Meltdown or tantrum?

Thanks Lonewarrior!  That's a really lovely thing to hear and I'm glad it was useful for you too x

I think you have it spot on, there, NAS39316. Everything I'm reading sounds very familiar.
I agree that the things listed that have upset your daughter sound like " disruption to her inner routine and monologue" issues. The cereal thing as well; some of us have really strong food likes and dislikes because of sensory sensitivity.

The strong sense of justice, the inability to apply the rules flexibly, the lack of emotional insight/articulation, the difficulty getting along with the younger sibling (the age gap between me and my brother is similar, and "a nightmare when you need routine and consistency" sums it up!). 

I'm impressed that you've already discovered the pressure trick! I have my partner do it when I'm on the edge, it's the only thing that works quickly for me; otherwise it's a few hours alone decompressing. 

Seconding Lonewarrior, you're doing all the right things! x

Yiur an amazing mum who should feel proud of yourself for taking the time to find out as much as you can and taking notice of those here that lived a life similar in some ways to your little girl, yes it is a very broad spectrum , we are all unique, but rest assured we are a group, we work together and understand in differing levels just how your daughter and you feel.

We each have issues specific to ourselves, but we get it, we know the feeling albeit possibly in a lesser way,

 take care and you are doing a marvellous job so far, long may it continue, x

Wow Emma your awesome,,, You not only help educate parents you educate us all, I knew the differences but reading the many variables that can cause issues and melt downs is most enlightening, big thank you for being such a positive ambassador for autism and us. X()x

Hi school holidays are also a serious problem in my house as the amount of free time is just to much to handle. 

I also suffer the same issue with the girls in that the younger one (6) quite rightly wants her turn at things and to use her ideas for games but the older one (7) gets really angry that it's not right so lashes out so naturally the little one copies and all hell breaks loose! 

I try and explain it that they are both different and that we will take turns at set times ( sometimes works) but the younger one is getting very resentful as she sees it as the other getting more attention (especially since the older one is up most of the night and will only sleep with me) and I hate fact that in a way she is right. I try to make time for them separately this seems to help with the oldest ones sense of routine 

But we are now struggling after school as she spends so much time trying to fit in that she is literally a time bomb when she comes home 

You are definitely not alone in this 

In a weird way it’s nice to hear I’m not alone! I’m finding it hard to tell when she is aware of behaviour or not as it’s 0-100 very quickly.

i hear a lot of “it’s not fair” when it’s her sisters turn for something or she has to share. It’s also not fair that her sister has to march to her beat. I feel like whatever I do one of them will be wronged. 

She’s generally does remove herself but as soon as the meltdown starts she will throw what ever she has or if her sister is close by she will hit, kick or push her. 

I don’t think it’s attention seeking, she never does it at school, it’s only happened once out of the house. It’s never because she wants something like toys or sweets (infact she’s very good at knowing no means no), it’s nearly always because she is either worried about something or because she can’t control the situation. I just wonder if things like wanting to choose what to watch on tv is her being a madam or her having already planned it out in her head.

we do count downs and reminders when possible which do help, I think I need to get a firmer grip on this whole routine thing. I never really thought she was that routine led but maybe she’s just not telling me!

Wow, thank you there’s a lot for me to consider there, I really appreciate you taking the time to write all that. I hadn’t considered that she may be making up her own routine in her head, it’s half term so things are a lot more casual than normal. I try to keep to a simple routine and set of plans but hadn’t considered that she could possibly be taking as far as planning every moment step by step and changes to this might be distressing her.

To answe a few of your questions, when I say not getting her own way I mean things like, having to have a different cereal because I’ve run out of her usual one, having to tidy up after herself when she wants to move onto another activity, having to go out if she wants to stay in, having to let her sister choose what to watch on tv and the big one having to share. 

Writing it down I can see that this might just be disruption to her inner routine and monologue.

She has a strong sense of justice which is great but she can’t see that sometimes rules change based on the situation and people involved. For example she might get told off for something like bad table manners where as her younger sister doesn’t get in trouble because she’s still learning to use a knife and fork. 

I haven’t noticed any sensory triggers yet, I know she can find some noises annoying. I have no idea if anything else bothers her because she can’t/won’t say.

her younger sister is 4, I try and explain that her big sister can get upset easily and that when that happens she needs to be left alone. I  have also told her that certain things will annoy her but she’s 4, has a tendency to wind her sister up and sometimes just doesn’t get why she can’t sing or randomly join in her sisters game. 

The only way I have found to calm her down is to literally squeeze her really tightly or almost lie on top of her so the deep pressure thing you mentioned is interesting. She definitely isn’t able to identify when a meltdown is going to happen, she struggles to tell me how she feels and has never said “I’m angry or sad or frustrated”. There is just a lot of vitriol, mainly aimed at her sister who she sees as the cause for most of her problems, I guess an unpredictable 4 year old is not only an easy target but probably a nightmare when you need routine and consistency. 

Im going to have a look at that pdf but I really am greatful for all you wonderful insight.

I think the main difference between a tantrum and a meltdown is that a tantrum is attention seeking, an attempt to get your own way, whereas a meltdown is the result of mental or physical overload, and requires time out and quiet. But she needs to learn how to control her tantrums, especially if she may harm someone or herself.

I don't think it's possible to "discipline" a meltdown, only to try to alleviate the cause.

As nexus9 has already said, she may need to be removed from the situation, or be encouraged to vent her anger at something else. For example, "stress balls", tearing up newspapers or thumping cushions works for my son.

Interrupting his special interest (computing) always provokes anger, but it can be much reduced by giving him at least 15 minutes prior warning of the change, with a reminder every 5 minutes. (I realise you may well already be doing something like this yourself, but thought it worth mentioning in case.)

Ok, so the basic simplistic rundown of the difference is;

A tantrum= A desperate attempt to get something the child wants.
Child, to the extent that children do at the age they are, knows what they are doing.
Child can be distracted or placated, giving the child what they wanted will stop the tantrum in its tracks.
Child recovers fairly quickly.
All children have these, the expectation is that as they grow up they find better ways of getting what they want/coping with not getting it. An autistic child may get this more slowly (as the ability to cope with one's own emotions is something that is directly negatively affected in autism), which should be allowed for, but they should also be learning, like NT children, that tantrums are not the 'right' way to deal with things.

A meltdown= An explosion of unprocessed negative emotion, often but not always built up over a long time (the course of a day, or even several).
Child is almost entirely on autopilot and doesn't know why they are doing what they are doing. They may even be alarmed by the intensity of it after the fact, which is a dead giveaway.
Child cannot be reasoned with, distracted, placated or calmed by giving them what they appear to want (the apparent trigger is rarely the only trigger, more like the "final straw").
Child is extremely exhausted/emotionally drained afterwards. 
Very much an autism thing, so it would be both pointless and unfair to expect a child not to have them or discipline for them (at any age; adults still have meltdowns, but these tend to be less frequent due to learning better coping mechanisms for the actual causes over time).


"having to change games etc to accommodate her sisters wants"
This line jumped out at me, because changing activity is a classic example of something autistic people experience very differently and much more negatively than neurotypical (non-autistic) people seem to. 

Being asked to suddenly change activity, to an autistic person, can evoke a visceral feeling of discomfort and repulsion. There is a compulsive need to finish the task that was being focused on before the interruption and not being able to act on it can feel unbearably uncomfortable and provoke an immediate and extreme reaction, especially as a child (again, purely because autistic adults have generally developed coping mechanisms with time and experience). I have likened it to being asked to stop using the toilet in the middle, which is not a pleasant analogy (so apologies for that mental image) but one that I feel is the most accurate! 

Even before I was diagnosed (I wasn't even flagged up as "possibly autistic" until I was 14, because girls generally weren't when I was a child), my mum used to use strategies such as giving "X amount of time until we [change activity]", without the expectation of a verbal response, then reminding again at intervals over the course of an hour or more to gradually let me cool down from the thing I was focused on. She called it "planting a seed", which is a metaphor I rather like.
I also like the analogy of landing a plane; if you just plunge the nose down when you're directly over the airport it all ends in fiery doom (meltdown). You need to extend the landing gear and the flaps and raise the nose and gradually slow down before you even think about touching down on that runway. 

"not getting her own way"
What do you mean, specifically, by "not getting her own way"? 
If this relates to "things she is going to do" or "things that are going to happen", there may be an issue of routine/script deviation behind this, which is another classic meltdown trigger.

Autistic children, on the whole, need routine and knowledge of what is going to happen to them in the immediate future in order to feel secure.
If you've been doing some reading around as part of the diagnostic process you have probably already read that a change in an expected routine can be very distressing for an autistic child. 
One of the big problems that most people don't foresee, however, comes when there isn't an expected schedule (provided from an outside source, e.g. a parent) for a particular activity or time of day. The child can then sometimes make up their own "script" as a self-reassuring thing under these circumstances. "I'm going to play this until I achieve X and then I'm going to have a drink and then I'm going to..." and not tell anyone else about it.
When a parent or other person then tries to get the child to do something else, they then unknowingly hit the "routine change" trigger and chaos ensues!

Other meltdown triggers that build up throughout the day include; Sensory input (textures, too-bright lights, noises that are too loud or at a pitch the person is very sensitive too) that a neurotypical person might not even notice but cause the autistic person a significant amount of stress, Social situations (autistic people often find these take a lot of mental energy to navigate), Perceived injustices/upset to themselves or others; contrary to the common belief that autistic people lack empathy, that applies to cognitive empathy (which is being able to "put oneself in another's shoes" and accurately recognise another's emotional state) only. Affective empathy is usually normal and some of us even have an unusually strong response when we do realise another's suffering exists (and react to it with extreme personal distress). 

Discipline in itself is something you may want to approach in a different way than you would do with a neurotypical child, because confrontation is something many autistic people find deeply uncomfortable/hard to process and could therefore contribute to a meltdown in itself. Autistic kids tend to respond much better to reward systems (additive for wanted behaviour only, as we may react very strongly if we feel 'points' have been taken away unfairly; which they might be if it's for a behaviour we can't help. Best not to invite such scenarios by subtracting at all).

The only way to stop meltdowns is prevention, be that reducing the exposure to triggers (ideal) or teaching your daughter coping strategies such as taking herself off somewhere quiet or wrapping herself in a blanket (deep pressure can be soothing) when she feels a meltdown is imminent. This may or may not be possible because the ability to identify one's own emotions is often reduced with autism. It depends on your daughter, but I would absolutely not expect it to be something she can do reliably at seven.

My family found this book (available as a free PDF) really helpful when I was first diagnosed. 

http://autismforthvalley.co.uk/files/5314/4595/7798/Attwood-Tony-The-Complete-Guide-to-Aspergers-Syndrome.pdf

How old is your other daughter? Is she old enough to start learning that your probably-autistic daughter has a different way of thinking and taking that into account in her interactions with her sister? Sharing that information, teaching each child to intellectually understand the other's thought processes in equal measure, might significantly help their relationship going forward and nip any bad feelings that might result from treating them differently (which is really a necessity, because they are different) in the bud.
I used to have an extremely antagonistic relationship with my sibling, before I was diagnosed and learned my coping strategies and he started to talk to me about/read about autism and learn the reasons behind the outward behaviour.


Hope some of this helps (and sorry it's such an essay; I've tried to break it into digestible chunks) 

Emma x

I have exactly the same problem! My daughter is 7 with no diagnosis yet her sister is 6 and the arguments and meltdowns are getting horrific to the point of her hurting her sister I spend most of my home life feeling like a referee not a mum.

I have noticed a difference between some of the tantrums these one are totally out of control even she doesn't realise what she is doing these are generally triggered by the little one interfering with her repeatedly skipping across the room. These ones I have to separate them until it passes 

Argument over telly when she is shouting and screaming that she is disciplined for as she is aware of her behaviour 

Tell her if she needs to vent she can, but must remove herself from situations where other people could get hurt?