Published on 12, July, 2020
Today completes an important step for the National Autistic Society. Today with Rule 13 they complete the abdication of responsibility for supporting autistic adults reaching out for help.You may remember in 2021 that the National Autistic Society closed its general helpline. There was a thread about it on this forum. As was pointed out at the time from that point onwards this forum became the only port of call at the National Autistic Society for help for people who did not qualify for one of the remaining helplines.And the remaining helplines pertain to children in school, children leaving school and parents of autistic children. The National Autistic Society has become a defacto children’s charity leaving autistic adults out in the cold.Now not content with refusing to help autistic adults they now seek to reduce autistic adults ability to help each other. I fully admit that a bunch of amateurs on an autistic support forum is a poor substitute for professional help. However the vast majority of those seeking such help now have nowhere to go professional or otherwise.Some of you know that I also brought a lawsuit against an organisation for discrimination. I reached out to the citizens advice bureau and got no useful help. I reached out to the EASS and they said that they couldn’t help me because the other party would not engage with them. I wrote to established academics with a background in discrimination law and autism and they said they couldn’t help me.Yes I rang that autism helpline back when it existed, back when I tried to get some justice and they said we can’t help you. But at least I spoke to someone who admitted that he was supposed to be able to help me. That helping me was what he was there for.With regard to the law when you bring a case for discrimination most of the time legal aid is not available. This is in part because the majority of discrimination cases go through the small claims track which is intended to operate without lawyers.Something similar applies to the health service. It’s very easy for autistic people to get sidelined in the health service particularly if they are bad at articulating their needs and concerns. Again I know this from personal experience.At this point if autistic adults come to this forum or the loved ones of autistic adults come to this forum and say they are having difficulty with the law or discrimination or a medical issue rule 13 interpreted strictly means that we can provide no helpful advice other than pointing to sources of help that in fact do not exist.For quite some time now I have run a website dedicated to helping autistic people defend their rights and oppose discrimination. I chose not to include a forum on that website because I was aware that policing it could involve a substantial amount of work. However this development has persuaded me to change my mind. So I’m announcing that areyoualien.uk now has a forum for autistic people. The focus of this forum like the website is advocating for autistic rights in government policy and the law and opposing discrimination. You are all very much welcome there.
Thank you Peter.
I'm just posting it here for info:
'This update includes a new rule 13 ' Users should not provide medical or legal advice to other users. Giving medical or legal advice can have serious consequences, even if you’re trying to help another member. Please suggest they get advice from a professional.'
I think we need to consider what 'advice' is in this context.
For example, if we say 'I did this, and it worked for me' that's not advice, but just relating experience.
Please suggest they get advice from a professional.'
This could be construed as 'medical advice'. For example, if someone posted that they had chest pain radiating into an arm, then I would say that this is possibly a heart attack, phone for an ambulance, do not bother phoning 111, or waste time trying to see your GP. This is definitely advice, relating to a medical condition, is it 'medical advice'? It is also advice that could save a life, I would not like anyone to die for forum members being in fear of falling foul of a local rule. One put in place because of a theoretical concern by NAS of being sued. A simple disclaimer should be sufficient, something along the lines of "Any medical advice given by forum members on this forum is a statement of their personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the National Autistic Society".
Not a problem.
My apologies Martin. I thought I had a "brain storm" of what I thought was an original idea without throroughly reading through to your own excellent suggestion--sorry.
The rule is specific to small claims track cases. Which is where a lot of discrimination cases end up. If you’re interested this is the legal statutory instrument www.legislation.gov.uk/.../made
Yes, there are McKenzie friends who can support litigants in person, but they are not supposed to give legal advice, nor are they allowed to address the court.They are allowed to take notes and offer "suggestions" but their main role is emotional support.
Some Tribunals allow non-lawyers to represent both appellant and respondent. I have represented a friend's child at SENDisT and apeeared against the SEN officer from the LEA. But unless it is a straightforwad case (as this was) it is best to getlegal advice. The local authority officer will probably have been briefed by their legal department.
The best thank you is people signing up and using it that way there was a point to it all.
Respectfully, I understand why that would affect you personally. I don’t think it will be relevant to the vast majority of people on this forum. You’re not bound by a professional bodies guidelines or subject to its investigations if you’re not a member of that professional body. Certainly practising without a license is a crime. I don’t know about medicine but for law at least it’s quite a narrow definition.
for example did you know that in legal cases there is such a thing as a lay representative? The courts allow individuals with no formal qualification or accreditation in law to stand up and speak on behalf of someone else. It was intended to allow a friend to speak in civil court for another friend who is perhaps nervous or not very good at being organised. That said there are lay representatives who even charge money for it. Even though they’re not registered with any kind of professional body.
you could be sued of course for giving someone bad advice. But I doubt it would be a big concern if you were very clear that the advice was not meant to be a substitute for professional advice. That the advice was not being provided on a professional basis, Pro bono or otherwise. And again I can’t see NAS being sued. Especially if they have their own disclaimer making it clear that opinions and advice offered on this forum are not endorsed by NAS.
Peter said: It took time to put all that together you know.
Thank you.
Peter - the largest risk is not litigation but the prospect of a complaint to a professional regulator. These can be very messy, stressful and expensive.
The only real legal threat, I imagine, would be if anyone giving advice here claimed to have relevant medical qualifications. Otherwise the situation is the same as if anyone got medical or legal advice from 'someone down the pub'. The pub landlord is not liable, neither is the NAS, especially if they employ a disclaimer.
I'm unconvinced about the likelihood of such lawsuits but placing that aside I respectfully disagree about resourcing. Charities like NAS exist to promote the interests of autistic people. At this stage I feel the average autistic adult has it far worse than the average autistic child. I believe this emphasis on children is driven by NAS's shift from being a charitable advocacy group to a charitable services group acting as a government intermediary providing social care / education type services. Because of course most of those government funded services are aimed at children. So no I don't really think it's about need at this stage. They are just following the (government) money.
Anyway you can find my solution at areyoualien.uk. It took time to put all that together you know.
Peter said:My feeling is that all this demonstrates is that NAS is more concerned with covering their ass legally than ensuring autistic adults get the support they need.
The BIG problem with this is that going after NAS with lawsuits will take away resource from those who need the support way more than adults do - i.e. the childred.
They have finite resources and are quite rightly (in my opinion) chosing to focus on the most needy and those who are not able to advocate for themselves in the same way that most adults can.
Lack of funding is not likely to change anytime soon so I believe we need to take responsibility within the community and do all we can (within sensible legal guidelines) to try to assist others.
I would like to see more people become a part of the solution.
I'm more concerned with the effect than how it's meant.
My feeling is that all this demonstrates is that NAS is more concerned with covering their ass legally than ensuring autistic adults get the support they need. If that seems harsh, Well I would be less harsh if more of the services they used to offer to autistic adults were still in place.
Yeah, I was just trying to speak to the potential harm. I haven't been particularly present in the threads with pictures of stool and throats so I'm certainly not calling out anyone for actually doing this. But it only takes two or three users or even less to seriously hurt someone in the wrong circumstance and we should be mindful of that rather than taking any rule change as an attack on the community.
A very good point.
A thread of that nature has had some traction here recently (not quite the dynamic you describe, but similar).
I don't think that disclaimer is sufficient if it's not read by the person who is having symptoms of a serious medical condition that requires professional attention and is told by very enthusiastic posters that all they really need is a herbal remedy and it'll be grand.
I imagine that's much more the concern, that a group of people with a lot of negative experiences with medical treatment might give someone the wrong "don't worry, that seems fine" advice when that strange symptom might be an indicator of bowel cancer.
Martin said:A simple disclaimer should be sufficient, something along the lines of "Any medical advice given by forum members on this forum is a statement of their personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the National Autistic Society".
An excellent idea.