Female with autism feels masculine rather than feminine

I'm so glad to see this thread, I've struggled with this all my life. I was a teenager in the 70s when things were less 'enlightened' than now (although I'm not sure how much has really changed). All through my teens and twenties people constantly told me I was 'denying my femininity' by being 'too analytical' and that I was 'mannish' and too 'hard' or 'cold'. I also found the changes at puberty really difficult and remember asking when I was about 15 to be put on the pill continuously because I'd heard it would suppress periods - the (female) doctor told me women need periods psychologically to feel feminine - I though that I must not be a woman then. I also don't like body hair as some of you have mentioned - people sometime suggest I should transition to a man - yuk! Be hairier? Ughh.

In my teens, I wore make-up and dresses thinking that this might 'disguise' my alleged masculine brain but I found that dressing up as a woman gets you all kinds of unwanted attention so I abandoned that. I came out as gay in my twenties and found yet another really prescriptive environment where you were supposed to conform to one or other gender all over again. I obligingly had a go at adopting a 'butch' lesbian identity but abandoned the project as it was (a) inane and (b) proscriptive. If you failed to conform to one or other gender stereotype consistently people would point it out constantly - and that's inconvenient as sticking to one gender stereotype seems unnecessarily restrictive and requires concentration. Made me think of Emerson - "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". Then came the 80s and lesbians started pushing everyone to conform to some ideological construct of 'natural' femininity and I was constantly told I 'think like a man' so my brain is oppressive to other women (huh? So *I'm* not a woman then?). Not sure if I was supposed to remove my brain, scrub it clean of intellectual tendencies and replace it tidily so I can be a cuddly group-thinker who never challenges anyone? Yuk!

I've finally ended up at the position that my brain is neither male nor female, it's just a brain. I've checked out the science on alleged gender difference and it's really not conclusive at all, there's no consensus and there are scientists on both sides of the debate. I'm working on the assumption that whilst there may be some minor differences in the brain across genders I'm pretty sure that differences between individuals are far greater across a spectrum of behaviour and thinking. Cultural differences in the way boys and girls are raised could account for most, if not all, of it. The autistic brain is something else again and they're just falsely linking autistic characteristics with masculinity because they're lazy and simplistic thinkers. I do think that 'society' is far more sympathetic towards men/boys showing autistic characteristics than women - and that's mainly because culture allows a far wider range of behaviours in men than in women. Women are expected to be less intelligent and more supportive/subservient. We're not supposed to question things, analyse, or have minds of our own.

I was particularly annoyed by a recent study claiming to have definitively proven that women's brains are different from men's and that autistic women are 'masculine'. I'm baffled by people suggesting that one's brain can have a different gender from the rest of one's body - that's some people's experience obviously, but it really isn't mine. My problem is other people hassling me about how inconsistently I perform gender but I don't have an internally experienced contradiction. I don't have the feeling that I'm male 'inside' and female 'outside'. I don't really take that much notice of my 'outside' honestly and my inside doesn't feel like it has gender. It's just me.

I really don't give a crap what I wear as long as it's comfy, and I can't tolerate anything other than soft natural fabrics next to my skin. I find men patronise me less when dressed in clothing associated with masculinity and women criticise me less in clothes associated with femininity so you win some and you lose some. In 'masculine' clothes men regard women as somewhat threatening - I'll settle for that as I hate being talked down to like I'm some ditsy child. When I was a teenager I lived in jeans, t-shirts and tennis shoes (now known as trainers). I wore the 80s gay uniform of black jeans and white t-shirt with a leather jacket in my 30s. I'm a bit old now, jeans catch me across the middle so I mainly wear loose tunics and leggings and soft shoes these days. This means I get patronised by other gay people for failing to look 'gay' enough - although interestingly I must have gained some kind of authority with age as men seem less inclined to patronise me, whatever I wear.

I've concluded that gender is nothing but a hobgoblin of little minds. I do my best to ignore it as far as anyone can with everyone carping all day about my failure to produce a consistent facsimilie of stereotypical 'feminine' behaviour. I'm neither masculine nor feminine, I'm an intelligent and logical person who can read a map, with biological female sexual organs. Get over it! Why are these idiots so obsessed with gender stereotypes? Pfffft!

I totally agree with this. Gender stereotypes have been created and I think a lot less people fit into them than they care to admit but people like to fit in. Yes there will be some differences between male and females due to hormones and there may be some differences between the brains but not to the extent that shows.

There was a really interesting program on tv a year or 2 ago about gender stereotypes. A guy went into a school and showed all the ways they lead girls and boys. They showed the same in shops etc too. It was fascinating and showed that a lot of children choose what is expected rather than what they really like but they think they are choosing what they like.

As a teacher it’s encouraging to see some girls embracing non gender stereotypical roles. I’m hoping for a society that accepts all of us as individuals

Just as you dream of being a girlie girl, i dream of being able to participate better in social settings. Im sure you are accepting of who you are still, even though you dream of this.

When you say about "not accepting it and try learning the art of conversation" why should i not accept it? I cant fundamentally change who i am. I just dream of being able to socialise a bit differently (better?) but know that even with practise i will fall short.

I bet most people wouldnt notice this of me. I think i hide it very well.

I've never heard of asmr. But I hate meditation. It makes me feel really uncomfortable. It definitely doesn't relax or destress me.

I leave it to others how they want to bring up their kids, but I would never align myself with a society that pushes stereotypes at the cost of developing individuality. Just because most of the people in society do it, it still doesn’t mean it has to be your reality. It’s not ‘we’ as a society, if you don’t agree with it. It’s, this is what the society I currently live in, pushes, but I don’t and neither do lots of other people in the society.

I can’t remember saying someone hadn’t understood, but I definitely wouldn’t have been saying someone was wrong. I don’t think that way. 

Yeah, I get tired from social interaction. I’ve started to listen to asmr and guided meditations more often, which are really helping. And one day, I’ll be back to my usual meditation, but the guided ones are helping. 

I particularly like the loving kindness meditations. Do you listen to asmr? 

You said she hadn't understood. Which leads me to believe you thought what she said wasn't right. Therefore wrong.

I meant we as a society not any particular individuals. I just don't think children need guidance in what they should play with or wear. I just think it should be their choice whether they are a boy or a girl. I'm going to leave the stereotype thing there. This conversation has exhausted my brain.

Nobody has said anything about anybody being wrong. I simply experience the world in a different way to most people, so I often require a different explanation of what’s being said, or for it to be said in a different way which I can understand. 

Maybe that’s another comment section where somebody said someone was wrong. Lol! I think it’s all getting a bit muddled up! 

You did say you push stereotypes, you said ‘we’, which I assumed to include you? Maybe I got that bit wrong? I have a tendency to take things literally but maybe you meant to say society then, and said we by mistake. 

Yes, I agree, society does push stereotypes etc, but only for people who need that level of guidance. Some people are happy to do their own thing, but to make it easier for those who don’t want to do their own thing, society gives them a hand, with advertising and news etc. That’s how I see it anyway, because why would people go along with it otherwise?

Or maybe you understood it in a different way to how she did. Doesn't necessarily mean she is wrong. Couldn't comment any further without knowing the topic.

At no point did I say I push stereotypes on children. I said society does. I don't like stereotypes. I already explained all that bit. I'm not going to repeat it all.

I was just going on what you said? You said you push stereotypes on young kids, even though you think it’s not necessary to have such differences between genders. We only have to go back into ancient history, however, to find out why we definitely do need gender differences. One, because we are different, and two, we have been shown what happens when the gender roles break down. 

Damn. Story of my life! Lol! That’s exactly what that minister woman said to me last week at church. She said she didn’t know how else to explain it ‍♀️~ I researched it myself after the service, and it seems that she’s either not understood what her church is about or she’s just kind of learning, which is a little strange seeing as she’s been ordained a minister, or whatever they have to do to be one. 

I understand how society works, and how it can be understood through stereotypes etc. I’ve studied sociology and still do, it’s one of my favourite subjects. I find it interesting to learn why people do things, such as, why do some conform to societal norms, even when they are openly saying they don’t agree with it,  and why others don’t and why some do and they’re perfectly happy with it. They’re my favourite kinds of people. I love them. I think it would be so nice to live that way. I think they’re the lucky ones :) 

Women by stereotype are generally expected to be very chatty etc. Men may still be sociable but there isn't the same expectation of them.

In the family and social atmosphere that I grew up in, it was the opposite to this. Women were supposed to shut up and look after the family and the men had all the fun, going out drinking etc. 

I guess it all depends on our backgrounds. But this changes between each of our local areas as well. It’s all coming back to me now. And the gypsy woman have another expectation. The women from one area for example, are different from the women in another area. Because I don’t fit into any, I’ve been able to infiltrate them all! Lol! Honestly. I don’t know how I got away with it, thinking about it, because they were all quite fierce about their little identities. And I loved the Asian women’s thing the best, they had the most fun

This isn't what I mean. I've tried to explain. I don't know how else I could word it.

My sister in law is the same. She’s so gorgeous and always looks beautiful and would never step outside without her heels and lippy  ~ I dream of being her in a little girly kind of dreamy way. I love girly girls, probably because I’ve never been one

Oh yeah. I love those women who faught for the vote. Yes, I’ve studied them and they were courageous women indeed. I often give thanks to them and remember them in my thoughts and I try to learn from them. 

Yes, if you’re getting involved with all that, I salute you. I thought we were just talking! Lol! I think everyone’s my friend and every exchange of words is just a conversation, lol, without remembering most people haven’t got a clue what I’m even talking about! 

I do understand what you’re talking about now. I studied all of that at uni etc and I still go back to it. I just thought we were taking on a personal level. But if you don’t like stereotypes, why don’t you change the way you see the world? You don’t have to see it through that one prism, there are many more views from which to experience the world. 

I still don’t know why you have to push stereotypes on young children from a young age though, just because others do? I don’t and lots and lots of people I know, don’t. Which proves it’s not compulsory. Many of my friends home school their children and they’re not pushing gender roles on them. There are many families on YouTube living this way as well. So I suppose, I’m being fed the total opposite of what people who watch tv etc are being fed and of course, most of my friends also live like me, according to their joy, needs etc. 

Just because the majority of people choose to live their lives in a similar fashion, doesn’t mean we all have to and not all of us do. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being immersed in your society, I think it’s great and has many benefits, it’s just that it’s not my way, mainly due to the nature of my autism. And there are millions of people who, for whatever reason, are choosing to experience life in a so called ‘alternative’ ways. Maybe because I’ve never confirmed, I meet these people? 

I suppose I just don’t pay attention to all that stuff. I’m happy living my little life and I have enough interests to keep me interested for the rest of my life, so I don’t have to turn to society for support in that way. And I think the fact that I don’t wear make up, is the least weird thing about me! Lol! Maybe that’s another good thing about being a total weirdo, lol ~ people don’t judge you by the same society expectations that they judge each other by. 

People ask me questions, such as, why do you always wear wellies etc, or don’t wear makeup etc, and I lve that! Being a typical aspie I’m all me, me, me, so I see it as an opportunity to talk about me! lol! Maybe they’re trying to say something else, I don’t know, I’m just delighted I’m talking about me  

I guess I’ve always been different, way before I even knew it, so I’ve never known any different and people really don’t judge me through stereotypes etc, even though they do with each other. So maybe because I don’t judge others that way, because I’m not even able to because I don’t know what the expectations are ~ I just thought women wore make up because they wanted to, because it made them feel pretty or something, lol ~ because I don’t have that judgement system going on in me, others don’t use it against me! I don’t know. Or maybe I’m just completely ignorant to the fact that somebody is trying to get me to do something just because others are. I usually point out to people to not even try that stuff on me, from the very beginning, at things like job centre. So I guess I tell people up front as well that I’m different and I’m not even sure it’s possible for somebody to get me to do something I didn’t want to do. We were talking about this in my wellbeing session. I said in truth, I don’t know if anybody could have ever got me to do something I didn’t want to do, unless they tricked me of course. Which they did! Lol! 

I think this is now futile. Im going out un the garden to enjoy the sunshine. I just need to find my heels and lippy first

How do you think women got things like the vote? It was by challenging society. Yes society has come a long way since those times but it doesn't change the fact that they are seen in a certain way. Whether people want to conform or not is their own choice. My point with stereotypes is that we push them on children from a young age. It seems unnecessary to me to have such differences between gender.

I'm not sure you will see the point we are trying to make. You just don't see the world that way.

out_of_step said:

And before you ask yes i am accepting of myself in these situations but naturally i wpuld lile to patriciapte more and i often feel misundetstood in how i come across). 

If you were accepting yourself in those situations, it’s simply not possible to want anything different, such as, wanting to participate more or not wanting to be misunderstood in how you come across. 

By the very act of accepting yourself, you immediately rule out wanting anything that you don’t have. For example, the gift of the art of conversation. 

What you’re saying is, or what it sounds like to me, is that  I don’t like this situation but I feel like there is little I can do about it, so I will put up with it. 

Wouldn’t it be better to not accept it? Then you will do something about it, for example, you would learn the art of conversation. I don’t bother. I can talk to people but I prefer my own company most of the time and when I do talk, I only really talk about my special interest, whatever that happens to be in that moment. I don’t get involved in what I call chit chat conversation as that doesn’t interest me. So not only do I not watch tv etc, but I also don’t get involved in what others are talking about! Lol! It’s talk about my favourite topic or leave me alone. And people do. 

It was their lot back then, wasn’t it? Referring to the housewives thing. Times have changed significantly since then in terms of commercialism etc and women couldn’t even have bank accounts in their own names back then. It was a very different world. Women have different lives now and more opportunities to get involved in different things. 

Guns are part of society but it doesn’t mean we all have to get one. There are lots of things that are part of society but it doesn’t mean we have to go along with all of them. I guess that’s just my take on it and I know a lot of people get a lot of comfort and satisfaction with going along with the norm, so I’ve never seen anything wrong with that. And if women stopped challenging the amazing women from the 50’s and got on with their own life, in the here and now, surely they’d have more success in life? 

Look at the emojis you have just used! A girl in a puple top. A pink female symbol. You cant get away from it even on emojis. You probably dont realise it going off your very detailed response as all these things pass you by. But these little symbols still contribute!!

There is nothing wrong with you not seeing stereotypes and expectations. I wish I didn't. I think you (or I) are confusing expectations with rules. When I say expectation I just meant that is generally what is done. The majority of women wear make up so they would assume that other women would too. No one has ever told me that I have to. But they often find it strange that I don't. Some people are more open minded than others. I wouldn't say I get all the social expectation stuff. But I get some of it. I just don't do it because I don't like it.

There is nothing wrong with you not seeing stereotypes and expectations. I wish I didn't. I think you (or I) are confusing expectations with rules. When I say expectation I just meant that is generally what is done. The majority of women wear make up so they would assume that other women would too. No one has ever told me that I have to. But they often find it strange that I don't. Some people are more open minded than others. I wouldn't say I get all the social expectation stuff. But I get some of it. I just don't do it because I don't like it.

I suppose I just don’t pay attention to all that stuff. I’m happy living my little life and I have enough interests to keep me interested for the rest of my life, so I don’t have to turn to society for support in that way. And I think the fact that I don’t wear make up, is the least weird thing about me! Lol! Maybe that’s another good thing about being a total weirdo, lol ~ people don’t judge you by the same society expectations that they judge each other by. 

People ask me questions, such as, why do you always wear wellies etc, or don’t wear makeup etc, and I lve that! Being a typical aspie I’m all me, me, me, so I see it as an opportunity to talk about me! lol! Maybe they’re trying to say something else, I don’t know, I’m just delighted I’m talking about me  

I guess I’ve always been different, way before I even knew it, so I’ve never known any different and people really don’t judge me through stereotypes etc, even though they do with each other. So maybe because I don’t judge others that way, because I’m not even able to because I don’t know what the expectations are ~ I just thought women wore make up because they wanted to, because it made them feel pretty or something, lol ~ because I don’t have that judgement system going on in me, others don’t use it against me! I don’t know. Or maybe I’m just completely ignorant to the fact that somebody is trying to get me to do something just because others are. I usually point out to people to not even try that stuff on me, from the very beginning, at things like job centre. So I guess I tell people up front as well that I’m different and I’m not even sure it’s possible for somebody to get me to do something I didn’t want to do. We were talking about this in my wellbeing session. I said in truth, I don’t know if anybody could have ever got me to do something I didn’t want to do, unless they tricked me of course. Which they did! Lol!