National Service

The discussion about national service here in the U.K. seems to have sparked discussion back home in Ireland, as some Irish people want the Irish government to bring it in, in order to protect Irish neutrality, even though Ireland is part of the UN Security Council and Ireland might still join NATO - many people in Ireland believe that being a member of the UN, the EU, NATO, etc, breaches and is a violation of our original 1937 constitution, of which Articles 2 & 3 claim the 6 counties of Northern Ireland - many Irish people are concerned that a United Ireland (despite the Good Friday Agreement and the current Common Travel Area) would involve dropping our constitution, our flag, national anthem and our Irish identity - personally, I think that the Swiss model could work for Ireland (Switzerland being a neutral country) in which everyone over the age of 16 must do mandatory milltary service on a regular basis at least every 12 months in order to help protect the country’s neutrality - given Ireland’s centuries long history of conflict, given also the fact that our army, navy and air corps is woefully small and is highly dependent on both the Royal Navy and RAF to defend us from RAF bases in Wales, we Irish should be adopting the Swiss model of national service 

For me, having cPTSD, theres no such thing as good adreniline, only bad. I have done things that I've feared, but not really anything physical, I'm to clumsy and weird prone for things like abseiling to be a good idea. I'd be more likely to do a Boris Johnson and end up stuck, or in my case I'd probably end up upside down or the harness would come loose. That happened to me once on a fairground ride, I was bouncing around screaming and it was ages before they realised I wasn't screaming for fun, there was really something wrong. WIth my balance issues anything with heights is a bad idea and I'm terribly unco-ordinated, I swim like a brick too, I think even if I had a bouyancy aid on I'd somehow end up with it back to front and it would force my face under water.

Neither of my schools did any of the things you've described. Oddly enough I'm quite good at public speaking as long as I know my topic, the most difficult audience was the Womens Institute where I did a talk and demo of Indian Head Massage, they were so unruly and kept whispering to each other, I wonder if they were going to start passing notes! My family were never church goers so I never learnt to do anything there and I wasn't allowed to go to brownies or guides or anything like that.

I often wonder where these people get these ideas about stress and anxiety from, I wonder if they've ever suffered from it themselves, like all this people work best under stress stuff, I think it's utter testicles! Get a load of experts together and you can guarantee they'll come up with a load of stuff that either obvious or total nonsense that becomes gospel and no ones allowed to point out obvious errors or exceptions without becoming some kind of heretic at worst or spolisport at best. I know I've been that heretical spoilsport on numerous occaisions!

I don't have a problem with bees being able to fly, although I admit they do look like they shouldn't be able too. But then I dont' have a problem with quite a few things science says are impossible.

Maybe I was kept to safe as a child and not challenged enough or in the right way or encouraged for that matter, it's odd I dont' remember every being encouraged to do anything. I remember being told off for things I couldn't do and for something I could do but supposedly shouldn't, but never being encouraged.

Anyway enough of that this whole conversations giving me the heebie jeebies

I once attended a talk given by a former SAS soldier. He said that he was clinically diagnosed as a psychopath whilst serving. It helped him do his job. His job was to go into a high-risk situation and kill an " x-ray" - another human who had been identified by the proper authority as requiring to be killed. Job done, no regrets, no remorse. Killing an x-ray was like stamping on a cockroach. He was not in a command position because he was not good at nuanced decision-making, but he was (apparently) very good at his particular job, and the rest of us can sleep easier in our beds because of it.

You could easily tell when Boris was obfuscating. You could see his lips moving.

TheCatWoman said:

Is this your road in Brazil or the one you used to live in the UK? Because I imagine that they're rather different?

Ian is not Iain 

Some of my personal development came from "feeling the fear and doing it anyway."  When I did a stress management course, the participants were managers, social workers, psychologists ... and their most common anxiety was giving presentation, speaking in public. "  My first public speaking was reading the lesson in church at the age of eight ..   Nobody knew that I was autistic ... "Everybody gets anxious the first time - you will be OK."  I was, and it got easier, Baby steps ... presentations at Scouts, the Debating Society at school ... giving a presentation at a team meeting ... deliver an hour's lecture without notes ...  "  Feel the fear and do it anyway. I now know that the treatment for anxiety and phobias using cognitive behavioural methods is to slowly desensitise oneself.  Doing this as kids, whilst our brains are at their maximum plasticity, makes sense.

Talking of reading the lesson in church, one of the boys in Scouts was dyslexic. He memorised the reading and delivered it flawlessly. Those of us who knew respected him ... he could have just made an excuse, but he had the guts to put in the extra effort and do it anyway.

It's like the first time I tried abseiling. I was attached to a rope at the edge of a twenty foot drop. I still remember leaning back until I was vertical, and taking the first step down the wall. A mixture of terror, adrenaline rush and the inner voice telling me to trust my training.   Next it was being in a  parachute being towed behind a Land Rover at four hundred feet ... that was exciting.  I am still not happy climbing ladders, though!  What I have learnt from my time in Scouts and Cadets is 5P - Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Do your planning and risk assessment, feel the anxiety and just do it.

According to Vygotsky, learning happens at the "zone of proximal development" which is just at the edge of our comfort zone, where our arousal and attention is maximised just before it leads to stress and meltdown. For those of us with ADHD, that is our happy space.

According to scientists, a bumble bee ought not to be able to fly. It is aerodynamically impossible. But nobody told the bee, so he just does it anyway.

TheCatWoman 

"Is this your road in Brazil or the one you used to live in the UK? "   I am not sure what this signifies. Brazil? Where does that come from?

The Duke of Edinburgh's Award was designed to give all young people the opportunities that more fortunate young people can access. Prince Philip was educated at Gordonstoun School, a private school that specialises in the all-round development of students and is very strong on outdoor challenging activities, team building and developing leadership potential - not something readily available many state schools. The Award require young people to undertake community service. At Bronze level this can be training, e.g. completing a first aid certificate, fire safety course, etc. For higher levels they look for active participation as a volunteer in the community. The second requirement is to either develop an existing hobby or interest, or try something new. The third is physical fitness, which can be team sports or individual activities. Then there is an expedition where a small group of participants go off into unfamiliar territory and have to navigate, do their own cooking, and complete some sort of target.  The DoE operates through provider organisations, ranging from the military cadets and uniformed organisations, schools (as an optional after-school activity) ,and youth clubs to Young Offenders Institutions. The DofE Award was intended to stand alongside academic achievement as a measure of "soft skills" such as leadership, problem-solving and communication.

Some youth organisations do have some sort of oath or promise, but not all. The King is Head of State, and allegiance is to the King in the context of  " the Crown in Parliament" and our constitution, not to Charles Mountbatten-Windsor in a personal capacity. Members of HM forces do swear allegiance to the King. The clue is that we live in a United >Kingdom< ... not a republic. We tried that under Cromwell for eleven years.

 We have seen from the Paralympics that people with physical impairments can join if if given appropriate facilities - the social model of disability is that the limitation is not the impairment, but the barriers that society put in the way, whether in the built environment or attitudes.

I don't know what if any thought has been given to people with severe cognitive impairment or mental health difficulties, chronic alcoholics, substance mis-users etc. Individuals who need significant care themselves would presumably be exempt. Nor do I want to disparage individuals who have genuine anxieties and phobias. I assume that National Service would be subject to a similar "fitness to work" test as we have for sickness and disability benefits.

Doubtless we will have individuals with the equivalent of Trump's "bone spurs"  or the mental health equivalent who will try to claim exemption.

I wouldn't bet on it not being the parents responsibilty to provide kit just because the people are over 18. Student loans have a parental contribution, it's only if you're a mature student (over 21) that parents have no say or finanacial control. A student loan is a loan to the student, who is responsible for it's repayment, but the amount you're awarded is dependent on your parents income and a whoie load of paper work has to be provided to support this. I saw far to many students really struggling or having to give up their courses because their parents refused to pay their contribution. The process of being legally estranged from your parents was as burocratic, lengthy and required the co-operation of abusive, uncaring parents who often had issues of their own, such as substance abuse and mental health problems. I have no faith that something similar wouldn't be the case for young people in a national service situation.

Why, if you've done something like a Duke of Edinburgh Award would you need to do something else on top of it? If someone hadn't done one, would they be seen as lesser in someway for not having had that opportunity? To me it seems like another layer of division to add to an already divided society and the exact opposite of what is trying to be achieved.

Is this your road in Brazil or the one you used to live in the UK? Because I imagine that they're rather different?

What provision do you suggest for those of us with things like social phobia and mental and physical health problems? Or would we just be bullied and told we have to do things anyway and stop being snowflakes or whatever term of abuse is popular at the time?

Another thing about all these uniformed options you're giving, don't they all require an oath of loyalty to the monarch? What if you're a republican? Or is this yet another attempt to shore up support for monarchy and the archaic system that goes with it?

I suggested the various options on the assumption that there would be opportunities in urban areas, and there would be individuals in coastal areas, remote hillsides etc. for whom other options would work. If it were compulsory, I assume that the necessary kit and uniforms, safety gear etc. would be provided by the agency ... we don't expect people joining the army to buy their own uniforms and kit  (apart from officers' dress uniforms etc.)

Another alternative would be to actually enforce the current requirement that young people under 18 should either be employed and getting job-based training, or in education, either school or FE college, and actually learning useful skills. At present we have a cohort of under-educated, un-motivated and effectively unemployable individuals who are a burden on the welfare state. (Mind you, they do keep social workers and other public service workers in our jobs, so I shouldn't complain!)  

I used to feel exacyly the same as The Cat Woman about "teamwork" and a film (would you believe) completely changed my mind!

The film was called "Witness" and featured Harrison Ford.

We are talking 18+ i.e. young adults, so presumably they would not be parents' responsibility. If it were National Service all equipment, uniform or whatever would need to be provided, just as if they were in the military

A lot of autistic young people get involved with uniformed youth organisations - two autistic teenagers live in my road, one is in the Boys Brigade and the other was in Scouts before going to university. I was in the CCF (Combined Cadet Force) at school and in the Scouts - as you suggest, I liked the structure and the adventurous stuff suited my ADHD. Many of my peers were, like me, "weirdly wired" but undiagnosed.

The Duke of Edinburgh's award is delivered through schools and youth organisations, and could be incorporated into a National Service scheme as extra accreditation.

Presumably there would need to be some special  provision for individuals with physical or intellectual disabilities, mental health difficulties, social phobia etc.

SIA - Security Industry Authority - the body which licenses security cards.

Whats CCF and SIA?

What about those of us who don't do groups and teamwork? The ideas that you've come up with fill me with horror, I know I was brought up by someone who would never allow me do somethig where I had to wear a uniform, but the idea of all this militaristic structured training just seems weird!

Arn't there already things like The Duke Of Edinburgh Awards that do all this stuff with young people?

I'm dubious about things like making young people do things like search and rescue, will they be given the right equipment to enable them to do it? Or will it be another cash burden on financially over stretched parents? Will the state pick up the tab for young people in care?

You're obviously a person who enjoys group/team work and see's the value in it, I'm the opposite and I think it would either put me into melt down or engage my fight/flight responses to such a degree that it would be seriously harmful to me and those around me, I'd probably oscilate between fighting, fleeing and meltdowns.

I can see the value in something like the Civil Defence Corps.  Have a nucleus of permanent staff, and top up with volunteers and national service trainees. Train them in basic first aid, radio communications, rescue skills and how to deal with civil emergencies such as floods.  Link it to an NVQ so they get a qualification. Give the option of staying on as a volunteer and learn additional transferable skills. As with the TA, have an annual retainer and pay for days on duty, weekend training etc.

Encourage volunteering with HM Coastguard, RNLI, Mountain Rescue, RVS, Red Cross, St John Ambulance etc. to meet the required number of service hours.

At the same time, encourage schools to start CCF and support voluntary youth organisations working with younger kids - there are Scouts, Brigades, St John Ambulance, Red Cross, Police and Fire Cadets and loads of other voluntary youth organisations that offer structured programmes and need resources and leaders. Count service as leaders with such organisations as meeting the requirement.

Have a military option, but make it something useful ... not square bashing and busywork like some of the stories about the old National Service personnel painting coal white etc.. I am thinking something along the lines of the old TA / Home Guard who, in an emergency, could guard airfields and barracks and release more qualified service personnel for active duty. Again, this could include SIA training so that they could work as security guards on completion of their training commitment. I remember the military who supported the security at the London Olympic Games - this could be handled by National Service personnel with regular miltiary NCOs supervising. 

Young people with appropriate skills - and that could include some of our neurodivergent youngsters - could be involved in an apprenticeship  with the security services to tackle cyber crime and terrorism, possibly leading to permanent employment.

The insane Brain, goes mainly down the drain.

Repeat that line enough and you can become like me!

Captain Grover said:

Sane is the new insane. 

That sounded better in my head. 

You heard that voice too then? Spooky!

I Sperg said:

I don't allow myself to deliberately do it very often, but some days I guess I am less sane than on most.

Sane is the new insane. 

That sounded better in my head. 

It's one I never thought I'd have to type! 

I was talking to a friend, a Black (her identification, not my horrible racism) Lady, the other day about "Great Repacement Theory" the other day. 

After giving me the usual guff about how it's all right wing rubbish etc, she challenged me to prove it. I knew she was the sort who would give me a fair hearing, so I made an effort and did. To her satisfaction.

The figures (Available at the ONI, and many other sources) are clear and easy to see, and the reason it's a theory rather than a hypothesis is because a lot of work has been done to ensure that it is a true description of reality. NOT an emotional rallying point, just a plain description of an ongoing process.

Obviously, that's upsetting to some people (and of course they are full of vitriol) it was initially "unsettling" to me as I had no idea until I got exposed to it and sought to "debunk it" it properly for myself.

As a creationist of course I have a massive psychologcal advantage over the Atheists, whenever I meet an uncomfortable truth like "my kind and way of life is on its way out" OR "My cat is dying of cancer" I KNOW it's all part of the way things were created and planned to happen, and it's not my problem at all. It's just the way it is. 

I actually believe I am telling the truth there about "centrist heterosexual white christian" (males particularly)  receieving "organised abuse and marginalisation" and invite other people who fit that quite narrow description to tell me how wrong I am. Or stand up and tell your truth, whilst you have the chance!

Some days I really do play the part of that kid in the story about the emperors clothes...

I Sperg said:

You want to try being a centrist heterosexual white christian if you want to experience some proper oragnised abuse and marginalisation...

That’s a sentence I never thought I’d see.

ONLY once?

You got off lightly, trust me I get WAY more abuse regularly than that, just being the sort that I am...

You want to try being a centrist heterosexual white christian if you want to experience some proper oragnised abuse and marginalisation...