Rule 13: the last nail in NAS's coffin?

Yeah, I was just trying to speak to the potential harm. I haven't been particularly present in the threads with pictures of stool and throats so I'm certainly not calling out anyone for actually doing this. But it only takes two or three users or even less to seriously hurt someone in the wrong circumstance and we should be mindful of that rather than taking any rule change as an attack on the community. 

A very good point.

A thread of that nature has had some traction here recently (not quite the dynamic you describe, but similar).

I don't think that disclaimer is sufficient if it's not read by the person who is having symptoms of a serious medical condition that requires professional attention and is told by very enthusiastic posters that all they really need is a herbal remedy and it'll be grand. 

I imagine that's much more the concern, that a group of people with a lot of negative experiences with medical treatment might give someone the wrong "don't worry, that seems fine" advice when that strange symptom might be an indicator of bowel cancer. 

Good point - will start one now

Iain said:

Does anyone on here have experience of doing courses like these? I would appreciate their perspective on the level of challenge and usefulness of them.

A new thread?

Martin said:

A simple disclaimer should be sufficient, something along the lines of "Any medical advice given by forum members on this forum is a statement of their personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the National Autistic Society".

An excellent idea.

Please suggest they get advice from a professional.'

This could be construed as 'medical advice'. For example, if someone posted that they had chest pain radiating into an arm, then I would say that this is possibly a heart attack, phone for an ambulance, do not bother phoning 111, or waste time trying to see your GP. This is definitely advice, relating to a medical condition, is it 'medical advice'? It is also advice that could save a life, I would not like anyone to die for forum members being in fear of falling foul of a local rule. One put in place because of a theoretical concern by NAS of being sued. A simple disclaimer should be sufficient, something along the lines of "Any medical advice given by forum members on this forum is a statement of their personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the National Autistic Society".

What we really need are professionals who are trained in autism - I've never met one yet.

I have been investigating the routes to become a certified psychotherapist and most look like a 3 year university level courses that will cost me tens of thousands of pounds and 3 years of my life.

I believe there are shorter options available that lead to more of a therapist level qualification so I'm looking into these option to maybe start next Sept.

Does anyone on here have experience of doing courses like these? I would appreciate their perspective on the level of challenge and usefulness of them.

I should also say in my case 'what I did' would include the entire process of sueing a company without a lawyer. 'This is what I did,' could cover writing a letter before action, filing a claim with the court. Formulating a legal argument. Negotiating with the other sides lawyer. etc. I doubt NAS would be happy with that level of 'what I did.'

A large % I should think.

Agreed. The stresses we all face on a daily basis effects mental health massively.

Legal professionals are costly, some health professionals are hopeless (in my experience).

I've found the exact same. What we really need are professionals who are trained in autism - I've never met one yet.

Iain said:

Shifting the user base to another forum will not really help as the legal implications will soon enough follow and the other site will discover the same costs and risks that will cause them to adopt the same rules.

As the some one now running the other forum in question I intend to keep a keen eye on things. I've known other people to run similar things. Namely this guy https://www.kingqueen.org.uk/dart/ They have (or had) an invite only disability suport forum for people sueing over equality act issues. They seem to have been ok. But they are very careful.

In these days of extreme litiginous is is no wonder the site has to create this caveat otherwise they could become liable for any piece of bad advice from one of the users (over which they have no control).

I've had people on here telling me to go kill myself, and if I did follow through with this then my family could have a legal case to come after NAS and sue them.

They are most likely struggling for funding and having to spend money defending legal cases from any random who turn up on the forum is less money they have to spend on positive help for others.

Shifting the user base to another forum will not really help as the legal implications will soon enough follow and the other site will discover the same costs and risks that will cause them to adopt the same rules.

Debbie is right - to cover ourselves legally we cannot offer advice, only our opinion and we should always make clear that this is the case.

I'm wondering if there is an anxiety about being sued with regard to this?

Anyway, since I've been on this forum (less than a year) suicidal people have been helped by the 'kindness of strangers' (out of mods hours).

I really think that the assistance given here with regard to mental health has been invaluable.

I wonder what % of threads are actually on mental health overall.

A large % I should think.

Legal professionals are costly, some health professionals are hopeless (in my experience).

I think the new rule does seem over the top. I would have thought that the addition of a disclaimer added to any such posts should suffice. Along the lines of I'm not a medical/legal professional, do not take what I say as advice, see a doctor/lawyer if you are worried.

Many of us have difficulty accessing health services in particular. In my experience health services are the worst for offering reasonable adjustments such as communication other than by phone. Getting past the hostile receptionists to even see a GP can be a nightmare. Then if we do get to see one they are not knowledgeable about the issues that us autists tend to suffer from and often attribute everything to anxiety/depression.

There was a discussion on here recently where a medical professional had suggested that a young autistic person had Munchausen Syndrome because tests had failed to diagnose. Based upon how difficult and stressful accessing healthcare is for autistic people the suggestion that any of us would be making up symptoms is incredulous. I would hope that the new rule would still allow suggestions to be made in response to any future posts such as this.

https://community.autism.org.uk/f/health-and-wellbeing/33002/physical-health-of-my-19-year-old

Well, with regard to my second post, I reckon that most of us aren't giving advice, but just talking about what works for us.

We can always include a caveat.

If moderaters wanted to clarify the interpritation of rule 13 they are wellcome to do so. But I doubt they will. They generally want to keep rules as vuage as posible to give them selves wiggle room.

Also, most of us qualify what we say.

For example, when I was talking about antidepressants and side-effects I said that everyone responds differently to drugs.

Efficacy and side-effects are individual.

I know that you say something similar to 'this isn't legal advice'.

So I should think that's OK?

Thank you Peter.

I'm just posting it here for info:

'This update includes a new rule 13 ' Users should not provide medical or legal advice to other users. Giving medical or legal advice can have serious consequences, even if you’re trying to help another member. Please suggest they get advice from a professional.'

I think we need to consider what 'advice' is in this context.

For example, if we say 'I did this, and it worked for me' that's not advice, but just relating experience.

I must say I am shocked that this rule has been put in place.

Many people come here for advice and support because there's literally nowhere else we can access it. And from what I've seen a lot of people seek advice here and then when reassured or advised they usually seek advice from a doctor anyway. But sometimes I think people need that first contact with people here who understands.

To take that away from people I think is a mistake. In a world where we have no one but each other, take that away and it's a lonely place.

Ultimately, no one's fighting for us; in the last Garrison.

We ultimately have to help ourselves.

Everything's aimed at kids, because the mothers are the key marketing, and electoral, Demographic. They're the Kingmakers, in this House of Cards. They try to be their kids' best friend, while yapping on the phone about Consumer Protection Regulation; or any other piece of legislation with Karen stamped on it.

"The Internet and Public Services give free education." (Scroobious Pip - Get Better)