Is Santa silly?

But you believe some of what's in cartoons is representative and factually true?

NAS11521 said:

Arran, what a joyless couple you and Paull are.

I disagree. There are plenty of other joys for children to experience. Has it crossed your mind that there are millions of children in both Britain and the rest of the world who do not celebrate Christmas and neither are they told the Santa lie from people around them? Do you have any evidence that they are less happy than children who have been indoctrinated with the Santa lie? Are their lives joyless?  

I am not talking about a fictional story where children know it is make believe, I am talking about children being led to believe that something that cannot physically happen is fact...and as I have pointed out it leads to a whole series of lies... this is nothing about being joyless or being some kind of stick in the mud depriving children of fantasy....I am not saying children should not read stories or watch movies, there is a distinct difference between telling something as a fact and telling something as a fantasy and telling something as a fact that is not true - especially to the growing and vulnerable mind of a child can interfere with a childs rational thinking.

I was donated a large stack of video tapes of cartoons by a family who were moving house when I was only about 6 or 7 years old, that provided me with many hours of joy and entertainment. I did not believe that everything in them was representative of reality or factually true.

Also I think people just need to connect with something.....

However "logical" you want to be - basically we are up against some tricky imponderables. we're stuck on a rock in the vastness of space - and bar science fiction - no prospect of connecting with anyone on any other pieces of rock out there. And my mind cannot get round no beginning or end of time, no end to space. Nor why I'm here...although I think it was to be a nuisance to everything from NAS to myriad pointless politicians.

So most people try to connect with something, which usually manifests as religion. One of the things people tried to make sense of was winter, in the cold and the dark, the rebirth of the trees and birth of lambs etc in Spring, and the sense of loss in autumn.

Whether you do this through an established religion like Christianity, with the birth of Jesus or revert to pagan models about rebirth of the year at the lengthening of days, just noting the event and celebrating it each time it happens is really important. It gives people an opportunity to feel glad and to share their gladness and relief with others.

OK for people alone, and for people on the spectrum who find the social response difficult, Christmas is hard, and tends to point out the isolation and the vulnerability. And its a terrible time of year to be stuck for cash, or have nowhere warm and secure to live.

I'm not really worried whether you believe in santa or not, or whether it matters what stories we tell our kids, I just feel it is ever so important to have some kind of celebration at this time, whether it is Christmas or New Year. 

And by the way, up until the 70s most Scots celebrated New Year rather than Christmas, and the English tended to underplay New Year, even going to work on New year's Day. Its just now we all celebrate both - which is a tad greedy

If you feel happier going to a Star Trek Convention in late December in order to meet someone pretending to be Mr Data, if that floats your boat (meaningful metaphor that one) - go with it.

But please leave people who want to believe in santa to go on doing it, cos it matters to them,....and it clearly matters to their children.....

Not that that'll be an end to this discussion ....oh no....by Christmas we'll have passed a thousand messages, not the mere 120 or so we have now!

I am not talking about a fictional story where children know it is make believe, I am talking about children being led to believe that something that cannot physically happen is fact...and as I have pointed out it leads to a whole series of lies... this is nothing about being joyless or being some kind of stick in the mud depriving children of fantasy....I am not saying children should not read stories or watch movies, there is a distinct difference between telling something as a fact and telling something as a fantasy and telling something as a fact that is not true - especially to the growing and vulnerable mind of a child can interfere with a childs rational thinking.

If you were to isolate 2 children from the world for a year and put them in separate rooms and tell one child in room A that outside the room is full of fairies, father christmas, the stork, the bogeyman, that jesus performed miracles etc and you tell the other child in room B nothing but the truth, then which child do you think will cope better mentally once they leave the room - yes it's a far fetched scenario, but each lie is like a drop of poison, you can eat a microscopic amount of poison and it has very little effect that it almost goes unnoticed, so the only way to prove it is poisonous is to take a sufficient amount - in the same way that the child in room A is being told lots of lies.

The problem with the many santa lies is that they are all told over and over and over again, year upon year for weeks at a time.

Would you be proud of a child who had the wisdom and intelligence to work out he was being told lies or proud of a child that believed all these lies to be facts ?

If it was your child and you had to put them into one of the rooms, which room would you choose ?

If you consider it being joyless not to lie to a child and to tell them the truth then you have a serious misconception of joy. To live with lies is to live in darkness, to live with truth is the purest joy.

IntenseWorld said:

Nothing to do with comfort zone.  I was already well aware that it's a Christian celebration (and I have already said further up the thread that I do not belong to any religion).

You haven't taken on board my previous comments. In #83 I stated that the Santa lie is pervasive in Britain and is followed by millions of people who are atheist or only weakly Christian. It is effectively part of British popular culture rather than religion. I also stated in #34 that there are many Christians who do not embrace the Santa lie and atheists who do embrace it.

I find it intriguing why atheists have the desire to participate in religious celebrations, and that includes Christmas complete with the Santa lie.

...I'll tell you what, let's just get rid of all fables, stories, yarns, folklore, mythology, campside tales, religion, beliefs or wishes that ever existed and live like imaginationless robots.  There, sorted.  Simples.  (squeak)

I can see a big difference between these and the Santa lie but maybe you can't. Very few parents tell their children that fiction and fairy stories that are known to be untrue are true but millions of them lie about Santa to their children.

none of which can provide any hard facts because the result of telling this lie/myth to children can only be seen in their adulthood and as yet there is no study of adults.

There are definitely some studies around about people who don't celebrate Christmas for reasons other than following another religion. I have come across a few 'scrooges' from time to time who say that Christmas is really just a waste of money.

yes, good idea...lets get rid of the lot of them, then people will live in the real world and live their lives based on facts rather than fiction...oh what a different world it would be, without religious zombies fighting each other for the sake of upholding their own set of lies.

...I'll tell you what, let's just get rid of all fables, stories, yarns, folklore, mythology, campside tales, religion, beliefs or wishes that ever existed and live like imaginationless robots.  There, sorted.  Simples.  (squeak)

Paull said:

"I am always listening and reading from a variety of sources"

none of which can provide any hard facts because the result of telling this lie/myth to children can only be seen in their adulthood and as yet there is no study of adults.

Oh do forgive me, I should have had the psychic abilities to realise that whilst I was accessing said sources, conversations, forums, books etc. that I ought to have been recording them faithfully because one day I would be facing a kangaroo court in which I would have to give evidence.

I gave links for studies further up the thread.  I am prepared (along with others on this thread I'm sure, who expressed the same as myself that they had not been negatively impacted) to be considered as a research participant for any upcoming study (my only fee will be a chocolate santa).

This is a farce.

"oh what a tangled web we weave when we first practise to decieve" - and nothing is more fitting of that than the father christmas lie.

This lie just grows and grows as parents seek to cement the false belief in their childrens minds by lying more and more to cover up the initial lie.

multiple lies and the questioning mind of a rational child.

Santa comes down the chimney - How can he get in we don't have a chimney / it's blocked up ?

Santa eats a mince pie in every house he goes to - Surely thats impossible, he would be really really fat and also sick after eating so much.

Santa reads your letter you sent to the noth pole - and knows when you've been good or bad - But there are many many children all over the world, how can he know me or even have time to read all those letters.

Santa's sleigh is driven by reindeer - but how can reindeer fly ?

Santa delivers presents to all the children in the world in one night - how can he fit all those presents onto the sleigh ? How can he get round every single house in just one night ?

All the toys are made by elves at the north pole ? But how come my playstation says made in China ? Did eleves really make it ? how ? It's made by sony ?

Talk about messing with childrens minds. I fear for the rational thinking of anyone who cannot see why filling childrens heads with these lies interferes with their rational thinking.

"I am always listening and reading from a variety of sources"

none of which can provide any hard facts because the result of telling this lie/myth to children can only be seen in their adulthood and as yet there is no study of adults.

Nothing to do with comfort zone.  I was already well aware that it's a Christian celebration (and I have already said further up the thread that I do not belong to any religion).  I am always listening and reading from a variety of sources, I do not behave in a secular way.  Did you not read all of my last post?!

This is a situation where I recommend that you begin to accept that you may just be wrong.

IntenseWorld said:

Or is it just possible that I go by my own memories of Christmas as a child, the experiences of my own two children and the countless things I have read about the experiences of others.  Occam's Razor.

This is a situation where I recommend that you step out of your comfort zone and look at the complete picture from multiple perspectives.

Or is it just possible that I go by my own memories of Christmas as a child, the experiences of my own two children and the countless things I have read about the experiences of others.  Occam's Razor.

IntenseWorld said:

If you aren't a parent you will not understand for yourself the enjoyment and magic things like that can bring to your own child, you will therefore have an impassive and factual way of thinking about it.

This doesn't hold any water. There must be at least a million parents in Britain who do not celebrate Christmas and therefore do not propagate the Santa lie to their children. I have encountered parents who believed in Santa during their own childhood but were later left disappointed and somewhat baffled so they have decided to tell the truth (that Santa is a lie) to their own children. I think your argument for upholding the Santa lie is built on a platform of assimilation and going with the flow more than anything else. Not all children enjoy the so called magic of Christmas and if they follow another religion it becomes almost meaningless, if not bizarre. You haven't properly factored these people into your argument.

If you aren't a parent you will not understand for yourself the enjoyment and magic things like that can bring to your own child, you will therefore have an impassive and factual way of thinking about it.  Even autistic people are capable of emotions and attachment.

Strange thinking, I have already explained elsewhere in the thread.

IntenseWorld said:

But then you don't appear to be a parent and suffer from strange thinking patterns.

Could you elaborate on this one? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I called Santa the Santa Claus Man, and didnt tell my son he came down the chimney, its lying, but I did let him see Santa, but he saw me paying money to do it so he knew it wasn't really a kind man just coming out of the North Pole to give children presents, just a man in a red suit doing a job.

Some people said I was being mean and a spoilsport but I dont think I was.

Arran said:

[quote]Any group could have any philosophy.  Don't see how it's a relevant point.[/quote]

Because I assumed that being in the presence of such people would spoil your day.

No.  Atypical thinking, but not strange and illogical.

Isn't it strange and illogical to go round telling children that something exists that you fully well know doesn't exist, under the pretext of the joys of childhood or the magic of Christmas? I think it is.

Never assume.  Assumptions are anathema to someone on the spectrum.

No.  But then you don't appear to be a parent and suffer from strange thinking patterns.

IntenseWorld said:

Any group could have any philosophy.  Don't see how it's a relevant point.

Because I assumed that being in the presence of such people would spoil your day.

No.  Atypical thinking, but not strange and illogical.

Isn't it strange and illogical to go round telling children that something exists that you fully well know doesn't exist, under the pretext of the joys of childhood or the magic of Christmas? I think it is.

Arran said:

[quote]Finally, why on earth would an autism support group tell children that Santa doesn't exist?[/quote]

I'm not sure why you need to ask this question but the group could have a philosophy of wanting children to know the truth or the organisers could hold the view that Santa is silly in this day and age.

Any group could have any philosophy.  Don't see how it's a relevant point.

Your thinking style is very strange.

Isn't one of the cornerstones of ASD supposed to be a strange style of thinking?

No.  Atypical thinking, but not strange and illogical.