Where's the line between my partner being abusive and being autistic?

pupi said:

You don't know the story either. And yet you choose to sacrifice someone who, in her distress, turned to help.

I choose nothing - precisely because it is not my place to do so.

All I can do is offer some undertanding to the poster and answer their questions based on what info they gave.

We don't know if she is also dishing out abuse (I hope not but she does talk about how she has found easy & reliable ways to trigger him) or if she is making this up for attention etc.

One thing I have learned from speaking to people on the internet in the last 3 decades is that you cannot take things at face value.

pupi said:

Would you give similar advice to your daughter?

Probably, but I would provide additional safeguards for her too and an escape plan if she needs out.

I have zero right to interfere in their relationship when she seems quite capable of making her own decisions. At best I would say "in your shoes I would do..."

You seem much more judgemental:

pupi said:

Get rid of him and quickly.

Yet for all we know the partner is a vulnerable individual whose autistic traits are being portrayed as abuse (just pointing out we do not know the facts) and in fact they are the ones who need the most immediate support to save them.

My heart goes out the the OP as I like to believe them but my advice must be tempered with the fact I have a partial picture, don't know the people and it isn't my place to make a decision for them.

I don't need to know what his story is and what will happen to him. I know that the partner is a partner and not his mother. She describes suffering, even abuse. Which probably continues for reasons like you wrote - that's completely wrong.
You don't know the story either. And yet you choose to sacrifice someone who, in her distress, turned to help.
All this just because he's probably autistic. As if it's a magic word that obliges other people to bear responsibility or causes blindness that confuses good and evil.

Would you give similar advice to your daughter?

I can sense the distress in the post and wish You and He well Gandalf_the_White.

What is going on in your home is what you have told us about. 

Why - you raise all sorts of possibilities.

I find that writing things down and sharing them helps me "pin down" thoughts and experiences so I'm thinking the same thing can happen/has happened for you by making this post.

How things change to a difference where you feel safer and what is going on is not distressing for you both is maybe the nest question to seek an answer for?

Sometimes it is a display of a special sort of strength to ask for help.

pupi said:

there is no reason in the world, no matter what, to suffer because of a relationship.

You don't know the full story here - none of us do and this statement could actually lead to a death.

IF (not an unrealistic stretch I feel) the male partner is unemplyed and unable to hold a job, living at home while the OP is the breadwinner and she takes your advice to kick him out then what happens next for him?

If there is no support network for him then he ends up on the streets, already struggling with his mental health and quite probably going to find himself in a situaiton where he ends up in prison (Germany is not very tolerant of the homless or people with mental health issues.

Even if he avoids prison then his violent behaviours could well end up with him involved in street fights or worse where if he isn't killed then his chances of taking his own life have jumped probably thousands of percent.

Does the OP need to be a saint and just tolerate it? Absolutely not, but if the consequences are homelessness for the partner then a better thought our separation plan is probably needed at worst or - if his symptoms all stem from his autism - then professional help at best.

These situations can be many faceted and we do not know if the OP is telling the whole story either - there could be a load of abuse we are not aware of (I'm not suggesting there is, this is just to illustrate the point).

I get where you are coming from here but life is rarely as clear cut as would suit this solution.

What ability does she need, masochism?

What does it matter what happens and why? Get rid of him and quickly. The problem is not with you and there is no reason in the world, no matter what, to suffer because of a relationship.

Extremely harsh and ill-conceived reply.

You are the caretaker for an abusive man. Sorry.

Something is triggering these meltdowns. He could be holding something in all day that's being let loose at home, his safe place. If you could somehow find out what's causing them, they might stop. For me, as a ND woman, it was work. I was masking my autism so hard at work, yet I was still being bullied and I was burnt out. I'd come home and start screaming, taking it all out on my poor husband who'd done nothing wrong, I didn't realise this behaviour hurt him because my own stress and overwhelm took over. In my mind, I was only hurting myself.

I left my job, felt more relaxed and it stopped. I hate to admit it, but I was ruining my relationship, there's only so much the other half can take. Autism is a reason but it's not an excuse. Maybe instead of saying how much he's upsetting you, ask him what's upsetting him. If he feels validated, he may open up more, and when he's not so stressed he may start to see your side too. It sounds like he is turning it back on himself because he is probably overwhelmed with something in his life and he can't relate to the stress it's causing you. 
Some people suggest being blunt, saying things like 'I need you to listen to me, I need you to tell me what is causing you to react like this'. 

I am autistic and been married 13 years I annoy my wife to hell and back with my odd ways . Like of patience and routines . I thrash a lot in my sleep and used to wake up 3.45 to walk the dogs . We argue but not for long 

You are perfectly entitled to expect him to do the work to build a better relationship. If he is autistic, there are still coping mechanisms that can be employed to the avoid or mitigate meltdowns. My autism diagnosis came about late in life because I was having what my wife thought were tantrums. Eventually she suggested I test for autism and I did. Turns out they were meltdowns. And now we work together to navigate the minefield. 

Knowing what the causes are is half the battle. He must learn what his triggers are, and what the signs are that there are meltdowns on the horizon. Then he needs to do whatever it takes to separate himself, or calm himself, or find his safe space until he calms down. 

Mindfulness, meditation, Tai Chi, and self-exploration would all be extremely beneficial if he's willing to undertake them. But he has to be willing. 

You say you are perimenopausal. In a strange way, this may allow you some insight into autism. When my wife went through perimenopause she had a periods of extreme emotional overload, which she found very hard to control. This is not too dissimilar to an autistic meltdown. And you sound like someone who takes responsibility for where they are and does what they can to improve themselves. Simply put, he needs to meet you on the same level. 

NAS90085 said:

I don't think seeing this through the prism of abuse is helpful.

This seems harsh.

The dynamics at play here are complex with both sides highly strung and mutually abusive based on what has been written (which I accept is only one side of the story).

The only thing they asked was:

Gandalf_the_White said:

If it were anyone else, I would say it was abusive. But, how does his autism play into this? What can I expect out of him?

There has been discussion here about whether this could be meltdowns or tantrums - we lack the information to draw a meaningful conclusion. I personally suspect that there could be both at play as they mention narcassism in the family (learned behaviour or as a condition it isn't clear) and some of the behaviour seems manipulative.

It is all highly speculative as we don't even know if he is diagnosed as autistic and lack the facts or professional skills to say more with confidence.

All we can reasonable do is offer her support, share our relevant experiences and suggest ways of getting professional help.

To quote the real Gandalf relating to the relationship issues here, "This foe is beyone any of you!".

A trained couples therapist is probably the only way through this in my opinion.

NAS90085 said:

Just leave him and find someone 'neurotypical'.

Or leave him and be single - this is a much more common solution these days and just as valid a choice.

I don't think seeing this through the prism of abuse is helpful.

It creates a fixed dynamic i.e. he is wrong, I am right. He is wronging me therefore he is an abuser. Should I stay with an abuser? Just based on the semantics, no, you shouldn't therefore, the only outcome is to leave unless you're just being extreme and venting online, in which case, all the responses are pointless.

Overall, you don't have the capacity to be with someone like that. You can't see a pathway to manage him effectively therefore your relationship is doomed. 

Just leave him and find someone 'neurotypical'. They come with drawbacks too. The question is will you able to deal with them and will you construe them as 'abusive' too? I think the latter will happen unless you look inward.

A tantrum can stop if the person throwing it wants to, is designed to manipulate and shouldn't be tolerated, a melt down can't be stopped and has to run it's course, isn't intended to hurt anyone and can only be avoided by avoiding the triggers, but I guess you know that.

What's concerning me here is that there seems to be zero consideration of your need even though you are verbalising that explicitly, so it can't just be an Autistic failure to read NT signals. There certainly does seem to be more going on here than just the fact that he's Autistic and sounds like he needs some help with that soon before he completely wrecks your relationship.

Gandalf_the_White said:

We moved from Spain to Germany where noise complaints could get us kicked out of our apartment and could make me lose my job (My boss gave us the apartment. It comes with my job. If she finds out we've gotten a noise complaint, she's going to fire me.).

Is there a chance he could be trying to sabotage your situation so you need to move back to Spain where he feels safer / more comfortable?

I've had a partner who tried this once because they wanted to move back but couldn't justify it so they tried to engineer a situation where the decision was forced on me. I'm still not sure if they were autistic or not though.

I should imagine the fact you are the breadwinner, he is an older male and he is dependant on you will casuse feelings of helplessness and inadequacy which will make him want to retreat to the familiar.

I spent 3 years working in Germany and found them to be quite unwelcoming to foreigners (not hostile, just cold) which made living there difficult - the language barrier and few friends.

Also the decision to move out of your shared bed - was this one you took together or did you make it on your own? If it was on your own then he will feel even more margianalised and losing what he could take comfort in before.

Maybe these are contributing factors, maybe not but they may help understand the bigger picture.

You maybe right Iain, but it's not unreasonable to expect a partner to respond with some sort of appology and a promise to attempt to change behaviour when they find out they're doing something hurtful.

Iain said:

remember I am just some random off the internet so don't do what I say without doing your own research.

Can you share your cedentials - I think I made it clear that my interpritations were lay ones and a professional should be engaged.

Iain said:

he is stuggling with things that are pushing him into tantrums (they don't sound like meltdowns as they are so short lived)

I don't understand how Iain formed this opinion (particularly as you didn't state how long these incidents typically last).

Regardless, even if they are very short (for example, 10 minutes), that could still be consistent with them being autistic meltdowns.

The advice link in my previous reply, along with this one, refers:

Reframing Autism - All About Autistic Meltdowns: A Guide For Allies

I'm sorry to hear that you are struggling with your relationship. 

I am a woman in my sixties on the autism spectrum with a long term partner who is very likely also ND, and have studied autism extensively - although I have no qualifications in counselling, therapy, psychology or psychiatry so please do not take any of my post as medical / professional advice. however, I  will try to guess what is happening in your partner's head so that it might give you a bit more understanding.

You told us that you have recently moved from one country to another. This will have caused him a great deal of stress as autistic people can have big problems with change, and there will be multiple changes such as new home, new surroundings, different people to deal with, different language, etc, which could be causing constant overload. You say that only you are working, so does he interact with other people at all and Is he fluent in German? If not, he's probably feeling isolated, and as he is not bringing in any money he is probably feeling guilty and suffering from low self esteem. If he is thrashing about in bed he is likely to be suffering from bad dreams and poor sleep, which will exacerbate his mental health issues, and although it's a good idea to sleep in separate rooms - as you need your sleep too - this may make him feel more lonely and maybe that you don't care for him as much as you did before.

These are as I said, just guesses. But here are some practical ideas of how I would deal with this situation if I was you:

I would encourage him to speak to a doctor about how he is feeling, so that he can be prescribed any medication the doctor thinks is appropriate to help him relax, sleep better and regulate his mood and emotions. Also encourage him to see a therapist as he has mentioned it.

I would try to raise his self esteem by asking him for help with things and thanking him or telling him he did a good job afterwards (this doesn't need to sound patronising, just something like "oh, I'm so glad you did that as it's saved me from having to do it before/after work") You don't say if he is able to work, but if he is you could encourage him to get some part time work, pointing out the strengths and abilities he has that would make him good at doing a certain job.

Try to build a schedule/routine into your week so that he knows when things are going to happen. Ask him to help with this and ensure you build in some time to do things together - even just cooking a meal together and watching a movie at home, so that you can both unwind and be relaxed with each other. If you need to change the schedule or are going to be home late, tell him as soon as possible.

Try to talk to someone else you trust about how you are feeling (or use a therapist) so that you get some support too. I don't think it's a good idea to tell him how you're feeling until his mental health improves as it could make him feel more guilty and worsen the situation for both of you.

When you get some quiet time together, ask him what he wants out of life and what will make him happy. Then you will be able to judge if you still both have the same aims in life and if so you can work towards them together. If not, it may be that you will sadly have to decide if you can both carry on in the relationship, and if not what practical things you need to do to make a breakup less devastating to both of you.

Regarding the gift you mentioned, it is often difficult for autistic people to say something nice about something they don't like - often we can't see why the truth would hurt someone's feelings. It isn't personal. Put it in a cupboard when you're not using it and forget about it.

Look after yourself and I hope things improve soon.

TheCatWoman said:

some people are just selfish and you have to decide if you can live with it or if you need to bail out

We are only hearing one side of the story too so I would expect a degree of bias (no criticism of the poster as this is human nature).

To be fair, it sounds like both sides are making the others life diffucult:

Gandalf_the_White said:

One sure way to get him to throw a fit is to tell him he's hurt my feelings. If I tell him something has hurt me, I don't get to be comforted. I get to watch him despair.

To me it seems like the Four Horsemen of relationship apocalypse are present for both parties ( https://www.choosingtherapy.com/four-horsemen/ ):

Criticism
Defensiveness
Contempt
Stonewalling

A good therapist will be trained in helping them strip things back and try to rebuild the core of the relationship so long as both are willing to work at it.

It may turn out that the best way forward is to separate but whatever conclusion is reached will be done together and a deeper understanding and appreciation will hopefully be found for one another.