Forum changing

Glitter said:

Unfortunately in the reporting system on this site there's no way to say why you're bringing a particular post to a mods attention.  The only option is to flag it for abuse.  

You could e-mail the community manager communitymanager@nas.org.uk about the post with its link, involving either a screen-shot or just a copy and past job of it, as being one possible work around.

Personally, I like that it's a place that represents it's users, whatever that may look like.

If it organically has become ________ then that is what the community needs at that time. I'm sure it will go through many other phases in serving our needs so, I pick it up and put it down as and when I need it, like any other tool.

Hope you stay with us though

I concur. Well stated.

I feel like I personally owe a fuller and more detailed apology about Crispgate as I was jointly to blame. I have previously privately done so to Debbie as she was the one most critically affected and when she almost left over the cascade of events afterwards I felt sick about it and very remorseful. I promise not to do anything like it again. I can’t promise I won’t be silly again but I won’t recklessly flood the forum with multiple simultaneous posts about silly variations on a silly theme. 

The background to my misjudgment  is surprising complicated. Many months ago, we briefly had in our midst a very kind and fragile soul who’s User name I won’t say as it’s not my place to. She was always a very big-hearted and supportive presence on the site, telling people they were perfectly fine as they were no matter their life situation, that ‘god loves you’ and so on. She’d clearly had trauma in her past (regrettably but almost inevitably at the hands of men) and it left her very easily triggered (feeling got at with the mildest of counterpoints if she was having a bad day, but weathering those things more robustly on a good one) and she would occasionally talk about that in one of her more atypically’dark’ threads that she’d start. Then some days she just seemed to need some light and innocent fun - posting links to old adverts or songs or whatever. Anyway, she very kindly sent me a friend request out of the blue one day (Ive never initiated contact - except to apologise to Debbie!- and when anyone wants to be my friend I’m always astonished and grateful). Well, over a few days we regularly chatted. All very platonic and innocent stuff - just links to songs or music we liked, have you seen this film trailer, and a little bit about shared interests and lifestyle similarities - living alone, hobbies, scifi etc. 

Then, overnight, she changed her username and deleted me as a friend. I sent one final message to say that I hoped I’d not said or done anything to upset her and that I wouldn’t contact her privately any more, but hoped to see her continue to be a welcome and largely positive contributor to the threads. 
within one more day, she was gone - a deleted user. I felt sad and confused (had it been so implausible to her that I was maintaining an agenda-less friendship that she freaked out?) but more than that concerned and hoping she’d be ok. It’s also possible that it had nothing to do with me at all and is just her pattern. Join something,  become all or nothing for a time, then go on a whim, leaving people missing her but not meaning to hurt them. Just a fight it flight response I suppose.

Anyway, cut to last month. Or was it December? A new user appeared - it’s recent enough that I’ll not conceal the name as you’ll recall who it was - Ladybird. But I spotted straight away that she was not, in fact, new, but my erstwhile friend who’d vanished suddenly without a goodbye those months prior. Her writing style, her chosen avatar, some of the things she mentioned made it as unique as any finger-print: this was the same person back, willing to make a fresh start with the forum. As she seemed to want a fresh slate I didn’t reach out privately (and don’t do that anyway) and didn’t say in the public side either that I’d recognised her. So I just participated in some of the threads she started in exactly the way I would in any other - no special treatment sought or expected! She goes silent for a few days, then suddenly its Saturday, she’s in a good mood, and she comes on the forum seeking a bit of light banter. One of the treads is about crisps. Then another. Then another. Then one about shoes. Then one about decor. Then one more about crisps. So I’m seeing the funny side but thinking ‘hope this doesn’t get too out of hand’ and I’m also aware based on the past that she’ll likely tire of the joke and become a little more centred and convenientonally  supportive in a day or so. I posted some mildly silly comment in one thread and she says - to me specifically- ‘PM me’. I’m not sure if she’s about to confess to being my friend of old. And in fact she doesn’t. She says ‘let’s have some fun. We’ll start some more crisps threads as a sort of special interests parody and then in a couple of days we’ll fess up it was just a bit of a prank’. This is where I’m afraid I was rather immature. Despite the fact that I hate practical jokes, I was so pathetically grateful to have my friend back (my innate assumed toxic masculinity hadnt it seemed scared her away that first time at all) that I didn’t want to jeopardise a rebuilt bridge by being too po-faced and saying ‘well now I’m not sure this is such a good idea’. So I took the rather child-like decision to be her partner in crime for the night. And went with the flow. It was a tiny moment of levity in a very grim week as well and I was weak willed in the moment instead of being more adult about it. Well, by the time there were ten crisp threads I was feeling pretty uneasy but the reward was that she did reveal her identity, said she was sorry about what happened before, and asked ‘friends?’ And I was so relieved that, crying, I typed back ‘friends’. I had my wee friend back, and she didn’t hate me after all. But the iron price soon followed. Poor Debbie rightly raised the issue of crisis posts getting buried, Ladybird got a little over-defensive, and things turned very not nice for a while. And I feel horrible about it, and I’m deeply sorry for my own weakness in choosing one connection over the overall good of the forum. I hope you can all forgive me, and that this context helps a little with doing so. Or maybe I’ve made it worse, I don’t know. I’m confessional by nature so I’m getting it off my chest. 

As you know, Ladybird left soon after anyway. So I lost my friend a second time, and had done some needlessly reckless things during her brief return just to try and stabilise her presence here. (Once the crisis thing was over!) that it’s hard to defend with hindsight. Anyway, I do feel true remorse about it and I’ll be more mature in future. Especially as my selfishness nearly cost this forum the continued presence of one of its most compassionate members, Debbie. Who deserves the biggest apology of all. She’s already been very gracious about it to me, but as it’s been brought up tonight again as an all time low for the forum I felt compelled to say all if the above in an attempt to draw a line through reconciliation and -hopefully - the collective forgiveness of those who the whole thing most annoyed. 

I think it's just self-seeking. The whole 'Diversity' thing has been pushed on them by schools and popstars.

They might regret that, when they get older. However, there are sinister elements; who transend Left/Right politics. 

I have noticed a little difference in the mood of the forum, crispgate was a definite low in the proceedings. The trans posts have been the elephant in the room, this is uncomfortable for some, everyone is equal, neurodivergent people I think have a wide acceptance of most things, this isn’t me taking sides or having an opinion on this, what ever anyone wants to be or is, it’s brilliant, be what you are or want to be, some posts seem to load the gun and then see who fires it,  I love people for their personality, I’m more hearts than parts.

More older people seem to be joining as there are most probably 3 generations of undiagnosed people, it’s the realisation of, I’m autistic and hid for so many years. I love to see how young children get to be diagnosed at an early age, it’s such a boost to the rest of their lives.

Untoward said:

You are a bully

Yes, I'm feared throughout the land.

*rolls eyes*

You are a bully, plain and simple. You see yourself as righteous and that everyone who doesn't agree with you is to be trampled and kicked out. Marxism at it's finest. This has been a struggle session. Everything old is bad, make way for the new and censor and ostracise anyone who remembers what came before.

Regardless of change - some of it merely politically expedient - if you somehow view the current state of play as the establishment generally being at one with historically-persecuted and oppressed peoples then it is you whose perspective is flawed to the point of tragically ironic hilarity. You are not oppressed, you are not a victim; you're merely someone whose opinions are, at best, out of date. And that's my kindest interpretation.

Untoward said:

Do you mean me? I don't even know who you are or that you are non-binary. I'm not advocating for anyone to say hurtful things to you.

Yes, I'm saying that your words were hurtful.  It doesn't matter what your intentions were.  You made an assumption about non-binary people in general which was offensive.  Whether you had particular people in mind or not, claiming that people are just making things up about their gender identity or their neuro status is belittling and prejudiced.

But I'm also trying to say that I understand how you feel about being left out and I sympathise.  And I'm suggesting that rather than turn it into an argument about your intentions, which are already understood, you accept gracefully that you made a mistake and try not to make it again.

But I'm ducking out of this thread now because it's becoming far too unsettling.

The government, the media, every school, university and institution, every corporation and charity and NGO, and the moderators here are all on your side and will endlessly defend you. Numerous people jumped to your defence immediately wish gushing posts whilst I stand alone.

How is it possible for you to still see yourself as the victim? My previous comment defending myself was just deleted, and this one probably will be too. All the power is with you. I went out of my way to be accommodating and respectful, whilst you attacked me, and I'm still the bad guy.

It's very clear there are only two outcomes here: I supplicate myself, avoid voicing my own opinions, and endlessly second guess myself lest I commit wrongthink; or I leave. Either way, you have won.

So goodbye, and congratulations.

Shardovan said:

I hope in fact that Glitter, RT and others feel doubly committed to staying

Yes, I very much hope so too.

This so-called policing we're all meant to fear is so ineffective that the victims are now despicably cast as the persecutors. Some police force...

So whose opinions are *really* being suppressed? The overall narrative is now being so deliberately skewed that we're expected to feel most sorry for those who might get an occasional telling-off for using incorrect pronouns (awww!), not the people who identify themselves with those pronouns and so face prejudice and even violence.

Glitter said:

So when someone labels my entire birth sex as the source of the problem

I have not done this. I'm actually not sure what your birth sex is, but to be clear: there is no problem with whatever it is. There are lots of autistic women who I feel a lot of solidarity with and who have been supporting towards me.

Glitter said:

actually it's not the left wing or liberal voices that are dominating here

They dominate here, and everywhere. You will be showered with support, anyone going against it will be shunned.

Glitter said:

These are not labels that I collect for fun

Then what I said surely wasn't about you.

Glitter said:

People keep insisting on their right to say hurtful things and demand that I not get offended by it because it's not what they meant

Do you mean me? I don't even know who you are or that you are non-binary. I'm not advocating for anyone to say hurtful things to you.

I think there is an overlap with the gender stuff because autistic people often don't feel like they belong or identify with what's "normal". So in the past, an autistic woman might have not really felt much like other women. Now there are many labels for this (most of which I don't understand). That means there has been an influx of people with radically different ideas into a space that was previously very male. Two communities that were previously on opposite ends of the political spectrum with very little in common that would never have interacted are now inextricably joined together and so the autistic community has become unrecognisable.

As a result of that, there is a lot more political ideology and activism, autism is being turned into another label to identify with rather than a disorder.

That’s my biggest worry, and why I weighed in maybe a little too hard. I hope in fact that Glitter, RT and others feel doubly committed to staying after reflection, even if it means sometimes stepping around some energy-sapping hot-spots/bait in favour of kinder and more inclusive threads with a clearer aim of mutual support. Thankfully that’s far and away the main content on here no matter what. 

Funny how those whose opinions are so 'suppressed' somehow get their say and also stick around despite 'being made to feel so unwelcome'...while those who genuinely suffer because of those opinions feel driven to leave.

Please don’t quit. This place needs diversity to remain healthy. Maybe it was insufficiently diverse and healthy before if it truly was a ‘safe space for men’ - or boys club as you less opaquely put it. I haven’t been here long enough to know (thank goodness by the sounds of it). We know that women were underserved for years by studies and discussion and diagnosis. But now apparently people who aren’t cis het men are getting a fair presence on boards like this (because they’ve followed the same path of struggle to it as any man has) they get accused of collecting trophies - as if investing time here and painfully pouring their hearts out is some way to be ‘bang on trend’. Just… no. Is there maybe more eloquent and deep expression of feelings? Maybe. And good! Is there increased ‘policing’ by women or non binary people? No. Just self-advocacy of the sort sorely needed because insufficient numbers of blokes can be relied on to be truly supportive and inclusive. But there are a few of us. Maybe I’m a touch more female-brained than the average essentially cis-het man (autistic or otherwise), I can only hope so as it seems that empathy is often surprisingly lacking even in ‘outsider’ communities because old school received wisdom and male entitlement infiltrates even large numbers of the neurodiverse. 

And this is another example of offending people without meaning too.

You say you feel marginalised and isolated, well I have to say that I have felt the same recently, especially today.  And this post has actually made me feel like quitting.  

I'm non-binary, though many people see me as female.  It took me over a decade to get my diagnosis of autism, but I did get it.  These are not labels that I collect for fun, they are real and difficult things that I deal with. I have exactly the same difficulties with socialising and forming connections.  I have suffered rejection all my life and been taken advantage of multiple times.  But I haven't given up hope that there is a place for me and I keep looking and keep getting left outside the circle.

You might have enjoyed your boys club as it was, but the world is bigger than that and other people have the right to find their voice too.  But actually it's not the left wing or liberal voices that are dominating here, it's the ones holding onto traditional values that leave certain groups of people out.

I've tried to help people be more aware of how their words impact others, but I feel very unheard.  People keep insisting on their right to say hurtful things and demand that I not get offended by it because it's not what they meant.  

If I say that those women didn't mean to leave you out of their clique, they were just trying to share their experiences, does that make it any less painful for you?  Probably not, because the experience of being left out is still the same.

There's no divide between autistic women being more functional than autistic men.  I've only done what I've had to do to survive, and it's left me deeply damaged.  So when someone labels my entire birth sex as the source of the problem, and negates and belittles the challenges that I've faced, then yes that is hurtful.  

I'm not saying any of this to attack, just pointing out that there are two sides.

It's very good of you to explain. Thank you for that.

Yours is a valid point about rapid and confusing change, I think. It's (arguably) difficult for all of us.

I'm sorry, I tried really hard rephrasing what I wrote multiple times in order to avoid offending people, but I have failed. I was not meant to be about all women, it is a small subset who are often women who have this behaviour. It is definitely different, it is a change I have noticed, these people did not exist and did not behave like this 10 years ago.

It's very difficult for me to express this. My problem is I have never known where the line is, so I often put my foot in it, particularly for noticing things that seem obvious to me but that everyone else appears to be pretending isn't happening (from my perspective). In the last 5 years things have changed so quickly that I just can't keep up, I don't understand anything and it seems to be impossible to talk about it. All I know is I haven't changed, everyone around me has as well as the language.

I don't understand what the rest of your comment is about or who you are referring to.

Well, considering that you don't mean to offend anyone, you somehow generalised in a negative way about women while lamenting the struggles of the very people whose ardent and supposedly forbidden opinions have made this place unpleasant recently. Apparently, those people are to be considered victims, even though they - inevitably and tellingly - despise claims of victimhood. They are the first to cry 'excuse!' at all manner of others' difficulties, yet now we're supposed to accept their Autism as an excuse for their behaviour and attitudes?

Try again.