Undiagnosed autism

What are your husband's goals?

If he has no independence and is treated like a child if he makes a mistake, what is he supposed to do to feel valuable?

I totally understand the Aspie need to have everything controllable and predictable, so how do you deal with your children's unpredictability?

You are right about me treating him like a child and I agree I need help to stop that. If we hadn't had a child I would have left long ago but really I suspect the problem is that we didn't have effective counselling sooner.

My children have been a huge challenge and I am not a natural parent but I have never been their main carer. Of course they are hugely rewarding and I am relieved to find that they all seem pretty stable.

As you're so driven in your business and in control of everything, do you think you are able to accept people around you as equals or do you need them to be under control too? Kids are controllable to some extent but adults have their own, valid ideas of what is right or wrong.

Bringing up kids is a 20+ year big diversion from looking at the way you do things - so I have to ask - can you be bothered with having people close to you or do they invade into your rigid world too much? Are you able to allow a certain amount of behavioural variability and unpredictablity that close to yourself?

I've been married 28 years - I'm very Aspergers, my wife is very NT. We both have strengths and weaknesses - I do all the technical, low emotion stuff working towards our long-term plans - she does the immediate stuff and the emotional interaction stuff - like dealing with people (I'm hopeless with telephone conversations and very poor at dealing with people who could be manipulating me).

We've managed to bring up a perfectly well balanced child.

Our end game is to be able to retire & downsize where neither of us has to work - ASAP- so we can both do the things that interest us in a lower stress environment.

Or Legoland-where they have special training because of the hordes of Aspies descending on the model village!

Yes re Theresa but I do think that her woodeness and inflexibility is due to AS. So really we are being plunged into chaos because of her concrete thinking.(Sorry probably not supposed to get political)

NAS50581 said:

I accidentally kissed a male friend on the lips and that led to an excruciatingly embarassing pass at me.

Awkward.....I've managed to avoid that so far.

NAS50581 said:

Star Wars- I hadn't even realised that was an Aspie thing.

Take a trip to any ComicCon - it's like a NAS convention. A bit like the Model Engineering Show at Alexandra Palace.

I think she's actually a robot. There's nothing human about her.

And BTW has anyone noticed that Theresa May is one of us!

I know WTF did we become French?! I do exactly the same thing by way of desperately avoiding the hugs and kisses but if I do get hugged I get it completely wrong and men think I am coming onto them. I accidentally kissed a male friend on the lips and that led to an excruciatingly embarassing pass at me. Strangely my husband is really good at the social kissing thing which is probably the main reason I didn't spot his Aspie nature. 

Star Wars- I hadn't even realised that was an Aspie thing. My son became totally obsessed from about 7 years old and was so devastated when Disney took over that he went into a decline. 'George Lucas has betrayed us...' Before that it was Dr. Who. Of course they are aspie- The sequences, the complexity. Why did I not spot these things!?

Oh naaasty. I am O.k with handshakes in a professional situation and that is good as I regularly shake hands with the most unsavoury people. But in a social situation it is much more tricky.

I hate all the social hugging & random kissing - other people seem good at it and instinctively know what to do - I don't like being hugged by people I hardly know. And the kissing - yes, no, one cheek or both?

And now they seem to be trying to import the concept of man-hugging. Errrr, no. Too complicated.

In social settings, I sit on the far side of the table so people turning up are all hugged-out before they get to me - a smile and wave from a distance is acceptable then.

When I get overloaded in social events, I've perfected the 'paying attention' mode so women seem to think of me as a good listener of all their problems. NT men of my age seem to be a sad bunch of desperate males vying for their attention, so my 'nice' non-threatening mask seems a very attractive alternative for the single women.

In reality, I've shut down because of the noise and over-stimulus - the lights are on but I'm replaying Star Wars in my head while redesigning the kitchen while thinking about going on holiday.

My wife says it's hilarious watching them flirt with me - I just don't spot it so I seem to be a nice-guy challenge for them.

I wouldn't do social kissing.  I've lost friends over an in-ability to do social hugging correctly, hand shakes should be firm but not hand-crushing.  Make sure you carry wet-wipes for the situations where you get a "drip" handshake and feel physically violated from it.

Well I am glad you think so!  I have started to lose confidence in my ability to tell when he is being unreasonable.Yes that made me laugh about the phonecall. I am just the same but it is a strength too. People find my directness refreshing in the legal world where frequently people don't use one word where 10 would do! I am brief to a fault and cannot stand all the padding people go in for. I am very bad at hiding my boredom and irritation however.

Strangely I am pretty emotionally literate and I generally read non-verbal stuff well -I think Aspie women are often different to men there. Of course that comes from years of people watching in an attempt to mirror which often fails miserably.

One thing I would love to know : How do other Aspies deal with the nightmare of social kissing, hugging and even shaking hands. I honestly dread social occasions because of it and inevitably have to have several drinks before I leave the house just to cope with it, I am trying not to drink this year though but that is the one thing that might tip me back off the wagon!

When kids are small, they are data vacuums - learning to read, learning to draw etc. - when they get to about 7, they develop sophisticated emotions and test them on people during conversation - I don't really recognise emotions so there was a communication mis-match - so I got frustrated and she got upset with daddy.

Internally, i'm still 16 so I have to work very hard at pretending to be a grown up - as time goes on, NTs get more worldly - especially women (men get simpler) - so it takes an immense amount of my brain processing not to look too gauche.

It's very hard work and it gets harder with age.

I'm terrible on the phone - too many things to juggle in my head - mistakes will happen.

My phonecalls to my daughter last on average 7 seconds - she calls - I answer - she needs picking up - I say ok, see you in a few minutes - end.

It's easier to communicate via e-mail - you can include pictures too

.

The finances divided by 3 is a very teenage thing to say and a very simplisitic way of looking at responsibilities.

I have now told him that I think he has AS but he felt quite threatened and criticised so I haven't pursued it but he did say he would discuss it with our counselor if it came up so I intend to make sure it does come up! He is hypersensitive to criticism anyway and is likely to find it very challenging if the counselor tries to point out that he may bear some responsibility for our problems. 

In any event I am finding this very cathartic -although I feel a little guilty talking behind his back!

You say you had problems when your daughter started growing up. Can I ask what you found difficult? I find 1:1 conversation really difficult with anyone ( but I am absolutely fine in groups.) I therefore find being alone with one of my children (and to some extent my husband) really quite difficult and now my daughter is at uni I am starting to dread the weekly phonecall as I am rubbish on the phone anyway and can't think of anything to say.

I never noticed this inability to be with someone 1:1 when I was younger and also I used to talk to my friends on the phone for hours. I wonder whether AS symptoms tend to get worse as you get older?

Yes! Just the realisation of his AS makes me feel so much more tolerant and compassionate. e.g a recent annoying thing was his asking to work 4 days a week instead of 5 to pursue other interests (not financially beneficial) When I argued that this was unfair as I work 6 and sometimes 7 day weeks he pointed out that he only has 1/3 of responsibility for our family outgoings as only one of the three children is his! This annoyed/upset me deeply at the time but now I can see that it is a typically Aspie attitude. 

Do your children know about your diagnosis and do they recognise it in your husband? As soon as I realised I has AS I told my children and they think it is funny (but not in a nasty way) It helps to explain the odd things I do like jumping around / hand flapping if I forget that I am not alone! 

He sounds very AS - I was lucky - I'm a twin so I had a functioning version to copy (and measure) 24/7 so I learnt to 'fit in'. In my measuring of NTs, I spotted how half-azzed most of their actions are so from an early age I noticed I was different so I took steps to mask myself and appear 'normal'. This worked very well until our daughter was growing up.

Can you not be blunt with him and say he seems to have all the hallmarks of AS and the problems you are having are not difficult to solve - with honesty and communication and openness to come up with a workable plan to go forward?

Then maybe explain what AS behaviours are typical and not too helpful to a relationship. Trying to get a dialogue going with him may be tricky if he doesn't understand his deficiencies.

Blaming the autism not each other is a good idea. I feel much greater compassion towards my husband when I realise (just like me) he really struggles with certain things, he is not being awkward! 

Yes I totally get the irritation with incompetence! I am a lawyer and now run my own practice largely because I couldn't take direction from people that I didn't respect  As the boss I struggle against irritation with incompetence but must have managed this pretty well as all my staff stay for years! I think insight into AS is key to prevent it wrecking your life .I now remember that during our riotous Sunday lunches when all the kids were at home my husband used to sit silently and appear to be sulking. When I asked about this he said that we were talking about people he didn't know and why would he want to join in with that?  At the time this was further evidence to me of his miserable ungiving nature .Now his mystification seems really sad 

I think the dividing up tasks between you is a great idea. Less so for us as we are both AS and he doesn't accept it but we should try to play to our strengths.

A friend's wife (a teacher) just mentioned that a lot of my behaviours seemed very AS - so I ended up being diagnosed - I have zero emotional thoughts about it - it was more of 'well that explains as few things'.

It was useful to know because then I could then understand why I had difficulties with our daughter. My wife & I decided to split the responsibilities - I do all the low-emotion stuff with her - taxi, fixer of things, problem solver, teacher/sage etc. - my wife does all the emotional stuff - listening to her problems, knowing about her life, her friends, all the other parents etc.

It also explained why I had difficulties working with others when their capabilities and performance fell below what was expected from the job. Their blatant incompetence began to annoy me.

I worked in a place with huge production pressures and with a performance bonus system - their incompetence could cost me money so I began to do all I could to make sure the bonus triggered every month. Unfortunately, the slackers got used to me 'making it happen' so things got worse.

The management was terrible so I became ill from all the stress. (the pay was very good and my health meant I couldn't change job).

I'm now 10 years on now and the scientist in me has analysed myself to death.  I'd say I pretty much understand why I do everything I do. I understand how I work. I know my limitations and I know my strengths. I'm completely ok with it all - it's not ideal, but I think my strengths massively outweigh the weaknesses.

Spot On! He doesn't reconise it at all and feels that I am 100% responsible for all the problems in our marriage. (He literally said that) I am glad you say that his behaviour sounds AS as whilst I was typing I was wondering if it sounded more ADHD. I remember some years ago I heard an item about a couple with communication difficuties who discovered that this stemmed from them both having undiagnosed AS. At the time it crossed my mind and I asked him to take the AQ test. I got 35 (which is high) and he got 17. So I wrote it off as an idea. However I just completed it on his behalf and got 35 too. You need a bit of self -knowledge for that test I think!

His clinging to multiple jobs does seem to stem from fear of failure but then he has so much to cope with he inevitably fails anyway. When he was lecturing it would take him so long to mark essays he was always late with them as he had overburdened himself.

Did you resist your diagnosis at first? What changed your mind?

So it sounds like he's REALLY very AS but is so AS he can't spot it.

I got diagnosed at 42 because my mask couldn't adapt fast enough to keep up with our growing daughter. Before that I had no clue - the thought had never occured to me.

I worked in high-tech so it wasn't so much of a problem but I would imagine it's a real issue in other careers.

Is his refusal to let go of a job stemming from his fear of failure - needing another option immediately to hand if things go wrong?.

All good and interesting questions!

So he has always tended to take on multiple part time jobs whilst he was also supposed to be the main carer for our son. He then couldn't cope with any of it but wasn't earning enough for me to drop some hours in order to step in. This culminated in him taking on a job requiring him to spend one day a week abroad. This would have been fine but he refused to quit his other two part time jobs leading to him literally not having time to sleep. On one occasion we had a massive row when I tried to take the car keys from him as he hadn't slept for 48 hours and was about to drive 100 miles or so to teach a class. Then he began a business venture which simply could never have succeeded and he threw stacks of money which we didn't have at it.All this left me working exceptionally long hours and doing all the housework. And it is not just me that thinks his plans are unrealistic as many people have commented on this. (It stems from his slightly grandiose nature.) Finally he decided to try and qualify as a teacher even though he is utterly unsuited for this (he was already teaching at degree level) I told him I thought he would find it difficult but was discounted as being 'unsupportive'. He started working full time as a trainee teacher (but still refused to give up his other part time job) He lasted half a term and then refused to go back as he found it so stressful.

Sadly his failures have diminished him in my eyes as he is so unrealistic and refuses to take any advice. I think you are 100% right that he feels jealous of me and emasculated.It is not exactly that I would rather he didn;t try but just that I would rather he would develop some common sense first:!

My older children (from a previous relationship) tolerate him- he used to refuse to speak to them but has got better at this. The youngest does see him as a good Dad which he is, to be fair.

I know it doesn't sound like it but I love him and we do have fun -well we used to anyway. I think we have become entrenched in mutual suspicion and hostility!

When you say irrational - what does that mean? Irrational to you or generally irrational to everyone else too?  In my experience, AS men are quite realistic in what is possible and practical so why do you think his plans fail?

Do his 'failures' diminish him in your eyes? Would you prefer him not to try rather than fail?

Does he try to match your success? Does he feel immasculated because of your ability to succeed?

How do you think your kids view him? Do they see a good dad or a failure of a man?

When you say irrational - what does that mean? Irrational to you or generally irrational to everyone else too?  In my experience, AS men are quite realistic in what is possible and practical so why do you think his plans fail?

Do his 'failures' diminish him in your eyes? Would you prefer him not to try rather than fail?

Does he try to match your success? Does he feel immasculated because of your ability to succeed?

How do you think your kids view him? Do they see a good dad or a failure of a man?

Yes, press the reset button whilst I am there.  He has a funny sense of humour.  I wonder if I could get one made online? lol

NAS50673 said:

Next time, I will have to just have to say and factor a little book in

Haynes manual - based on complete strip-down and rebuild :-D.

Ahh yes, that is true. I want this to work, or I will never leave to live with him. total relocation!

Start with your handbook first - to give a clue of how to do it - a blueprint if you like - and what he might include if he did one of his own for you.

The picture made me laugh.  So true.   How would it work if I asked him to to the same I wonder.   That would help  me too. find a compromise.  

He will be very grateful to have the inside track on making you happy. Just let him know it's to help him to remove stress from the relationship.

Yes, that would be a great idea.  I will try that when the focus is on me and he is concerned that he isnt paying me enough attention.  I should stop brushing it off.  I do because he looks pained.  Next time, I will have to just have to say and factor a little book in.  Thanks.  

Chats run the risk of turning into arguements and you can also miss out or forget important parts - or fail to get the real meaning across without hurting his feelings.

A well thought out written 'handbook' for maintaining you will make things so much simpler for him.

We dont email, he has no idea how I am feeling, so I wouldnt want to shock him lol  But yes, that would be a good idea for when we hit a rough patch, as relationships always have to.. He knows me as a person, my habits and calls me sensitive, but doesn't get to the point where he gets my needs.  So that will help.  I am rubbish at stating them though, so It's when I have and it's ignored that is foreign to me. 

Yeah, we have chats about what we like about eachother.. he follows my suit and adds some endearing ones, but just doesnt say it any other time.  Have to prompt and yes, it would be mcd or an ice cream. LOL   It is all very helpful, thank you.    His son is mid diagnosis at the moment,  so I have been tempted to say, do you not see traits in yourself.. he really doesnt own up to it, or oblivious.  But oblivious and indifferent is how it comes across.  

Yes, you are, less ruminating for sure! 

Why not write him an e-mail outlining all the things you would like so he's got a solid copy that he can refer to and work from - give him a clue - if he doesn't pick up on the cues and feelings then he cannot change.

Include all the things like flowers occasionally, trips out for meals - give him a short list of places you like so he doesn't surprise you with McD. Let him know what you like about him - keep it all very positive so he thinks he'll be icing the cake rather than a list of gripes.

You might need to be very specific about your likes so he can feel he's on solid ground with you. The more vague you are, the more unsure he will be so he'll worry and won't know what to do to make things better. Confusion will cause problems.

Men are MUCH simpler than women think.

I agree, I am so easy going, that I feel I have facilitating things, but as there a log of things going on behind the scenes, it seems, when he has a crisis, I am there to listen (being very empathetic) but it's not returned, its rationalised. LOL   I have prompted him a bit this week and he did not compute, but apologised if things made me feel a certain way.   I understand that he just doesnt get some things.

He does worry that the fact that he cannot juggle things means I get the raw end of the deal and that he tucks me away to cope with the distance.  I asked him not to.  I dont think that is easily changed though.  He hates routine changes that I make as well, throws him off. 

If I am fretting about our relationship, he thinks that a "dont worry" will solve it.  And he works on timelines too.. just a few things he let slip about our relationship.  We can talk about things when he feels insecure I think, then he asks questions and we have a good chat, then it's parked.  

He is amazing, I love his quirks.. I just sometimes need more and its purely because it's not coming natural to him or on his radar. 

Could be - it may be that your responses give him the impression he's doing all the right things - so why would he change? You might need to prompt him with what he could do to make you happier - he may never think of it himself.

Add in a long distance relationship and a life long condition too.  everything seems to be scheduled and I have to work around him. I have raised it by being direct, it is very much, two steps forward and one back.    I think I need to get some counselling or advice, and this is how I have arrived here with you lot, hoping to gain some understanding.  I am a total empath, so I am up the other end of the scale.  He does show extremes of emotion, and they are so endearing.  We have never argued, I sort of understand him.  My son and brother definitely have traits too.  I sort of feel that our initial courting phase was scripted now as he seems to have lost the ability to woo. I get the same texts morning and night, still scripted.   He is really affectionate and loving when we are together though. Is it enough, who knows, but he has no idea, or if he does then he isn't telling me.   I miss going out, he doesn't like social situations and he has a very small circle of friends.  So intelligent too.   

Does he sound on the spectrum peeps?  I would be grateful for any ideas on how to get him to open up a bit...  or you can tell me to just to accept?  Thanks.

Do you think a diagnosis will wake him up enough to realise what he's doing? Will he curl up into a ball and go downhill or will there be a realisation of his impact upon everyone around him?

I was doing military, space hardware, nuclear and radio-pharmaceuticals - so many lovely specifications & standards to adhere to.

Where would we be if there were no rules? France.

Where would we be if there were too many rules? Gremany.

Yes and of course it is great as a lawyer- all the rule based stuff and it being a virtue to inflexibly cling to being RIGHT!

How do you manage phonecalls and being alone with your children / grandchildren? 

Oh I can totally relate to this and I would sound a note of caution. I made allowances too and for years I thought we were soul mates and I could tolerate the difficult behaviour. 15 years in fact - always thinking he would change but not realising that he absolutely couldn't. In the end it is my husband who has become so furious with my constant criticism that he has said our marriage is over ( although we are hoping it can be saved with counselling) He takes no responsibility for his conduct and never has .It is exhausting and the loved up feeling only lasts so long so if I were starting out I would suggest counselling at a much earlier stage .Sorry to be gloomy. It is difficult ( but not impossible) to be happy when you know that your feelings are not important to your life partner.

My children both live with partners now - they are 31 and 29. I love seeing them but it is all too rare these days as we have such busy lives.

My son is here for the weekend getting respite from his 3 year old daughter who is at stage of asking multiple why questions!

Both my children are probably autistic - my son wants to get assessed but my daughter doesn't. She has an autism friendly lifestyle and no significant problems. My son, like me, is an overthinker, tremendously work focused, and often exhausted. 

By getting a diagnosis much earlier than I did I hope my son will have an easier path through life. I've had an incredibly interesting time, but it has sometimes been a struggle to survive. 

I had to clear my husband out of our tiny kitchen yesterday - he was lurking while I tried to ice a cake. Just at the most inconvenient time he decided to come in and make a coffee. 

I'm very aware that I am exacting to live with. I sometimes think it would be better for my husband if I worked away during the week and just came home at weekends. 

NAS50581 said:

of course, the Aspie part of me needs to be right about this so I would find it difficult not to pursue it.

Aaah - the old 'must convert unknowns into facts' behaviour so typical of us all. Unknown = stress.

NAS50581 said:

Personally I find the Aspie thing is an asset

Me too - it has given me abilities so far ahead of NTs. My eidetic memory was a real boon in the jobs I've done.

I really don't think I would be satisfied being normal.