Isolated NT in a relationship with chosen ASC person

Nick said:

like using the word considerate instead of respectful

Reading that part was a bit much for me. There's traits, triggers, and things you have to adapt to in a relationship with someone on the spectrum. I'm on the spectrum myself, but that just sounds like a nightmare. Bordering on abusive control. I can understand a lot of stuff, but that just sounds too much. I'm not going to defend something like that just because he shares the same condition as me.

Nick said:

I have questioned everything I do for so long, I wonder if he’d be happier on his own.

The question here is would you? Sounds like you will bend over backwards, and you are putting in all the effort and getting even more flak for doing so.

It's fine being NT, it's fine being autistic, it's not fine being a controlling abusive ***.

Except we don't know at all the context and what the difference between those two words could represent to  the autistic partner.

I could see how 'considerate' could be used by some hate groups in a patronising autism disparaging way, so it becomes loaded with discrimination, which cannot have any place in a relationship.

If the couple tried one of those counsellors that are informed by discriminatory model of the relationship promoted by autism hate groups, than any reference to it and any language associated with it would just be a red flag that totally undermines the trust and the safety of the relationship. It is clear from the OP is that both partners are distressed, the autistic partner is feeling very 'sensitised', i.e. allergic to something. If they used some of those groups, the first thing is to unlearn that and detoxify the relationship.

Except we don't know at all the context and what the difference between those two words could represent to  the autistic partner.

I could see how 'considerate' could be used by some hate groups in a patronising autism disparaging way, so it becomes loaded with discrimination, which cannot have any place in a relationship.

If the couple tried one of those counsellors that are informed by discriminatory model of the relationship promoted by autism hate groups, than any reference to it and any language associated with it would just be a red flag that totally undermines the trust and the safety of the relationship. It is clear from the OP is that both partners are distressed, the autistic partner is feeling very 'sensitised', i.e. allergic to something. If they used some of those groups, the first thing is to unlearn that and detoxify the relationship.

Tinyexplorer said:

Cloudy, we don't need to argue, we are not opponents, not hate figures.

We don't need to argue, or agree for that matter, we aren't opponents, and contrary to your previous aspersions I'm far from "defensive about hate groups". That was a cheap shot, and baseless.

Tinyexplorer said:

We are all wearing the scars of the past which can be triggering.

Being misrepresented just because someone doesn't agree with what you are saying is irksome, and underhanded. I wouldn't call calling you out on that "being triggered". I'd call it a reasonable response to false representation, not an overreaction that can be reframed by calling it "being triggered". It's there in black and white so people can see it for what it is.

Tinyexplorer said:

Let's make piece.

There wasn't any conflict there, as I said I don't appreciate being tarred with a brush, by someone who knows very little about me. 

Let's move forward then.

Tinyexplorer said:

I love the mountains in your profile, which artist is that?

Mi Youren. It's called Cloudy Mountains. Hence the name.

Tinyexplorer said:

I am really touched by what you wrote, that colours have sounds.

I have Synaesthesia as part and parcel of my ASC, so they literally do. There is some overlap between the two conditions, it's far more prevelant in people on the spectrum.

Tinyexplorer said:

Is it why you like they grayscale landscapes, they are not overstimulating?

No, I just like that painting in particular. It's unusual for a painting of that era to have much background on it due to the ethos of the movement.

Tinyexplorer said:

I love Chinese and Japanese landscape art.

I like the train of thought that some of the Taoist paintings convey. There are portraits where the subject is miniscule, and the landscape dominates.

Cloudy, we don't need to argue, we are not opponents, not hate figures. We are all wearing the scars of the past which can be triggering. Let's make piece.

I love the mountains in your profile, which artist is that?

I am really touched by what you wrote, that colours have sounds. My mother was like that, I didn't inherit that. Is it why you like they grayscale landscapes, they are not overstimulating? I love Chinese and Japanese landscape art.

Yes! This is what we have been working to do. I have not seen it explained by the 'double empathy problem'. It's very interesting and will be reading more. It sums us up really, we really want to be there for one another but don't always seem to be hearing what the other means. Like there's a flter distortion between us. When it happens over and over, as Cloud7's partner, I need a cuddle and kind words. And at the same time, my partner needs silence and no stimulation. It upsets both of us.

I do think I meant that I was experiencing disrespect towards my boundries when I said the 'consideration of my feelings' comment. I was being told off for trying to do something for myself whilst in high levels of pain, and passing out. Whist I'm being told I'm wrong rather than being validated, it does feel as though I'm being kicked whilst down. I wasn't trying to talk... I guess what I was saying was 'collapsing was enough to tell me I'm incapable, you telling me I am too is hurting me'?

We will continue to work on wording and communication! I do feel our current problems are due to stress my partner has little coping straegy for - and how much energy he is able to put into a relationship on top of all of that. As he says, he is paid to talk to people at work! I would always rather he said that he needs time out, that shout though. And that is something he understands, until he becomes overwhelmed and then I don't know what's up. It's tough to feel like a sounding board then.

It's going to mean effort from both sides.

Nick said:

He will argue for example that I was telling him he isn’t respectful, when I say I don’t feel he’s being respectful of my feelings in the moment

This is exactly it. It links to what Plastic and Cloud7 said.

'Not being 'respectful of my feelings' is hugely triggering, it is loaded with layers of misunderstanding, assumptions, wrapped into an accusation, so one feels out of control in an emotional explosion, the need to defend and reject all those assumptions (as Cloud7 started to explain), while in fact what you are saying is 'please listen to my feelings', which is different.

To actually 'listen' and 'hear' each-other, you need to 'silence' all this anxiety and guilt and blame and frustration. Otherwise your are simply not in a state to hear each-other due to the double empathy problem.

When people are triggered, are in a state of high emotional arousal, our intelligent human brain is off line, the part of the brain in charge is the primitive reptilian brain, it doesn't have any capacity for nuance, dialogue and compromise. It just wants to fight, freeze of flight.  And those are the reactions  that come out, as Cloud7 describes - anger, muteness and withdrawal. The fight response comes in form of arguing and anger.

So to really start communicating, both partners need to be in a calm enough mode when the intelligent human brain can be in control. There are Psychotherapists that are trained in helping people to regulate each-others emotions and arousal. I found that type of therapy really helpful for my ASC problems. 

As mentioned above, you might like to understand the Double empathy problem and how understanding it might help to improve communication.

https://network.autism.org.uk/knowledge/insight-opinion/double-empathy-problem

I think the first step in bridging the double empathy gap is to regulate the emotional state.  

Plastic pointed out how seemingly small things could be very important triggers or signals of love and safety, how they can be calming and positive.

Plastic said:

You both need to find a way to communicate with each other and find agreement about all the little stuff to de-fuse it all so you can get on with the important stuff.

Agreement about the little stuff means you will both feel valued as you both understand WHY you each do the things you do.

Once you are in state to list to each-other, you need to start learning each-other's language. What certain gestures, behaviours and responses actually mean and how to read  and send signals that the other partner can register and understand. With my therapist, we literally acted situations that triggered me at home and found the 'translations' of what they meant and how to better handle such situations.

Then you might start developing some routines, some habits of signalling things that important to the partner in the language they can read, the way to be 'nice' as Cloud7 says. I mean this for both partners, because you are both misreading each-other. 

Tinyexplorer said:

Cloudy, there is no need to become combative. You are surprisingly defensive about hate groups.

With a starting statement that tries to paint me with an imaginary brush as some kind of hate figure as a strawman, I won't bother engaging with you as not to cause offense, feigned or otherwise.

Tinyexplorer said:

I am surprised that you are trying to assign intentions to me.

But it's perfectly fine for you to do so apparently.

Cloudy Mountains said:

I'm not going to defend something that sounds rather abusive, just because the person is ASC. If it was happening to you would you cling to some form of fabricated identitarian excuse, or call it out for what it looks like?

Cloudy, there is no need to become combative. You are surprisingly defensive about hate groups.

None of us are required to defend anything, nor are we required or indeed entitled to accuse people of abuse while in fact we have no idea neither of the facts, nor of the feelings of the two people involved. This is an anonymous forum on which people are presenting selective information that is one sided and subjective.

I  think when people seek advice to improve the relationship, to be helpful in is appropriate to explore and understand the context and perspectives a bit.

Everybody when talking have their own context. You too. Your sudden unwarranted bringing up of 'abuse' from the AS partner reflects your context, as does your combative defensiveness about what I said. I am not sure it is possible and meaningful to engage without seeking to understand the context of another person.

I am not judging anyone, neither am I defending, just trying to understand. For the moment the discussion is about symptoms, but the real underlying issues are not clear even to OP. 

In reality only the two people involved really know, but may not fully realise the psychological significance of what really goes on. This is why people are seeking advice from counseling or indeed at a forum. People need help untangling things with which they are too close to see. Cloud7 and Plastic just touched on them.

My 'if' statements are indeed just 'if' statements, they are not pointing or exonerating blame and I am surprised that you are trying to assign intentions to me. OP stated they had counselling that was unhelpful because of particular therapist.

There are therapists around that I saw described as 'anti men' and as 'anti ASC'. Some are trained and informed by people who promote a discriminatory model of the relationship, which victimises the autistic partner for being 'abusive' just by the fact of them being autistic, which means just by the fact of their existence. This approach doesn't have the theoretical and the ethical basis to be helpful to anyone. It is completely toxic.

Clearly, nobody should stay in an abusive relationship, or even in a relationship they no longer want to be in for whatever reasons. However, it takes two to tango, both partners are equally responsible for making their communication and relationship work for each-other. OP stated the desire to make it work with her chosen person. As Plastic said they need to work together to remove the barriers.

Autism is not a fabricated excuse, but a neurological reality. It looks like the two partners are struggling with some form of the double empathy problem, they need some help to bridge that gap and establish some good habits and routines, like Plastic suggested,  in reading each-other's signals correctly, acknowledging those signals in the correct way (they way that works), reinforcing the signals of love, safety and connectedness and removing the 'noise' that gets in a way of such connection.

Thank you for your reply. I don’t think that there was a lot of difference between these two words for my partner honestly – sometimes when he is feeling very sensitised he will come out with a lot of hurtful things,  and either not remember saying them or not want to talk about them because he didn’t mean them. He will argue for example that I was telling him he isn’t respectful, when I say I don’t feel he’s being respectful of my feelings in the moment and we need some space. I honestly can’t remember which way round he wanted these words now. It goes on for so long and is so high energy and exhausting, I can’t take anything in.

I don’t really understand what you have said about hate groups but I have a good understanding of ASC and it’s not something I would tolerate discrimination towards. 

Tinyexplorer said:

I could see how 'considerate' could be used by some hate groups in a patronising autism disparaging way, so it becomes loaded with discrimination, which cannot have any place in a relationship.

This is a thread about a relationship between two people, there are no "hate groups" involved. You are adding your own context. 

Tinyexplorer said:

If the couple tried one of those counsellors that are informed by discriminatory model of the relationship promoted by autism hate groups, than any reference to it and any language associated with it would just be a red flag that totally undermines the trust and the safety of the relationship.

I'm thinking that you feel people on the spectrum are beyond reproach. They aren't. Again I fail to see what "hate groups" have to do with anything. You are reaching.

Tinyexplorer said:

It is clear from the OP is that both partners are distressed, the autistic partner is feeling very 'sensitised', i.e. allergic to something.

Yes, common decency.

Tinyexplorer said:

If they used some of those groups, the first thing is to unlearn that and detoxify the relationship.

If we shouldn't judge without context, you don't seem to extend that to yourself. Rather than take it at face value, you've created a whole scenario around a context that may not exist.

I'm not going to defend something that sounds rather abusive, just because the person is ASC. If it was happening to you would you cling to some form of fabricated identitarian excuse, or call it out for what it looks like?