Socializing

Anonymous said:

Incidentally, people seem to rather enjoy the 'role-play' that they're so fluent in and comes so naturally to them it often appears to me... what to me seems like pointlessly overblown emotive melodramatic histronics that serves as nothing more than a distressing waste of energy, spoken about afterwards (once they've calmed down) is often described as this wonderful release of negative emotional energy...

I sometimes feel that some people worry that I don't engage in that sort of thing, and that they'd even like me to do it from their own perspective, kind of like engaging in a loving social 'rough and tumble'... even when it seems to me like a horrible argument full of the nastiest nonsense that they clearly don't literally mean.

LOL, very well written and clearly expresses an accurate evaluation of social interactions.

You obviously have excellent social skills.

Hope - That is just awful what happened to you and that you gave up on drama, have you thought about going back into it/ finding a local theatre company?

My daughter had a bad experience over the summer, we sent her to a workshop at a stage school a family friend's daughter works for, initially she liked it as she made friends with a girl who liked monster high (that is her major obsession). The first day it was all about dance and she loved it, she was excited about her second day as they were going to be taught drama, the teacher was apparently very mean, shouting at them for no reason and at one point said she was 'very unimpressed with their performance', that really knocked my daughter's confidence. Then on the final day when it was the performance for us parents my daughter had most of her lines stolen by one of the older kids, she told the teacher who told her to just get on with it. She was devastated and as soon as we got her out of there she broke down crying and was inconsolable for hours, they almost completely crushed her confidence and enthusiasm for the arts.

I looked around and found another local stage school who were having an open day the following weekend so I booked her in to have a try at street dance and drama. She loved it so much and they were all so friendly she ended up staying for 4 hours trying out all sorts of dance styles and I knew it was a good place because even I felt at ease and was able to talk to the teachers/principal they were all so nice. We signed her up there and then and she's been doing tap dance, street dance, peformance troupe and musical theatre every week since. She's doing really well too, as I said the teachers were very impressed with and put her straight into grade 2 tap and level 3 street dance when she has no prior training and she is in the highest drama group with kids twice her age. She recently had her first audition and has been given one of the leading roles in their annual production, she's also going to be performing in the west end next spring with her performance troupe and they are supposed to be going to disneyland paris next year to perform. It's really really helped her alot not just with gaining her confidence again but also with social skills, turn taking, etc she's been going since the beginning of September and the difference is amazing. 

Yes, I see what you mean I find those kinds of situations intolerable also sadly.

It is a shame you were excluded - but being able to discuss it here indicates your level of social awareness, and social capability in a different context.

Posting here is no less of a social activity, even if it is in a different form, so how can we categorically define these difficulties as 'social' and say that you are incapable of socializing?

Without wanting to sound flippant, I sometimes wonder about some kind of 'remote vehicle' for autistics to participate in such activities without feeling completely overwhelmed - forcing people to take into account the 'bottle-neck' of information processing that occurs for them and allowing them to contribute in a fashion that is comfortable for them.

Socializing is definately something very real.  Engaging in it requires a whole host of skills and sensitivities to which I am generally blind too.  These skills extend into pretty much every aspect of life.

I was at a conference yesterday which I really enjoyed, during the speaker panels' Q&A I was fairly dominant in critically egaging with their ideas and offering my own interpretations and advice.  Afterwards however there was a networking session aimed at developing a professional body, I knew that was a debate I would be excluded from - not because anyone there would deliberately leave me out, but simply because I lacked the currency with which to engage in exchange.  So I left.

Just because something seems invisible doesn't mean that it isn't there, indeed, somethings can be more obvious in their absence.

You know, thinking about it, I'm not even sure what socializing is... isn't that doing nothing around other people?

And autistics are actually just as skilled at doing things as non-autistic people except socializing - which is basically doing nothing - feels so natural to non-autistics that they just incorporate it into everything that they do...

So we struggle in society, because we can't do nothing around other people.

I'm sorry, I'm confused now too... what is socializing?

Azaezl:  Your daughter sounds similar to how I was at that age. It is great that she has been given the chance to be creative and to act. Sadly, when I was at school, I was never picked for roles in Nativity plays or other school dramas. The key roles always went to the most popular children in the school, and because for a long time I was not confident enough to put my hand up and ask for things, I was left out. When I went to secondary school, this trend continued. I was the 'shy girl', always alone in the play-ground, quietly keeping to myself in the class, being nice and polite, so no-one took any interest in me.

Then, as I grew older, I became more rebellious, and started to misbehave in some lessons. I would say silly things and make up vulgar stories, such as telling everyone that I had had sex with my dog !. I did this to get attention, but I got into serious trouble when my Dad, who was a teacher, got phoned up by a girl's mother, telling him what I had said. My Dad was very worried because these stories, which were completely untrue, could have put his job in danger.

So I was a strange contradiction: outspoken and badly behaved in some classes, a goody-goody in others. But still I was ignored. I had friends in year 7, but they all left me.

I matured after I did my GCSEs , and actually took drama as an AS level, getting a C grade. I wanted to do drama because no-one had let me do it in the past. I never experienced stage-fright or anxiety when in the  spot-light, but I burst into tears when a very popular girl criticised me for not standing in the right place on the stage. She kept on  criticising me and this dented my self-esteem and meant that I gave up drama for A levels proper. I am not that into acting, but I love lecturing and talking to groups of people, because I am the centre of attention.

''Autistics hate the spotlight'': some do, some don't.  In fact, I LOVE the spotlight - I am an extreme attention-seeker, however because of my social difficulties I  can come across as shy, mainly because I struggle with small-talk and spontaneous banter. When in these situations, I sometimes prefer to listen and observe until I am comfortable enough to talk. And then I find it very hard not to enter 'lecture mode' as I call it, by talking about something very serious for a long time. I  have learnt to repress this part of my character when out volunteering, but once I feel increasingly comfortable, I can't stop talking!. I have a strong urge to dominate and control.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I am uncomfortable that the yardstick used to measure 'social skills' is overwhelmingly biased against autistics at - apparently - a ratio of approximately 50:1.

Arguably non-autistics are demonstrably 'socially skilled' in comparison to autistics (however this is to be determined) because the odds are phenomenally staked in their favour.

If non-autistics were surrounded by people whose natural inclination was to strongly avoid face-to-face interaction, it would be this fractional minority who - unable to resist the biological impulses causing them to crave this form of interaction - would behave 'inappropriately' due to their 'natural impairment' and undoubtedly develop behavioural issues to a clinically significant extent.

Their 'social skills' would be very poor indeed in such a situation, illustrating that the notion of 'social skill' is actually imposed according to behaviour within a given environment - so if we've going to judge the social skills of autistics perhaps this should perhaps be taken into consideration?

I wonder too if NTs don't appear to be constantly seeking attention (from an autistic's perspective) because they are engaging in social transactions where attention is sought and received... not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself... yet something which autistics are naturally cut-out off, to their detriment, it appears.

I really hope that this doesn't come across as contentious at all, I'm just very pedantic and find it difficult to come to terms with things such as 'coping skills', 'social skills' or - if it comes to that - 'fitting in' 'getting by' and 'being yourself'. :)

I also actually have a problem with the 'higher-end/lower-end' spectrum notion too... simply because we don't feel the obligation to categorise non-autistics as to how 'functional' they are... well maybe in short-hand like 'slob', 'boffin', 'pleb'  or 'toff'... but at least then it doesn't have a scientific pre-text.

Hope said:

With regard to social skills, I agree that the definition is incredibly blurry, which is why the diagnostic description that people with AS lack social skills is very simplistic and depends on what you mean by a social skill!. As you argue, simply causing no trouble and attempting to fit in, however hard this is, suggests a certain social awareness that many people with higher functioning AS have. This is why AS is a spectrum condition, and so it is not true that all people with AS don't have ANY social skills at all!

People on the higher functioning end of the spectrum can have social skills, but they are learned, not natural.  It's a constant effort to follow a conversation, concentrate on what people are saying, think about what they mean and come up with a suitable response, and extremely tiring. Social awareness comes with a need to interract with society, but this again, is learned and not natural. Most people's knowledge about ADS is limited by what they see in the media, which is in most cases an exaggerated or distorted interpretation of the reality.  Mention "autistic" and everyone thinks "Rainman" so that's why people are surprised when an autistic person seems to be "normal" to them. People at the higher end of the spectrum have often had a hard time, been bullied at school and have learned not to draw attention to themselves, and therefore have a good incentive to develop coping skills. This is especially true of women, it is now fairly well documented that women on the spectrum are better at developing coping skills than their male counterparts, and are more likely to have learned some social skills.  This is why many women aren't diagnosed until later in life.

Hope your description of yourself in your first post is my daughter to the letter. She has learned how to socialise by copying, she is an exceptional actress, she is enrolled in a stage school and the principal and teachers are all astounded by how well she can act for her age, they have all said that she has the acting skills of someone twice her age and why? because she's been acting all of her life.

When my daughter was a toddler she would not look at anybody except myself, her father and her two grandmother's. Then she started pre-school and it took the staff many months to get her to play with the other kids and interact in a typical way. She learnt how to copy the other children from a young age so she can be included. If she's put into an unfamiliar social situation she will watch the other kids carefully, laughing when they do (but a second or two later) she copies every move they make, it's extraordinary to watch. It's been both a good and bad thing for her, it's good because she has always had friends from a young age and is able to cope alot better then I think she would have had she not developed her copying skill. It has it's downside because the medical professionals and her teachers are missing the subtle differences she dispalys socially. So yes she has friends but they don't get to hear almost daily of problems she's had with them, misunderstandings, miscommunications etc and when she just outright does not understand a situation or a joke or whatever.

What I find very isolating about all this roll playing lark.........

NT's (in my veiw) are avid attention seekers. Autistics hate the spotlight. So it's a constant pulling in opposite directions.

Yes that's exactly it I think.

I kind of see it as an issue of fluency, if you're fluent in a language, it seems to mean you're so comfortable with it that you can clearly articulate complex notions and so-on, which are actually a typical element within advancing yourself on a personal level within society, and define your social being in that sense.

If you only have a limited grasp of a language, you're at a distinct advantage in that sense, and vulnerable the way autistics are in a wide range of social situations - it really constitutes a fundamental impairment pervading any number of activities.

What's interesting here I think seems to be that if you follow the model of autistics being naturally different rather than incapable and inferior (and also the wider model of disability being essentially a 'social' issue rather than purely a 'medical' one), you'd imagine that their lack of fluency in communication and socialisation (terms which are actually phenomenally broad) is more or less entirely contextual, and defined by their social environment, rather than resulting from any sort of objective 'deficit' in these qualities - which are the kind of things humanity seems to pretty much pride itself on.

It's becoming a cliche to point out how well non-autistics might manage in a society dominated by about 50 autistics to every non-autistic but until the difficulties and challenges faced by autistics are openly understood and acknowledged, it remains the case, so we can only guess at what autistics as a group are capable of if an environment that was suited to them was established - it seems that all we really know now is that if subjected as a group to a systematic (though doubtless unintended) exclusion, frustration, isolation and prejudice, autistics tend to suffer from mental health issues... hardly surprising really, or something that sets them apart from the population as a whole, given that you might say that they're enduring what amounts to psychological torment.

Incidentally, people seem to rather enjoy the 'role-play' that they're so fluent in and comes so naturally to them it often appears to me... what to me seems like pointlessly overblown emotive melodramatic histronics that serves as nothing more than a distressing waste of energy, spoken about afterwards (once they've calmed down) is often described as this wonderful release of negative emotional energy...

I sometimes feel that some people worry that I don't engage in that sort of thing, and that they'd even like me to do it from their own perspective, kind of like engaging in a loving social 'rough and tumble'... even when it seems to me like a horrible argument full of the nastiest nonsense that they clearly don't literally mean.

It would be presumptuous of me of course to feel a sense of resentment towards a perceived 'blackmailing' into 'being normal' and expressing myself in the accepted, 'healthy' convention - and that's why the weight of the scientific community behind autism can be a real benefit, I know that my brain is different somehow.

But it can be something of a depressing thought for me, to consider that this rather brutish, ineloquent means of emotional expression is simply the way that the world works, and the basic emotional 'currency' that all social transactions are founded upon, from kids in the playground right up to the heads of nation it seems...

But perhaps this is simply bringing to light another issue which will hopefully become more relevant - if autistics continue to be regarded as equal and empowered within society (fingers crossed, eh?) - one of autistics coming to accept non-autistics as being the way they are, naturally, 'warts and all'.

With regard to roles, while most people act out roles a lot of the time, I think that this is more of an effort for most people with AS, and so the disconnect between one's real psyche and one's social self is more pronounced because the ingrained emotional connection is lacking. Instead we often rely on our logic and intellect, meaning that we are often more acutely aware of the contrived nature of our attempt to fit in.

With regard to social skills, I agree that the definition is incredibly blurry, which is why the diagnostic description that people with AS lack social skills is very simplistic and depends on what you mean by a social skill!. As you argue, simply causing no trouble and attempting to fit in, however hard this is, suggests a certain social awareness that many people with higher functioning AS have. This is why AS is a spectrum condition, and so it is not true that all people with AS don't have ANY social skills at all!

With regard to social skills, I agree that the definition is incredibly blurry, which is why the diagnostic description that people with AS lack social skills is very simplistic and depends on what you mean by a social skill!. As you argue, simply causing no trouble and attempting to fit in, however hard this is, suggests a certain social awareness that many people with higher functioning AS have. This is why AS is a spectrum condition, and so it is not true that all people with AS don't have ANY social skills at all!

Yes, this is all very troubling indeed. I thought I'd try to say something.

It seems commonly accepted the notion that there's a difference between being alone and feeling loneliness - that you can be amongst people and still feel alone.

I think in essence, that's a way of saying that our physical being isn't the entirity of our identity, and that as human beings we are defined contextuall - through creating meaningful content, and having those around us relate to it.

It does appear that perhaps this is overwhelming experience for autistics, that they are completely surrounded by people who make them feel more lonely, and that - broadly speaking, currently at-least - there is no escape from it, no matter where they go or what they do.

This would explain the frequent co-morbidities of anxiety, depression and so-on that I regard as kind of 'clustering' around the deep-rooted and virtually all-pervasive sense of alienation and frustration - how much control can you have over your life if you can't relate meaningfully to those in your immediate environment?

That's kind of tangential, but I think what I'm trying to say is - what is a 'social skill'?

Not causing trouble, even if means you don't fit in and feel wretchedly lonely is a social skill, it seems to my mind - either out of respect for others, or because you don't want to attract attention to yourself, or for any other reason.

I think actually, the problems come hand in hand with defining 'social skills' as a symptom of a neurological condition... you could say Adolf Hitler was an individual of exceptional social skill... you could also call him an inhuman, insane sociopath - that's just an extreme of course, but it illustrates something which can occur in endless other manifestations.

To have literally no social skills I guess you would have to no treat or regard human beings as any different from inanimate objects, and defining 'good' and 'bad' social skills is something of an art, rather than a science.

I feel like I am routinely ignored and treated as though I don't exist by the authorities and society in general me... but because it's them who're 'ok' (have jobs, money, houses, friends, family, etc.) I'm supposed to be the one lacking social capability... whereas you could easily say it's them that are callous, devoid of compassion, self-absorbed and uncaring... hardly highly prized social skills.

You could say a social skill facilitates gain - such as paying for something from a shop rather than stealing it (and getting arrested) - but actually, the overwhelming majority of social interaction appears to be less physically 'gain-related' and more about simply relating to those around you.

Given that autistics are by definition neurologically different, it perhaps shouldn't be so surprising that - if most of us are like me - feel as though we stick out like a sore thumb when we attempt to socialise with the vast majority.

Does any of this make sense?

I'd say there's a difference between playing a role and being yourself, but that actually, the line is rather blurry... our sense of self is defined by the roles we perceive ourselves as playing - even if we're not aware of that... it's probably a lot easier for people with 'normal' brains to act out roles without even being aware of it.

I find that people label me as weird. But If I mention the "A" word I couldnt possibly have that and I'm normal mmm. Stuck in a position neither here nor there feeling isolated and wanting away from society simitaniously.

I can completely understand what you are saying Hope. 

Do what thou will, but harm none.

Or, in other words, just be yourself, but try to avoid causing mental, physical, and spiritual harm in others, Hope, and screw what anybody else thinks.

(though, as I type that I realise that I, myself, am actually hopeless at doing the 'screw what others think' part (but I try to do the 'do what thou will, but harm none' part))

Are you actually reading Sartre just now Hope? What you describe sounds like his 'spirit of seriousness' where people believe there is an authenticity waiting to be discovered in things but it is ourselves who are the real arbiters of what is meaningful...to pretend otherwise is what he calls 'bad faith' (I hope I haven't mangled this...) I don't know what I think about all of this. Maybe identity is not stable but always a struggle and maybe the more you struggle with it the worse the struggle gets. You always sounds like someone with a very strong self-awareness and forceful identity...if others are not quite so self-demanding perhaps it makes you feel frustrated. That's how I used to feel anyway...if I socialized more I probably still would feel this way.

They say it is normal in everyone to question their identity and sometimes feel disgusted when they feel their inauthenticity. Normal but the experience can be awful. I would say that Freudian psychoanalysis is an interesting but potentially useless resource. A fine fellow Viennese writer, Karl Kraus, said that pyschoanalysis is the disease for which it pretends to be the cure (or something like that). You don't want to end up like Woody Allen questioning your identity until you're 80!!!

I suppose I would add my voice to those of others who are seeking a better forum for people to contact each other to avoid the loneliness etc. A few people have said this lately. Maybe I'll take the idea to Dragon's Den...or fill the room full of carbon monoxide...it's a difficult choice (just a little joke Mr Moderator...cut it out if it's too provocative).

It would be nice if people could just able to be themselves.....and be accepted......humans