mostly as virgins and experimented from there. Nowadays students have already done most of this experimentation in their teens while at school.

Parents of children on the spectrum may be less aware that parents of NT children have a lot to worry about where able socialising kids are concerned. The pressures on young people to experiment sexually, and the bullying of those that don't, or appear naiive, is a serious issue.

I should perhaps have broadened my post to include girls on the spectrum being vulnerable to experimentation by boys, as more suggestible or leadable subjects. Or indeed boys on the spectrum being taken advantage of by girls. It happens the recent example was boys taking advantage of a boy on the spectrum.

Forget experiences of school twenty years ago. The situation now is far more threatening for vulnerable young people. And I dont think enough is being done to understand these issues.

Please move the whether you agree with homosexuality or whether it exists debate to somewhere more appropriate, it doesn't relate to having autism.

recombinantsocks, everyone has their own opinion, and that's okay. I do really disagree with you about sexuality. I also disagree with the idea that people who dress in what one might perceive as sexually 'provocative' should be inherently distrusted and avoided. It's only one step from there to saying that people are to blame for being sexually assaulted because they were wearing a short dress. It takes all kinds of people to make a world and that is what makes life beautiful.

p.s. Sorry you thought I was ranting...can we just see it as a friendly debate instead?

KaloJaro said:

I agree with Lydia that sexuality is influenced primarily by genetics. And it can be inherited, the reason why other sexualities are becoming more 'popular' is due to society becoming more open about the subjects and allowing non-heterosexual people to go about without fear (mostly) of being persecuted for their instinctive behaviour.

I disagree with the words "primarily" and "instinctive" here. I don't think the data supports the suggestion that gays are gay primarily because of their genetics. There are lots of articles that have demonstrated peer influences on sexual behaviour if you don't mind wading through the bowels of google scholar http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=relationship+sexuality+peer+pressure&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholar

One article that caught my eye talks about the moderating influence of parents on the peer pressure. If kids get some sex education from their parents then this changes the child's behaviour away from the crowd influence: http://jar.sagepub.com/content/15/2/251.short

To my mind there is a lot of "confirmation bias" and group-think going on on both sides of the debate. Hysteria and hypothesis rule the day where there is actually a body of evidence that documents how it really is.

I think it is interesting to substitute the word "experimental" for "instinctive" in KaloJaros piece. If experimentation leads you to discover something nice and society accepts this as normal or OK then you will continue with the practice. This doesn't mean that you are coded to be gay it just means that you have found it easy to obtain sexual gratification. That's my opinion and its probably pushing the boundaries and offending people so I'm sorry if it has offended.

I agree with a lot of what KaloJaro says otherwise.

I feel that the world can be a rather drab place if men can't dress as men and women can't dress as women. I completely agree that the type of woman or man who goes out with everything on display and nothing is left to the imagination is absolutely to be avoided. The most interesting relationships are formed where you respect the intellect of the other party and a relationship can be based on trust, conversation, integrity, sustainable living and enough sex to satisfy our animal instincts. If you omit one of these elemnts (I guess there are other facets but you get the idea) then it is less likely to endure and satisfy both parties. In between the drab dungarees and the let it all hang out style I think most people can find a comfortable medium where they are not ashamed for being a man or a woman, and where you can be comfortable in your own skin.

It seems to me that there is a vicious circle where we behave a bit strangely, get bullied, can't work out how to conform, get to the frankly not caring stage and then just appearing odd for the rest of our lives. I think the outcome is unfortunate and its one I avoided to the point where I didn't realise that I was odd. I dressed like everyone else, the bullying ceased and I got through 56 years before I really worked out that I was actually different. I never had that feeling of being different like a lot of people but in hindsight I never did just follow the crowd, I always rebelled but kept up an NT facade and that reduced the bullying by a large degree.

NTs are instinctively predators - perhaps this is a valuable mechanism for ensuring that we keep the human race going by reproduction. I actually think a lot of NTs behave more like a flock of sheep and that they will follow each other over cliffs like lemmings on occasion. The ASD influence is often contrarian which occasionally is necessary to bring down the worst excesses of the NT conformity.

I agree with Lydia that sexuality is influenced primarily by genetics. And it can be inherited, the reason why other sexualities are becoming more 'popular' is due to society becoming more open about the subjects and allowing non-heterosexual people to go about without fear (mostly) of being persecuted for their instinctive behaviour. In the past, there were many (for example) homosexuals who ended up breeding with a member of the opposite in order to conform to societies standards, the ever present instinct to 'fit in'.

And while there are more 'gay' characters on tv, how they are represented is highly stylised and stereotypical, setting an unrealistic expectation of many homosexuals in reality, much like how there are so few people with autism portrayed on tv except for the 'savants', which makes life harder for those of us on other parts of the spectrum.

Back to the point of this topic however, Longman, I feel that you may be correct to an extent in that those on the spectrum subconciously dress in a manner to deter interaction with NT's, not neccessarily to avoid sexual experimentation, but in response to the general bullying many on the spectrum are subjected to in an NT society (whether its intended or not).

In the end, when given the chance I began dressing how I wanted (tom-boy, I cut my hair really short, still wear mens clothing to this day) because I had learned that no matter what I did, I would still be victimised for being myself. I've always regarded 'sexy' clothing or 'trendy' clothes as uncomfortable and impractical. But this behaviour wasn't limited to myself, others often bullied or excluded from social circles often wore their own clothing that would be regarded as unattractive. These people prefer to build relationships and friendships based on personality.

I was often called a *** for having my hair so short (typical mens cut, an inch in length at its longest) until having short hair became 'popular' in celebrity fashion. That resulted in people no longer questioning my sexuality, but they quickly found 'flaws' in my personality to attack.

Most young people follow a fashion trend in their attempts to belong, and are inclined to bully and exlude those who do not dress/act/speak the way they do, so those of us who don't fit their ideals end up following our own ideals of dressing or behaving as we realise that it isn't our clothes that make the narrow minded predators pick on us, its their own nature and its best we simply leave them to it and avoid contact. It also enables the 'outcasts' to identify each other, it wasn't too hard in 6th form to tell which cluster of people would be the self absorbed 'barbies' and which would have the more caring and down to earth people.

There's also the matter of plain old self interest. I suffer from hypersensitivity, and dress accordingly, and the most comfortable clothes I can find happen to be 99.9% of the time made for men, so I wear mens clothes (which aren't flattering on a female figure). I am not attempting to 'attract' anyone who would judge me simply on looks, therefore, I prefer to avoid any and all femenine clothing unless it's something I particularily like (and even then it usually only gets used on special occassions).

I think promoting a sense of worth is important to adolesents on the spectrum, as I found growing up that those who wore less sexulised clothing (both male and female) often had more values and substance to their personalities than those who did. Teachers are also of no help as they often try to advise 'outcasts' to either bond with other 'outcasts' or to change their behaviour in order to 'fit in'. Being an individual is often second to acceptence in their eyes.

I theorise that a large portion of NT's are instinctively predators, particularily if they have a 'pack'. In order to assert dominance over others, they'll prey on those different (and often alone) in order to gain some semblence of superiority. This behaviour of trying to assert dominance seems to be strongest during puberty, as they attempt to determine where they are on the unspoken hierachy in the playground. This applies to all people, no matter their mental or physical condition. Anyone can fall victim to the dangerous practise of peer pressure.

Lydia said:

(won't let me finish) also there is no such thing as freedom to choose sexuality. We are born wired as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual or all the rainbows in between. It's as inbuilt as autism. YOU CANNOT MAKE SOMEONE GAY OR OTHERWISE.

My understanding is that sexuality is influenced by fashion and media more than by genetics. Young adolescents are influenced by their peers and all of the messages in their environment.

Autism is clearly heavily influenced by genetics. I can identify three generations of ancestors that have had clear eccentricities that we would recognise as being on the spectrum. If being gay were genetic then we would either see generations of ancestors who were gay or it would be a spontaneous mutation. The evidence isn't actually there for the number of people who are gay. I would be glad to see the genetic evidence if you can point me to a respectable peer reviewed journal.

I don't have a problem with gay people. They are funny, genuine likeable people. I personally prefer watching Graham Norton rather than Jonathon Ross. Graham is funnier, more natural, a better interviewer etc. It's just that I would vote for, and advocate for, heterosexuality and want to be able to advocate it with the same freedom as I can speak out for my political opionions or my favourite football team. Your rant, is I'm afraid, what we fear when we would speak out for this opinion. The beligerance of your response is disproportionate and doesn't admit that there is a different opinion which has as much right to be heard as the liberal view that you clearly support. I don't think you are wrong or bad for this view but we have to be able to accept each others point of view without resorting to exploding into a rant. I'm glad that your last post recognised that you had ranted and I don't feel at all offended or intimidated.

If you aren't aware of the number of gay people promoting the gay lifestyle then you are watching different tv to me. There are lots of gay characters in lots of programmes and my impression is that it portrays a view of normality which actually isn't what many people think of as normal.

(won't let me finish) also there is no such thing as freedom to choose sexuality. We are born wired as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual or all the rainbows in between. It's as inbuilt as autism. YOU CANNOT MAKE SOMEONE GAY OR OTHERWISE.

it's also important to say that lgbtq communities still face huge difficulties throughout the world

*aspies

sorry for the rant. It is over now. :) x

also, saying that the media promotes homosexuality makes no sense to me. Since when have you ever seen tv adverts with gay couples walking around a furniture store, saying how great the furniture is? Or a *** family advertising a particular brand of car insurance? Or a transgender woman in the latest lifestyle selling john Lewis ad?

gay people are almost invisible in the media, apart from the odd celebrity or two. Gay people only have a say in things that are to do specifically with gay people. Meanwhile, heterosexuals are seen to have valid opinions on a range of subjects - because they are seen as the 'norm', just as NTs are treated as the norm as opposed to aspir

I know this isn't the main topic, but I really disagree with you here recombinantsocks. There have always been gay people - ancient Greeks were massively into homoeroticism, the Stuarts and elizabethans had a lot of sexual experimentation. In the recent past it has just been hidden because of stigma and persecution.

Also,th

I take the point about then, I'm concerned with now.

When I was at school bullying was tolerated as a toughening up exercise, assuming apparently weaker boys like myself would be improved by it - but my problem wasn't weakness but proneness to over-react to bating because of meltdowns.

However it would have been hard for there to have been any impropriety, it would have meant immediate expulsion for both parties. Even so I guess it went on, just I was too busy avoiding being ragged to notice.

But nowadays, and that is my point, recombinantsocks, a less intrusive and parental teacher attitude leaves much more scope.

And while it is great to know you grew up OK, my concern is with young people currently going through school.

There are lots of things going on in this and I suspect that it would be a mistake to think we know what the "average" autie goes though. My slightly random and slightly non PC thoughts follw...

As you grow from asexual childhood to being a sexual adult I gather that many people go through an uncertain phase where they are not sure where there orientation should be. I went through a bit of this, I didn't pick up a lot of the signals that are flashing around between teenagers - I was never aware of anyone fancying me and it took a very forward female to initiate me. Having experienced it I have no doubt about my heterosexuality. I'm very comfortable with this. I also think I would miss the fulfilment of having kids. I'm actually concerned about the PC views that inhibit the promotion of heterosexuality as I think the media promote homosexuality out of all proportion to common sense. We are all the product of millions of generations of sexual reproduction that has brought us from the primeval soup to modern homo sapiens - it seems a bit short sighted to ignore that heritage and just to decide to be "different" because we have the freedom to choose.

At school I was bullied but there was never any attempt to make sexual advances that I was aware of. Being big and tall for my age probable helped.

On the separate issue of messy clothes and appearance. I know someone who would fit this description. I'm not sure whether it comes out of a lack of awareness of how odd he looks. He actually really doesn't care what people think and he's entirely comfortable with that. His female partner doesn't seem to be bothered and it hasn't stopped him acquiring a mate. I probably had slightly odd clothing as a teenager but learned to dress conventionally and have never had an issue. My aspie Father in Law doesn't give a damn about what he looks like or what anyone says, he just says its their problem if anyone makes a comment.