Empathy

Hiya, I can relate to this. It's always been a complicated one for me too. Sometimes I'm in tune and sometimes I'm not. It really depends on who it is and how I'm feeling at the time. I've been told I'm an exceptionally good listener, it's part of my job, and I do feel things very deeply, even picking up other people's emotions especially if they're sad or uncomfortable.

If I'm in meltdown or shutdown though everything gets shut off and I often feel nothing. Defence wall goes up and nothing gets in, even if the other person really needs my support, and then like you I feel awful afterwards and beat myself for a long time after. I've also upset people in the past by saying things wrong and I still feel it years later. Luckily this doesn't happen too often anymore and I'm generally quite friendly and supportive with most people as long as I feel safe. I currently don't feel supported in my work environment so I keep my head down a lot to avoid interaction and misunderstandings by blurting out the wrong thing due to being nervous and unsettled.

I think being direct as you suggest is the best way to do it as an autistic person. Some people may find it a little abrupt but I'd rather someone be that way with me instead of trying to guess and getting it wrong. As I've been masking all my life up to now I'm still unlearning a lot and I still find it difficult to unmask and just ask for what I need, mainly because often I don't even know due to brain fog and burnout.

Do you, or anyone else have more information on autism and 'hyper-empathy'?

I think my difficulty with empathy is that I have it and I feel it but I'm not very good at showing it. I don't know what to do if someone is upset or tells me about something they're struggling with. But in my head I am empathising with them.

I've got a pretty firm grasp of what I am good at, and what I'm bad at.  I get empirical evidence of such things..... but I don't feel safe to explain further than that, here, these days.

Do you also hear from people simply that you’ve done something good? Or that you are good at something? It took me long time snd I’m still not sure what I’m good or bad at. I was always bad at math but yet when it came to the college and logistics I’ve done well, passed with good grades and helped few other colleagues who were going to fail the final exam. I was always told I’m gifted in art and manual stuff yet I failed there so I’m confused and it affects my self esteem too. I try to find what I’m good at in my current situation, but I’m aware of that I’m lucky because I have a job and it’s not damaging me mentally like my previous jobs did and my abilities there are valued and accepted together with my quirks. At work I actually talk only to my colleagues in my team if I have something to say or they ask me something, don’t engage much in group chat and others in the company wonder (I heard recently) if I can speak at all. 

Yea...I agree...."weird" is the MOST common adjective used by others to describe me too [if they are actually kind enough to indicate or explain their perceptions of me.....to me!]

Accordingly, I have chosen to use this term as a self-descriptor.....in order to demonstrate a self-awareness of myself (as perceived by others)......and it generally seems to defuse any "tension" that exists when I meet new people.  Although I know that using the term "weird" could be considered as self-deprecating or self-har ming to some extent......I don't mind, because I know that my generalised prowess in certain other areas (mainly my work) more than compensates for any impression of "deficiency" implied by the term "weird."

In short......I'm VERY comfortable being called weird......because it is what I am, to a LARGE extent.

Yes, you have a point! So to correct myself - we do have to fit the standard to some degree and many of us find coping strategies. I also get perceived by different people differently, once I’m intelligent, then I’m stupid, too emotional or cold etc. almost always I’m weird. 
i try to not rely on what people tell me, but on the results where I see results of my actions. So I know I have good attention to details which results with transport damage being reported, with me noticing immediately that someone has new shoes or hairstyle and when i tell them they thank me for noticing and smile etc. I used to be a people pleaser I may still be to some degree I’m not even sure how I stopped. Maybe because I cut off all those people who abused me and didn’t find any new “friends” since then.   

Alien0n3arth said:

instead concentrate what we are valued by others for.

Yes.......if we can actually work out what that is, then this is good to know, although it isn't always clear to me WHICH part of me they value?!  I am many different things to many different people (according to what they tell me) ........ and I think we have to be a bit careful not to fall into "people pleasing" and/or "masking" to attain approval, too much!?

Some people see me as coldly logical, whereas others seem to see me as warm and cuddly - yet I am the same person, just viewed differently.  I find "people" very confusing........but animals are BEAUTIFULLY consistent in their understanding and reactions to me!!

I'm delighted mate!  Fyi......another member here, did for me, what you have done for JD here.  There then followed (for me) days, hours and months of research + self observation and monitoring and reflection on my many decades of prior conscious existence.

I think that "we" autists are at our best if we can be left to organically interact and share whatever arises between us.  I'm not saying that there isn't a place for "advice" and "guidance" for people who actively seek it......but I think that (perhaps) the greatest utility provided by this place (a COMMUNITY forum)  is when it is left fallow.....to see what grows?!

It is rare to have a place, just to "be" without anyone trying to push or set agendas or acting with a zealous intensity?

Reading your post I felt like you described my experience. I struggle with reciprocal interactions and only recently realized this is the reason (or one of the reasons) nobody wants to be friends with me. I can’t comprehend how others understand someone’s states or emotions just by looking at them, but in fact I recall many situations where others cought this, but I was the only one (also called stupid) who failed there. I often struggle to understand what is my husband feeling, but I would say it’s a bit easier with people I know good and that are close to me. I also do my best to not hurt anyone, and if someone tells me what I do wrong or what hurts them etc I take it seriously. I always feel guilty if I know I hurt someone. I struggle to differentiate if someone is arguing or joking, I struggle with irony, I react with laugh in stressful situations and I got myself I to trouble few times, social interactions are really mentally exhausting. 
I don’t know how to actually deal with it. I habe pretty understanding colleagues at work, so when they talk they also look at me to acknowledge my presence although there are differences in communication, I usually don’t talk, get busy with my stuff but it happened also that I took over the whole conversation because they mentioned one of my previous special interest so I info dumped them and nobody was able to interrupt me. I think that maybe it’s not that important to do everything we can to fit the norm, but instead concentrate what we are valued by others for. For being a good listener? For noticing quickly details that changed (new hairstyle) that others don’t notice or do much slower. For not being false to anyone not pretending, not gossiping… I think there are more values that may help us in life. It’s anyway hard to navigate. My awkwardness is not a big issue for me at work because I work in a warehouse, but when I worked on an office, it was hard. 

Number said:

those little sparks of  human-to-human connection.....that help us to UNDERSTAND rather than try to SOLVE each others challenges.

That's very insightful, Number. We can get so caught up in trying to "solve our problems" that sometimes we don't take the time to fully understand and accept our innate traits - we often focus on the "norms" and continue to try to emulate them instead.

We think, therefore we are.

Glad to have made you feel happier.

EVERYTHING that you write here JD - is my experience too - and so, like you, I initially felt that I had been "set back" MANY years too......and this is a truism for you and me (and a significant tranche of autists)....but I have a follow-up word of caution for you based on my experience of becoming aware of these important facts about empathy.

Firstly - just because I now know why I get so emotional if I see people in distress, it DOESN'T stop me from behaving emotionally in those instances.  I can't help it / myself.  Let's call it the 'tism at work....if we could control and manage it appropriately, then by definition, we WON'T have the 'tism.....we'd just be NT!

Secondly - when I do get "so emotional" in those instance [and btw - emotions can be love or hate, comfort or intimidation, fight or flight etc] no amount of "lanyard" flashing, or "'tism card" presentation, or careful explanation of what&why I am behaving that way........WILL EVER HELP!

Don't get me wrong here JD.....this isn't a post of negativity or disregard....because it is GLORIOUS to understand ourselves/oneself.....I am simply saying that it is important not to assign too much negative weight to the fact that we didn't previously "know."

From a personal perspective on this.....now I do "know" this thing about me.....I am MORE prone to offering warning to those around me (although as we know.....I don't communicate very clearly!!) about what is likely to happen next if I see people in distress or hyper joy.....or any shade in between!

The exchange here - between you and Lotus - helps to boost my dwindling faith that this place can still be invaluable to ALL autists.......with those little sparks of  human-to-human connection.....that help us to UNDERSTAND rather than try to SOLVE each others challenges.

Thank you for making me happier, this evening - to you both.

Well yh sure we all have empathy as a autistic society...i do agree here i myself have zero understand what people gonna think N also having difficulty about daily life what am gonna do so sad

As someone who has been told all my life 'I don't have any empathy', I can relate. 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to all those empathy tests. It is very well-known that autistic people interacting with neurotypical people results in the double empathy problem, where both often fail to understand each other. 

Personally, I believe saying an autistic person has 'low empathy' is extremely damaging and degrading. I'd personally be called any insult anyone can think of but someone saying I have no empathy, because it isn't true, and neither is it true for a lot of autistic people who experience something called 'hyper-empathy'

I also never understand 'social cues', too. That doesn't make any of us less empathetic than others just because we cannot understand unless we are directly told. And I worry constantly about how others feel as well- my best friend in particular. I'm always so scared that she doesn't like something I'm doing. 

I'd just advise you to just be yourself. There's no point in trying to change when it is both impossible and there is no need to at all. The right people will understand you. 

This is so interesting. I didn’t know there were different types of empathy. I’ve always thought I have too much empathy and my resultant behaviours led to many people over the years saying ‘well, you can’t be autistic because you ‘have empathy’, which of course was not correct and set me back for many years in the sense that I didn’t really know myself as a result

I believe that the Baron-Cohen test largely tests cognitive empathy (the ability to understand and interpret others' emotions and perspectives). I have taken tests that cover all aspects of empathy, especially emotional empathy (feeling another person's emotions). I scored higher on all but one form of empathy than the neurotypical average, the one I scored lower was cognitive empathy. Overall, I scored significantly higher for empathy than the neurotypical average.

Different tests measure different things. None of them are definitive, or without flaws.

There are different types of empathy - I experience emotional or affective empathy, which means I can sometimes feel the emotions of others, or their negative emotions can make me feel distressed. However this can make it difficult for autistic people to respond appropriately, as the emotions may cause a meltdown or shut down, or we might not feel comfortable giving someone a hug. Cognitive empathy is being able to understand what someone else is feeling, and as I understand it this doesn't make you feel their emotions, it enables people to be sympathetic while being able to offer support from an emotional "distance". We're not usually good at this.

If I'm not sure what someone is thinking or feeling, I'll often just say "are you ok?"

My general feeling is that if someone wants to tell me how they are feeling then they should express themselves.  It is never wise to guess, or assume, basing those assumptions on how you'd feel if you were them in a given scenario.  Things don't play out that way.

Similarly expressions people make can be misleading.  You might think you saw something or associate a look with an emotion when another individual uses the same expression for something else entirely. 

In this place people often make introductions and give some insight into their situations or a current problem.  In doing so they might explain how they are feeling, or be in a position that is familiar.  I guess I've said that I empathise or even sympathise with some.  

I'd be inclined to go with Baron-Cohen's test result rather than any other, simply because I hold him in greater esteem due to his great experience.  Just my view. 

I don't think anyone likes the thought of being bereft of empathy, so when you think about it - probably too much - it can be a concern.  Isn't it enough to empathise with the fact that the OP is in a (generalised) unfortunate situation without having to actually add full detail for full empathetic experience here?   

I think you instinctively know if you care or not, and you shouldn't need to measure it.   If we find we are saying 'I empathise with your situation' are we just repeating the phrase or do we truly mean it?  Only we know.  My feeling is that quite often we are trying to be kind & sparing the feelings of others as we believe that is what others need to hear.   I accept, not always. 


By the way, I empathise with the fact you couldn't think of a name when you joined this forum!