Miswired Women of the Net!

Oh yes, the cutting off bit .... or those times when you think you've been doing OK at conversation, then a third person comes to join in and within about 5 mins they and your original conversation partner are nattering away  like they have known each other for years, and you are standing around like a spare part. I have walked away from conversations like that and I honestly think no-one noticed when I left!

The trouble with the selfish friend scenario when it's a family member is that you are supposed to maintain contact with family members, even if you have absolutely nothing in common with them. I find that quite tedious, and have done the same as you, reached a point where I decide it's their turn to come to me and I will just wait until they do (or don't as the case may be!). My mum complains that I don't just call her up for a chat. Leaving aside that I have a pathological loathing of telephones, which she knows, it just wouldn't occur to me to call someone if I didn't have something specific to say. 

I totally agree with what you said about the one-sided relationship being unhealthy whether you are NT or ND .... but I see so many people putting up with it, I wondered if this is normal. And if I just give up on things too easily.

I too can relate to that.  So glad you brought this up.

Like the other comments I have always found it easier to talk to men than women.  I have also found myself in situations when I suddenly realised that there was a different expectation from the male.  I thought I was just chatting with them.  They thought they were chatting me up and it would end in sex.  Fortunately I extricated myself from these situations but they did seem confused as to what had changed.

For most of my adult life I have wondered how other women have got their 'best friends' as I struggle to think of any female that has come close to that.  At school there were three of us who called ourselves 'the outcasts' because we had drifted together having found that we didn't really fit in with anyone else.  They remain friends that I may not see for years at a time but we would still suddenly write a letter to each other without any reproach for not having been in touch for so long.  But when I see how other best friends behave I wouldn't say that those relationships are the same.

I find that generally other women don't understand me and I don't understand them.  I find their conversations incredibly dull.  So I nod and smile and I am polite.  Then when I try to talk about something that interests me they cut me off and ensure the conversation either ends or drifts back to something they wanted to talk about.  When I realised that I was trying to engage with people but only on their terms I decided to stop trying so hard.

I have a family member who is similar to the friend you mentioned above.  She would always expect me to call, me to go to her, me to do things that she was interested in.  I tried suggesting things that I was interested in but that I thought were sufficiently broad that she may give it a go.  But no.  So one day I decided to just stop calling, stop visiting, etc until she instigated some contact.  That was about ten years ago and we haven't done anything together since then as I'm still waiting for her to call!!!  As she's a family member I do see her at family occasions but absolutely nothing where it's just the two of us any more.  I think friendship should include an element of shared interests and some scope for compromising.  The compromising should be on both sides though so that there is give and take.  If a relationship is just one person compromising every time then I don't think it's a very healthy relationship whether you are NT or ND.  Why anyone would find that acceptable for a long period of time I cannot answer either (as you rightly suggest).

Yes, love your comment that you have realised you are not rubbish at pretending to be a woman, just rubbish at pretending to be an NT woman and it's a relief.  Yes yes yes!!!

Yeah, I can relate to all that 

I doubt it Ellie - let's face it, neither of us has to pretend to be an ND woman, so we can just be ..... ourselves. Unlikely to feel like a fraud or screw it up if we're just being ourselves are we :)

moggsy said:

The realisation that I am not rubbish at pretending to be a woman, just rubbish at pretending to be an NT woman, was a bit of a relief really!

Very true...a good point well done!! Let's hope I'm not bad as a ND Woman! - lol

Interesting, the only 'friends' I have from work are geeky (I do work in tech), possibly undiagnosed autistic types, so I can see where  you're coming from with your love of the support group. It is simply nicer to be around people who accept you as you are. The geeky types tend to know that others find them a bit weird, so they are not about to starting saying others are weird! 

NT women make me uncomfortable. I have always felt like I am faking it, and that they know somehow. They can always tell I am not the same as them, by some magical 6th sense. So I guess they kind of make me feel second rate too, for not being able to do what they do (or how they do it at least).

For years (before I knew I had Asperger's) I always said that I didn't know how to be a proper girl, and felt like a fish out of water if forced to mix with proper girls. I never understood why I felt that way, because I didn't feel like I was born in the wrong body and I am not gay. I have friends who are (both) and what they described about how they felt growing up was so close to how I felt .... but the reasons clearly weren't the same. It was a big light-bulb moment when I realised that I was simply trying to copy 'NT' and chose 'NT woman' as my model, because I am a woman. The realisation that I am not rubbish at pretending to be a woman, just rubbish at pretending to be an NT woman, was a bit of a relief really!

Hi moggsy, I have never found female friends easy and have hung out with guys most of my life. Even now, I go to a sauna night sometimes at the gym, they have ladies sessions, men’s sessions and mixed sessions. The mixed night is basically men, and me. I tried the women’s night a few times, made some ‘friends’ with some of the other regulars, but it was so painful and torturous, that I don’t even go now. I stick to the mixed aka men’s nights. I hold my hands up where friendships are concerned, I can’t do them and neither do I particularly want to any more. However, I do have a couple of female friends, they’re both undiagnosed autistic, and they both come from my ‘old’ life, from years ago, and it’s ok, I see them sometimes and I’m working on developing more of a friendship with them, whatever that means! It’s getting tricky with male friends now, as they all seem to want some kind of relationship with me, so I’m not gonna deal with that, unless I met someone I wanted to have a relationship with. Instead, I’m going to meet people through activities I like, such as an art group I recently joined and I’ll keep the ‘friendship’ confined to the group. The best thing I have ever done is join a local autistic Support Group. Here, for the first time ever, I feel at home, and already I feel like I’m developing true friendships, which is kind of weird, but I love it there. It doesn’t matter if they’re male or female, young or old or whatever their likes or interests are, I just like being around them and we all get on, in our own way. We can be ourselves and there’s no judgement. It’s so freeing, all those hidden rules are not there, that NT’s seem to know, and I’m really enjoying it. They make me feel normal, whereas, nt women especially, make me feel like a second rate citizen. Not because they treat me that way, but because I don’t understand them, particularly with my black and white thinking. 

I made a ‘friend’ with my neighbour. Now I can’t stand going over there, I feel like it’s eating into my ‘me’ time!  I guess I’m just not very good at friendships unless I’m getting something specific out of it. That’s not to say I’m not friendly, I am, but friendships seem like too much effort for little or no reward. I am cultivating some level of connection, with my son’s in laws, which is good, but I like my own space or I’d rather be around people who like discussing what I like to talk about or do things I like to do. Even that’s limited, as I like to do most things by myself! Lol! 

Dear Moggsy

what a great reply and a very honest one.  Like you, I find it easier to make friendships (or at least acquaint and interact) with men rather than women.  Like you I find them more straightforward (Lone...that is not meant in a derogatory way)...but I have always been more male-brain/tom boy and my special interest is Tech.  I am not a pink and pretty woman....more a black and white, sleeves rolled up and get on with things kind of women.

I don't really get women but at primary school my two and only friends were both girls....maybe it all changes when puberty kicks in.?..and the gossip, the make up....the other NT stuff that heads are filled with...when your own head doesn't mean that it is filled with ND stuff.

There are women on this forum that I admire and feel close to - emotionally empathetic, intellectually stimulated by, care for, and identify with..Maybe the mix of ND to ND works better than Female NT to Female ND....   - be interested to know what the men on the forum think.

The challenge I have on top of this is my OH doesn't like me conversing with men...though working in the tech sector means that 90% of my work colleagues are male...but then he is judging things in a sexual / framework the predatory NT fear factor way...which frustrates me no end...as again with my ND self on.....i am just not wired that way!!!

Arrrgh! - as they say!!

the friendship rulebook like you say is a challenge and has many hoops and obstacles...and like relationships the emotional worth we attribute to them means that gaining them and possibly losing them becomes an emotional big deal..

A really good topic to raise....now I bet to get on with work....this was just a quick lunchtime check...but you drew me in!! lol

Ellie (42, and 3/4)

Hi fellow mis-wired women .... I wanted to ask you a question. Do any of you have any female friends? I have always found it far harder to deal with women than men. Men tend to say what they mean far more than women do, so they are easier to figure out. Women seem to have a lot of hidden meanings, little tricks and in-jokes going on, some of it probably designed to exclude, especially when young. So in short, I have never been able to figure out how to do it.

The thing that is bugging me since my diagnosis is that I have been forced to accept that while I at least thought I could do 'making friends' with guys, I haven't actually ever managed it at all, in my entire life (now 46). What I was able to learn how to do is seduce men, which is far easier to understand and learn the rules for than making friends with NTs will ever be, but clearly not the same thing! This is why the few people who I think of as my friends are all ex-lovers from way back. They were people who I spent long enough together with to form a connection, which endures to this day. It is probably also why there is a trail of break-ups behind me, instigated by me. I met guys who I found interesting and nice and fun and wanted to be friends with, but I had no idea how to do that, so I took the easy way out and became more than friends with them. I now feel like a bit of a s*&t because they were all good, nice guys, who often didn't understand why it didn't work out and what they did wrong. And yes, I do feel bad about that. Probably 3/4 of them should have been friends, not lovers, but I didn't / don't know how to achieve that.

I am not sure I understand NT friendship either. I have been involved in 'friendships' with other couples, instigated by my ex-husband. In one case, we travelled an hour each way to visit them, almost weekly. They pretty much never made the effort to come to our place. My hubby didn't seem to be particularly bothered by this. If I had been navigating that one without his guidance, I might have driven to see them a few times, then would have waited for them to call me and/or visit me. If they never did, I would have assumed they weren't that interested in being friends with me. To my black and white Aspie brain, no effort = no interest. Is putting up with this kind of thing normal in NT friendships, I wonder? (rhetorical question - I'm sure you can no more answer that than I can). My sister, who has loads of friends, seems to put up with quite a lot from them at times, including at times the sort of behaviour that would make me have nothing more to do with someone. 

Anyway, I am not asking this because I want to be able to make friends. Luckily I am very happy with the ones I have got, because after my post-diagnosis introspection I doubt I could make any new ones if I tried. I am just curious to know if any of you find NT women easier going than I do, and whether anyone identifies with the any of the above.

Where have my friends gone? Nite nite all.it is late, sleep well, I hope you all sleep well and wake up and have a good start of a nice day ().

It nice that they trusted me to tell me, they must have sensed something in me? I trusted them too,

I told them I was Aspergers,the reply I got was “that’s ok I have a few good friends who are also autistic, we chatted like we had a common understanding, 

it was a free conversation with no hang ups or awkwardness,a common trust.

I feel chatty tonite,Lol.

lots to catch up on. 

It could be a long night?

I feel a long rambling thread lurking,,,,

Haven’t decided what the subject matter is yet?

probably something on my mind,

oh nite nite missy,take care.x().

Good night Missy x

It is nice when you get that connection!

One of The people told me they were ADHD and dyslexic, my kind of person, 

x

Sorry to be party pooper but have to sleep now. So good to see you Ellie and Lw. Xxx

That sounds good.. makes a huge difference to connect with like minded folk. I’ve been preoccupied too with on going situations. But like you been reading some of the conversations. 

It would be warmer than Scotland and without midges but we might get sucked into a black hole 

Seems not ellie! Haven’t been on for quite some time,

I see you have all been getting to know each other, that’s really good, we all need to share our experiences in life, the struggles,the pitfalls,how each of us try to cope, it is good to be part of a common understanding, 

Hi missy good to see you too, I have been a bit tied up of late,not literally folks, lots learnt,lots to tell, I have been lucky to meet some interesting eyes wide open people.my kind of people, I won’t be to specific as there trust in me shall be respected, just really nice alternative people, my mates Lol.

xxx()()()xxx

That’s where we all go is it?! 

So Bermuda is a no no then....with that NAS triangle and all!

Hi Ellie,I wouldn’t try to hard!

seems we are destined to never find it.

I keep looking but my trust is often misguided,

so how is everyone, I am ok.still chugging along Lol

The site crashed just now.the triangle of doom appeared?