Self neglect

Hi Jenny...

i'm going try try to answer with the caveat  that I'm currently a bit drunk and I haven't read any of the other replies, so take it for what you will.

I go through periods of self destruction and self neglect. I have to remind myself to wash and brush my teeth etc. And I am a perfectly functional amd 'successful' human being. I will only shower when I have to go to work, or when I start feeling uncomfortable or itchy/stinky. I can go for days or weeks without it bothering me personally, because I don't notice. When I finally can smell myself. which is probably too late, I get around to doing something about it.

Only going to work gives me the impulse to not be a stinky mess. I simply don't think about these things and I don't notice, until I notice.

I have a skin condition, made worse by lack of washing and shaving, and even that doesn't always motivate me to keep control of it.  But I become annoyed, irritable etc when it gets out of control. It gets worse when I'm feeling down or unmotivated, which makes me down and more unmotivated.

I can better control and organise these things when I have a better sense of personal interests and motivation, when I can become more than my own interests, when I can externalise myself. It's difficult to explain. But I think it's about finding a spark. an interest and excitement outside of oneself, some kind of external motivation.

This can be quite sporadic, and is not externally motivated. It comes from within, but needs some form of external impetus.

Or some pride in oneself, whatever that might mean.

That probably doesn't help in any way whatsoever. But it's about finding a spark to engage with the external world.

Thanks Exist.  That is interesting and is very much in line with what I'm thinking about motivation and finding the spark inside.  It sounds as though you have much more of these than my son, though, who is unable to work (total "hikikomori" state) and too reclusive even to engage with the DWP.

I think this also highlights what might be the crux of the matter.  The family sees the situation from the outside in, so can look for signs of any nascent interests or motivation and work with those (NB not in any pushy way but simply supporting) but it is the intrinsic motivation which matters and if we don't see any signs then we are clueless. 

It honestly looks as though he's seen a little of the adult world, taken fright and taken flight.  So there's a danger of anything coming from the outside being perceived as pressure or a demand to conform that he's unable to meet.  I don't know how to handle this, moving as we do within a culture which often seems to value a person's working ability above all else - he's a bright lad, he knows what people think and this, I think, makes him want to avoid them even more.  

If the balance could be altered and shift in favour of interests he wanted to pursue, it'd look very different.  As it stands he only seems to have an interest in protecting himself from the world and distracting himself from all the issues by gaming - i.e. negative "away from" activities rather than positive "move towards" interests.   

Ah, interesting.

Motivation can be difficult to find at times. One thing I forgot to mention was scheduling. I don't personally like routine and structure, too restrictive and repetitive, but if I don't have certain things structured I just won't do them.

For example, I brush my teeth as soon as I get up and at about 9:30 at night. If I don't do it at those times I'll simply forget, or I won't be in the mood and I'll get distracted. Similarly, I prefer to shower in the afternoon or between 11:30am - 1:30 pm. If I don't do it then, I won't be in the mood. Of course, this doesn't fit with a regular 9-5.

I have prefered schedules and routines in my mind, but they don't always fit with regular daily/weekly schedules. My time perception is more elastic.

Maybe small/subtle routines could be implemented for some of the simple things so they become second nature and he doesn't have to think about them.

I'm not really into gaming, but I do spend a lot of time consuming edutainment and educational material on Youtube etc.

Is there a possibility for hinting at some online courses, online opportunities etc. eg programming, computer sciences? Really anything that can take an interest and expand it into the real world a little, without having to physically engage with the real world. Broadening his horizons from his computer, with the hope that it might eventually build a desire to explore the world around him more.

I suppose one of the most difficult things is that people cannot be forced to be motivated or interested.

Another possibility if the outside world and people are too much to cope with is to try to go for quiet walks in areas where it is quiet and people are few.

Being in the countryside or woodland has often been shown to have positive impact on wellbeing. If he can get out, but to areas that are unthreatening, maybe an interest/confidence to interact more might grow.

Thank you Turtle.  Much appreciated. 

It isn't the perfectly content that will make any meaningful change.

I'm always here for support  if you need me.  

So true.  And actually echoes what others, like my tai chi teacher, have also said to me.  My energies are mainly held in and around my head apparently.  Plus those that are in my body are mainly in the right side.  I sort of feel as though I don't fully inhabit my body, especially the left side.  I need to drop back down into myself because it's not healthy.   I actually do this sometimes in a chi kung standing meditation which is a bit like an intensive body scanning technique but works with a kind of "internal dissolving" of any knotty bits or discomfort.  

And the wit's end experience is really a repeating pattern not just within my own life, but very familiar from my upbringing too, especially when dad ran into major issues and, there again, it was pointless reaching out because nobody understood and it was all handled on an intellectual level ("What on earth can we do?  Where can we turn?  This feels shameful.  We have to hide it! etc etc).  I think this is a cultural thing too, mind, as well as very strong within me and mine.  After all, there can always be the feeling that the right answer is out there somewhere, in the next book or the next professional.  But if I'm stuck in that mode then it's clearly not serving me very well plus I'm living on the never never.

Hard to feel safe and secure in my own body.  With chronic progressive kidney and liver disease, it seems as though it's working against me.  But then maybe just being fully in my body will help me live more comfortably with what I've got.   

This is very close to home for me and my own family. I just want to let you know you are not alone here Jenny. We are going through much of the same. 

Firstly, I wanted to share with you one of the fundamental lessons from trauma I learned in my ' understanding phase ' of what trauma actually is and does and that is ; that for many people, your own personal trauma/s plays out over and over again throughout life.

Some of us are not even aware of this pattern repeating itself until much later in life, until it becomes painful, until it needs addressing. Some of us may carry on supressing this by all manor of behaviours including self-medicating but just like trying to push a beach ball under water, it always pops up waiting to be acknowledged and addressed. Hence the title of the book ' The Body Keeps the Score '.

For example, my main trauma occurred when I was just a toddler and continued for a number of years. I had to go back and re-visit how this made me feel at the time ( best done through therapy ) and that is how I found my repeating pattern of behaviour and reoccurring feelings. As a toddler, I had no escape and so the pattern was a combination of fear, overwhelm, frustration, helplessness, hopelessness, meltdown and shutdowns, in other words, for a toddler, a form of torture thus throughout life my main theme or response was escape. 

Self-medicating, addictions, hedonism, risky behaviours, stimulation are all very common life patterns of the traumatised. 

I would suggest you are at your wit's end because you have been living most of your life by your wit's alone and possibly because you have never felt comfortable in your own skin. This is the result of too much mind. Trying to solve everything by the intellect. 

I would say, drop everything and begin your healing process, not of the pursuit of knowledge for the sake of it but for true understanding of yourself and your debilitating patterns and how to feel safe and secure in your own body.  It's only then you can understand anyone else's trauma.

Thanks Turtle.  It's a very long journey here and some of it started over 20 years ago when I was diagnosed with a late onset progressive disease.  So the aspects like yoga, tai chi (the chi kung meditation and exercises really helped), diet (which I needed to consider to spare my ailing kidneys), mindfulness, visualisation and various other therapies have been underway for a long time, although it's good to be reminded because patterns that are even older still tend to re-emerge from time to time and can be quite sabotaging.

And, no, there's no super-therapist around either.  I find myself wondering whether I've become habituated to referring to "experts" and searching for external answers when really the expert on me is me.  

Overall I think it's the desperation that keep rising within me as nothing changes that leaves me casting about like a fish being reeled in no matter what I do.  Within therapy, I often find that the therapist leaves long pauses for me to reflect, but that my response to this is to feel irritated and disappointed because nothing really bubbles up, they can see this and I've explained about it already, yet still they sit and wait.  I might have hidden depths, it's true, but even during my more reflective, comtemplative phases, I find peace but no change.  Then find even that peace is lost when I am confronted with the sight of my son almost running away to escape from me when I only wanted to say hello and have some kind of relationship, however small.  

I might just need to hang in for longer and stop casting about.  I might still be reeled in but maybe I'll eventually notice something that is of some comfort.  I just don't know.  On a purely intellectual level it's easy to say that I'm at my wit's end.  But they layers beneath are probably more important and might set me on a more authentic course.         

Thanks Turtle.  It's a very long journey here and some of it started over 20 years ago when I was diagnosed with a late onset progressive disease.  So the aspects like yoga, tai chi (the chi kung meditation and exercises really helped), diet (which I needed to consider to spare my ailing kidneys), mindfulness, visualisation and various other therapies have been underway for a long time, although it's good to be reminded because patterns that are even older still tend to re-emerge from time to time and can be quite sabotaging.

And, no, there's no super-therapist around either.  I find myself wondering whether I've become habituated to referring to "experts" and searching for external answers when really the expert on me is me.  

Overall I think it's the desperation that keep rising within me as nothing changes that leaves me casting about like a fish being reeled in no matter what I do.  Within therapy, I often find that the therapist leaves long pauses for me to reflect, but that my response to this is to feel irritated and disappointed because nothing really bubbles up, they can see this and I've explained about it already, yet still they sit and wait.  I might have hidden depths, it's true, but even during my more reflective, comtemplative phases, I find peace but no change.  Then find even that peace is lost when I am confronted with the sight of my son almost running away to escape from me when I only wanted to say hello and have some kind of relationship, however small.  

I might just need to hang in for longer and stop casting about.  I might still be reeled in but maybe I'll eventually notice something that is of some comfort.  I just don't know.  On a purely intellectual level it's easy to say that I'm at my wit's end.  But they layers beneath are probably more important and might set me on a more authentic course.         

Thank you Turtle.  Much appreciated. 

It isn't the perfectly content that will make any meaningful change.

I'm always here for support  if you need me.  

So true.  And actually echoes what others, like my tai chi teacher, have also said to me.  My energies are mainly held in and around my head apparently.  Plus those that are in my body are mainly in the right side.  I sort of feel as though I don't fully inhabit my body, especially the left side.  I need to drop back down into myself because it's not healthy.   I actually do this sometimes in a chi kung standing meditation which is a bit like an intensive body scanning technique but works with a kind of "internal dissolving" of any knotty bits or discomfort.  

And the wit's end experience is really a repeating pattern not just within my own life, but very familiar from my upbringing too, especially when dad ran into major issues and, there again, it was pointless reaching out because nobody understood and it was all handled on an intellectual level ("What on earth can we do?  Where can we turn?  This feels shameful.  We have to hide it! etc etc).  I think this is a cultural thing too, mind, as well as very strong within me and mine.  After all, there can always be the feeling that the right answer is out there somewhere, in the next book or the next professional.  But if I'm stuck in that mode then it's clearly not serving me very well plus I'm living on the never never.

Hard to feel safe and secure in my own body.  With chronic progressive kidney and liver disease, it seems as though it's working against me.  But then maybe just being fully in my body will help me live more comfortably with what I've got.   

This is very close to home for me and my own family. I just want to let you know you are not alone here Jenny. We are going through much of the same. 

Firstly, I wanted to share with you one of the fundamental lessons from trauma I learned in my ' understanding phase ' of what trauma actually is and does and that is ; that for many people, your own personal trauma/s plays out over and over again throughout life.

Some of us are not even aware of this pattern repeating itself until much later in life, until it becomes painful, until it needs addressing. Some of us may carry on supressing this by all manor of behaviours including self-medicating but just like trying to push a beach ball under water, it always pops up waiting to be acknowledged and addressed. Hence the title of the book ' The Body Keeps the Score '.

For example, my main trauma occurred when I was just a toddler and continued for a number of years. I had to go back and re-visit how this made me feel at the time ( best done through therapy ) and that is how I found my repeating pattern of behaviour and reoccurring feelings. As a toddler, I had no escape and so the pattern was a combination of fear, overwhelm, frustration, helplessness, hopelessness, meltdown and shutdowns, in other words, for a toddler, a form of torture thus throughout life my main theme or response was escape. 

Self-medicating, addictions, hedonism, risky behaviours, stimulation are all very common life patterns of the traumatised. 

I would suggest you are at your wit's end because you have been living most of your life by your wit's alone and possibly because you have never felt comfortable in your own skin. This is the result of too much mind. Trying to solve everything by the intellect. 

I would say, drop everything and begin your healing process, not of the pursuit of knowledge for the sake of it but for true understanding of yourself and your debilitating patterns and how to feel safe and secure in your own body.  It's only then you can understand anyone else's trauma.