Executive (dys)function

I'm the same tha'ts why I'm always checking this forum. I don't think it's ASC related - it's how the internet and phones have changed our brains.

It's like gambling. Sometimes you win. You get that dopamine hit.Sometimes you lose. You just don't know what it will be. Sometimes there are new notifications or messages on here, sometimes there aren't. Same principle.

Time limit! Getting out of bed! Yes I struggle with that. On my days off or if I am going in later, I don't get up till I need to. Perhaps I should start setting myself mini time limits for things.

I work in education too. It's the only job in education of this nature i've ever had. I found it very stressful at the beginning and wasn't sure if it was just how it was run, or if it was me. Now I am used to it as have been there several years. At the start it seemed that the changes didn't make sense. This was one of the reasons I struggled because they didn't seem like rational decisions for the managers to have made. Now I understand why. I've taught myself to anticipate these changes each year. For the past 2 years I have been doing exactly the same timetable so haven't had problems. However last week I started in a new centre on one day.  I know this centre but I have never taught in. The staff were different but my students were the same. I felt sick before class last week and this week. I was trying to weigh up why I still felt like this even in my second week. I couldn't come to a conclusion. It all passed once I got there.  I have noticed how I feel strange around the centre staff but not around my students (who have little command of the English language).

I struggle with this too. Although I suspect I have ADHD and dyspraxia, which is probably why. I find it hard even to sit and watch a film. Always getting up and walking around. But I do think that executive function can be improved through practice. Many predominant neurotype people also have poor gratification postponement. They can't put their phones down for longer than 1 min. 

Windscale said:

You should be good at this

I've been told that rather a lot of times in my life by people who were very mistaken!

Seriously, though, I do appreciate the advice, it is good advice, and those things do help me to an extent. However, part of my frustration with my EF is that although I have felt for a long time that those things ought to work, I have tried repeatedly to put them into practice and I have even been trained quite formally in some of them for work related project management, yet they're just not enough to overcome the problems with awareness, attention, and volition. This is particularly true during periods of burn-out, when I don't have the self control to prevent my autistic traits from bubbling up to the surface.

What I think I really need, is some kind of support worker who could help me to establish those things as "auto-pilots" in their own right - they need enforcing until they become a habit. Whenever I try them, even the process of introducing them becomes something that I can procrastinate about indefinitely. The procrastinating is my planning, gone completely rampant, whether I do it in my mind, on paper, or using a computer program. I can always find every little tiny ambiguity that prevents me coming to a concrete decision, no matter how small the problem. My Mum was right when I was a kid, I do need bossing about sometimes; without the prompts, things just seem to drop out of my working memory, and the hyper-focus and inattention mean that I can sabotage my own plans at almost any moment without being aware that I'm doing it. I also find that I have to re-learn skills all the time because I lose them very quickly if I'm not using them; I make the same dumb mistakes over and over again even though my intellectual mind knows that they're dysfunctional.

For example, a post-it on my computer screen would seem a wise way to get myself to remember something; but at the precise moment that I go to turn on the computer, my brain just says "something in the way" and I stick it on top of all the other post-it notes littering my desk without even noticing that I'm doing it (I was asked why I bothered with the notes at work once - they're usually illegible anyway!) If the landlady calls me downstairs while I'm in the middle of writing a post, I'll come back upstairs with no memory that this was what I was previously doing, and absent mindedly turn the computer off and start playing my bass, getting lost in hyper-focus for hours. I might then even believe that I did send the e-mail and played bass as my reward, and be confused why the post I knew I had written isn't there (deducing what I did wrong is all part of the fun!) There really is only so much of the day that you can spend second-guessing and checking up on yourself (which then recursively become more tasks that I have to remember to do!)

Just making a cup of tea can take me hours by the time I've put the kettle on a few times and let it go cold, left my mug behind on the way to the kettle (again), got distracted because I got back to my desk and forgot that I was going there to retrieve the mug, waited around for a kettle to boil that I didn't even switch on, got distracted petting the cat and then stared into space for a bit cogitating about something that happened twenty years ago, noticed a magazine that I meant to put away on the way back to the kettle and ended up reading half of it because my hyperlexia decided to kick in, had to go back to the kettle because I forgot to put sugar in the tea, then left the tea by the kettle when I've gone back to the computer, forgotten entirely that I wanted a cup of tea in the first place, and choked on the cold tea I just drank from the other cup of tea I made earlier and forgot was already there.

That isn't a compilation of my life-times worst tea related ***-ups, that could easily be the story of a single cup. If these are just the "brain farts" that other people get, then my brain is a perpetual whoopee cushion! Honestly, if I set a video camera up in my little "man-cave" it would be funnier than Laurel and Hardy (I'm good at the slapstick stuff as well - my poor co-ordination can be a riot!) It's OK to laugh at me - I often do; it's the only thing that keeps me (relatively) sane!

I don't know if I'm getting this across at all well, it has always been by far the hardest aspect of my autism to explain to anyone, including myself. If the talk of "attention" makes anyone think of AD(H)D, then I suspect they might be onto something. I was supposed to have seen an occupational therapist following my autism assessment, specifically to look into my EF, but unfortunately their ever growing waiting list for autism assessments meant that it never happened. I notice a lot of commonality when I speak to people diagnosed with AD(H)D, specifically the purely-inattentive version, and it is a very common co-morbid with autism; IIRC, at one time you couldn't be diagnosed with both, because autism was assumed to include the same EF effects. I really ought to get around to procrastinating about whether or not I'll think about doing something about that!

[Ha ha! For some reason writing this post (and, of course, editing it for, um, dunno, but it's getting light out, so I guess a long time) has reminded me that I've left my laundry in the machine all night again!]

And apologies to the OP for rambling on your thread!

You should be good at this :-).

For anything that needs to be done split it into small pieces and identify the "must haves", and the "nice to haves".   If necessary split each thing down so that each piece of it seems of a manageable size.  Make a realistic estimate, based on time constraints, of have much you can complete in the time available.  Make sure as many as possible of the must haves get done.  Prioritise your list of "nice to haves" and try and fit in as many of the nice to haves as you feel able.  If you're running out of time, sacrifice nice-to-haves to make sure the must-haves get done.

Make sure to write things down - it takes stress away from your mind knowing that you don't have to remember things.  Also, try and plan when you'll do bits, but leave some flexibility and slack so that the plan itself doesn't become a thing of stress.

The more you do it, the more you should find that this gets easier and you can manage more things with less stress.  Also your estimates of how much you can do in a time period improve so you end up with more predictable outcomes.

When things don't work out to plan, reflect on why that was, and how you could improve your process in the future to try and not have the same thing happen again in the future.  Also be aware that for things that are really important to you, you can "sprint" for a short amount of time and get more done that you would normally.  But try and reserve "sprinting" for really important things and use it infrequently.

) ( said:

hope I am not freaking you out!

Not at all, it's always wonderful to find a kindred spirit! I've been a regular on three different forums for about four years now, and it's really incredible how these synchronicities turn up. It's great to be able to talk about them at last after years of filing them away under "never talk about this again" because of the blank stares they usually get!

Oddly enough, I find playing musical instruments is rather like the "auto-pilot" I described earlier. I found it much easier once I was playing in punk bands and not being self-conscious about the "rules" of music. Even after 30 years, I always have to learn a riff or song by just playing it until I get the muscle memory; as soon as I have to think about what I'm doing with my fingers, it all goes to pot. In fact, since I gave up playing in bands, the main reason that I still play is that it's a quick route to the kind of hyper-focus that lets me leave the stressful world behind.

I often think that people struggle learning instruments because they take it too seriously, and trying to learn the theory interferes with gaining the dexterity. I always came up with my best stuff when I was just messing around, and learned most of my bass playing techniques by discovering them by accident. After all, you don't "use" or "work" a musical instrument - you "play" it!

I'm a few years too young to be your twin (1970 baby), but since we both seem to live in a bubble of warped space-time, who knows! (())

Hey twin,,, hope I am not freaking you out!

I was born in 1962 I think I was on my own when born Lol.

 It is quite reassuring to hear your stories, it means I am not unique in the many things I feel or do.

Just been replying to your replies in the jukebox thread, wow, I cannot play any instruments, I learnt enough to play happy birthday on an acoustic guitar, but soon forgot the chords( dyslexia, memory) I tried to play a brass instrument, joined a brass band school, was doing ok, learning to read music, skipped home after the first night, so happy , full of myself having written down musical notes and understood them, sadly the club stalled, a mixture of the main man falling ill and no real cover for him, it just shut down, I was heart broken, I have instruments a plenty, I collected as many as I could, cheap unloved ones, a sad reminder of if only. When I say many , I could start my own band, seriously,,, every kind possible, isn’t it sad, I would love  to hear them all play again. 

I'm sorry to hear about that, ((Lonewarrior)). I understand just what you mean; like I said earlier, folks notice it when it's them that are expecting something of us, but no-one ever recognises how soul-crushing it is when it constantly interferes with things that we've set our hearts on. You've described perfectly how one little moment of procrastination leads to that sickening domino effect where the farce just gets worse and worse the harder you try to get back on track. As you say, it is so easy for it to lead to that "why bother even trying?" feeling.

The tying your legs in knots and giving yourself dead limbs is exactly like me, too. I'm starting to feel the repercussions of all the years I've spent hunched over a computer (I started over 30 years ago), but I know that, short of tying me to the chair, I have no control over how I'm sat at all - if I think to sit up straight, it'll only last until I get hyper-focused again. When I used to play drums, a session would quite often end when I'd accidentally punch myself in the face because I had no idea that I'd slouched almost until my nose was inches away from the snare drum (trying to pass my arms through each other as if my hands aren't connected to my body is another favourite trick!)

Oh my word Trogluddite you pretty much just down loaded my mind!

Especially the part about doing something you really really want to do, 

Strange as it seems the part about total inability to recognise the passing of time really rang bells with me, once I get going I just keep going, I don’t stop to eat, drink, often I will find my legs double  folded, locked tight together and twisted, it is only after several hours I realise and then the pain of untwisting them really hurts, When truly focused I dismiss any discomfort, only much much later I feel the cramp or maybe my whole arm has gone numb through leaning on it, I can spend hours researching something to suddenly realise my mouth is totally dry, my whole body aching as soon as I stop focusing, I sit glued to a monitor my body just gets forgotten about. 

I had read on here before about lack of executive function. 

Take today, I was determined to get up early, I did that, get dressed and sort out all the things I needed, I did that, prepared a few hot drinks, did that, then plan where I needed to go,, all sorted, but I kept checking the clock, going over everything I needed, checking the clock again. Thinking “ it’s ok I still have time left” . So everything ready, time is approaching to get going! Oh better just check again just exactly where the memorial is? This then suddenly makes me think “ where will I park? There will be hundreds turning up for the memorial ! I have left it to late, better get going fast, drive fast, got held up, clock ticking away fast, time running out now, oh no, no parking spaces left anywhere, I have messed up,, should have left a lot earlier, why didn’t I move quicker?

 Got really upset, drove  around getting more upset. Finally gave up trying, sat in my car away from the venue crying, I messed up big time.

 My own fault, no one to blame. Later I returned hoping to watch the various groups march through the town. I couldn’t find a spot where I could see, too many people, I was being pushed about, not in a nasty way, just so many people. I can’t just push my way to the front, that’s impolite, finally I walked away, kept walking having failed again. Then I had no idea where to go, did I need anything? Decided to visit charity shops, most had closed, When I did go in I realised I didn’t really want anything specific, so why go in? 

Drove home feeling useless, no idea why I bothered, I so desperately wanted to do this, it was a special thing I wanted so much to be part of. Yes I am rambling, I need to unload all this, sorry for going on so much, but your words struck  a deep chord with me, 

thank you trog. ()

Before my autism diagnosis, my executive dysfunction was often one of the most frightening things in my life; it seriously led me to question the nature of free will and whether I was losing my mind, because of the disconnect between what I intend to do and what I actually end up doing. I'm grateful that the psychologist at my autism assessment spent quite a while explaining the concepts to me, otherwise I might still be feeling that somehow my mind isn't always my own to do what I want with. The lack of agency that it's left me feeling has been a huge factor in my depressive episodes, I'm absolutely sure. It's bad enough having to swim against the current in the outside world all the time, never mind inside my own brain.

There's no decision large or small that I can't manage to procrastinate about for any arbitrary length of time. Then, if and when I finally get to the end of that, it doesn't matter whether I know how to do what I want, have the resources for it, have done it before successfully, and really, really want to do it; I just can't guarantee that I will, and definitely not within any given time frame. I then look back, completely mystified as how how it didn't happen, often with little idea at all how I filled the time. Of course, onlookers only ever notice this happening when it's something that they want me to do, and love to imagine that I must be doing it on purpose, or just because I'm lazy.

I'm pretty sure that this is where a lot of my repetitive routines and habits come from. They're not obsessions or rituals, as many people seem to think, they're "auto-pilots"; sub-conscious routines that my brain has taken up so that it doesn't have to run the risk of getting my screwed up executive functions involved. I can often perform these without applying any conscious attention at all, and often don't even remember doing them; "oh, I've come back from the shop with exactly the same things that I always buy, how did that happen?" In fact, trying to take "manual control" when I'm running on "auto-pilot" is usually disastrous; the surest way of messing something up that I'd otherwise do completely effortlessly.

Task switching completely does my head in. I've had so many problems in jobs in the past because the boss has interrupted me from something I'm immersed in, and my brain hasn't switched into "conversation mode" fast enough to pick up a word that's been said. My "conversation auto-pilot" can even parrot a nice, chirpy agreement to something without me having the faintest idea what was agreed, or even that I spoke. "Was the boss just at my desk, or am I just remembering something from yesterday? last week? six months ago?"

My sense of the passage of time is absolutely atrocious. I very often have no idea whether I've been doing something for a few minutes or a few hours, lose track of what day of the week it is, or even find myself thinking it's a completely different season of the year just because of how the air feels. If I'm hyper-focused on something, even more so; in which case, I also won't notice my hunger, thirst, temperature, where my limbs are, or otherwise very obvious external stimuli.

"Away with the faeries", as my gran always used to say.

I can manage the general routine or getting dressed etc. It's getting started that's the problem because it takes me so long to get out of bed. The weekends are more difficult because if I don't have a time limit, it doesn't really happen. If I don't need to go out at the weekend, I don't tend to bother getting dressed. I can also spend a hell of a long time in bed watching films, reading etc.

There are also lots of jobs that get put off for a long time or just never end up being done. I think I need time constraints for everything.

I work in a school. There have been lots of changes to the timetable so far this year which stresses me out. Most of them haven't been to my own timetable but it puts me on edge as I worry about my own changing. I find the end of the year very difficult anticipating what the changes will be etc. I got quite upset last year.

Did they turn up unexpectedly? I like having guests arranged in advance altho i still get bouts of nervousness.

I prefer if my partner is here when we have guests as he can drive the social aspect better. If its a very good friend i feel ok but still get nervous. 

Can you elaborate on not meeting their expectations?

Totally identify. Just had a house of guest today, and the same next week. I find it depressing that I continually don’t meet their expectations and there is a gulf. They want to reach out, I want to shrink inward

I think im just after comments rather than advice. What you have said is very helpful as it validates my own thoughts and experiences.

One of the aspecrs i read about re ASC and exec.func. is about daily routines getting dressed etc which i dont really have problem with. In work i think im generally ok having said that ive just realised as my classes, classrooms and centres change each year it seemingly takes me longer to adapt or i mind the changes more than my colleagues.

I dont know much about executive function but I can really relate to this. Infact I think I could have written it. I'm the worst at getting tasks done. If there was an award for procrastination I would win it. The same with getting out of bed. Like you say it's not laziness, it's something else I can't explain.

Again I can't deal with being interrupted during a task and I think I can be very abrupt with people if they try to interrupt me. I can't multitask full stop!

I totally get what you are saying about the situation with your mum and dad. I often have a plan in my head and if something different happens then it really throws me. It makes me feel the same way as if something changes.

I wish I could give you some advice but I have no idea. I think I need to do some reading up on executive function.