Law Breaking and Disregard for Others another Moan !

It would be nice if NAS would press for inclusion of sensory difficulties in guidelines on autism.

For example the modified Triad used in the NICE Guidelines for adults with autism, which integrates communication and social, and has a second arm based on routine and organisational issues attributed "avoiding crowds" to the latter.

I would have thought for most people on the spectrum, avoiding crowds is a response to sensory issues and overload. The trouble is most of the guidelines on autism, if they mention sensory issues at all, treat it as a minor secondary condition.

Yet I suspect sensory overload may be a key factor in explaining the social and communication difficulties.

IntenseWorld's link is to a tiny study of four people with marked autism and learning disability (if not language limitations) and their responses to noisy objects, for which they were given cards to use to communicate discomfort. At that level any progress in understanding is going to be a long time coming!

I'm talking about the experiences of people across the spectrum, including those deemed able or mild, because it seems to me that sensory issues forms a fairly universal problem, that might be a baseline characteristic rather than this so-called spectrum grading into the general population. Lots of people on the spectrum have difficulty with noise. Little is done to help.

I've commented elsewhere on the Guides to Employers. Noise in workplaces, including conversational noise, is crucial for people on the spectrum in the workplace. Are employers told about it?

I don't think that NAS takes noise issues seriously, and I also object to NAS churning out the Triad of Impairments, as if it adequately defines the day to day experiences of people with autism - it is a diagnostic tool.

longman said:

I don't know the answer to the sensory overload issues as the powers that be, including NAS, don't seem to see a need to help us with it.

You might find this interesting Longman:

http://network.autism.org.uk/sites/default/files/ckfinder/files/sensory_preferences_all.pdf

I think Longman means that you should campaign to get sensory issues written into the ICD.

Longman - What do you feel the NAS could do re. sensory issues? 

Paull said:

no I agree with it all apart from when you say 'Hitlers insane racial views', I just find it funny that people see Hitler as some kind of villain simply because he lost the war, let's not forget that Alexander the Great, Richard the Lionheart, Gengis Khan, Napoleon etc...to name just a few of the more known, all had a similar ideology, to advance their own race at the detriment of others, to expland their territory, build their empire etc..but because they won their wars history mainly sees them as heroes not villains.

I think people see Hitler as a villain because he had six million people systematically murdered. He was still seen as a villain at the height of Operation Barbarossa, when it looked like he was going to defeat the USSR and win the war in Europe. It's not just about who wins or loses, but about what they do. Stalin won the war, but that doesn't make him look like less of a villain for his own persecution and extermination of his own people.

Alex R (Posting personally)

A lot of "criminality" of the sort you describe is a reaction to society, or a perception of society. We cannot all fit in to one scheme of social organisation, especially as there are always greedy people who take vastly more than their share, and others as a consequence who greatly lose out. Even socialist doctrines were prone to abuse, as demonstrated by the system of "perks" for party adherents in socialist Russia.

So people break rules in an anti-social way, because if they did strictly adhere it only makes being at the bottom of the pile feel worse. I don't think it has anything to do with survival of the fittest. Parallels to hitler or anything like that aren't helpful here.

Loud personal stereo though may have more to do with consequent loss of hearing sensitivity, they end up having to turn the volume up so high that their sound can be heard by everyone around them.

The drug scene is as much a product of alternative (criminal) markets as drug dependancy is a way of making money and supporting gangland economies. Pit bull terriers, like knives, become necessaries for those living up against the criminal element, willingly or unwillingly.

At the end of my postgrad years I had to sign on, but immediately got a temporary job for three months. When that ended I signed on again to find I couldn't get benefit for several months because of a rule I wasn't told about. I should have completed a process before I took that first temporary job. I was directed to a book on the market on how to beat social services which showed me this was a scam. I went to appeal, they tried to dissuade me, then offered me half - I insisted on appeal, and they gave in and gave me all my entitlements.

During the last recession, early 90s, I was made redundant, and immediately found I was being denied paperwork I needed for my mortgage insurer. Prepared by previous insight I immediately made a formal complaint, and the misleading actions were stopped and I was told (probably didn't happen) the person responsible was disciplined - didn't mean she was removed. Had I not stood up to this I would have lost the insurance cover and been very much worse off.

The DHSS functions to kick the losers in society. Most DHSS staff came into the job off the dole anyway, most have a grievance against society. They deliberately give false information to new claimants to teach them what scroungers deserve (apparently it was done to them so they dole it out same way).

I'm sure a lot of the difficulties people on the spectrum experience with DHSS/Job Centres etc is down to delibrate misinformation. Social services seem to attract nasty spiteful and dishonest people.

If you want to have a go at criminality start with Social Services. I think a lot of the bad attitude we see around us is down to people feeling "done down" and for many people in those circumstances they feel "done down" by the State, usually their first experiences being out of work and screwed by the DHSS.

A lot of the noise and other discomfort factors you describe are down to sensory sensitivity and sensory overload (apparently not an autism issue as it is not covered by the triad of impairments).

NTs seem mostly to be quite at ease with the noise, but react to intimidating environments, like hoodies (young people especially who always have hoods on), or groups of youngg people, who they perceive rightly or wrongly as a threat.

I don't know the answer to the sensory overload issues as the powers that be, including NAS, don't seem to see a need to help us with it.

Paull said:

no I agree with it all apart from when you say 'Hitlers insane racial views', I just find it funny that people see Hitler as some kind of villain simply because he lost the war, let's not forget that Alexander the Great, Richard the Lionheart, Gengis Khan, Napoleon etc...to name just a few of the more known, all had a similar ideology, to advance their own race at the detriment of others, to expland their territory, build their empire etc..but because they won their wars history mainly sees them as heroes not villains.

If stags decided not to fight and just split the fawns then the strongest genes will not get passed to the next generation, in the same way mankind has advanced through wars, through fighting only the strongest survived, the bloodstock of the human race is borne from fighting and the same thing can be seen in nature such as when other species have their own territory. They fight for their territory not because they are selfish but because the survival of their species depends on it because those that win the fight pass on the strongest genes, without this they would never have evolved and life on earth would be just a mass of brainless creatures with no need to evolve.

The point being that to call Hitler's view insane is to call nature insane because through nature species fight among their own species and others to advance their own kind at the detriment of those others. If Hitler is insane then so is every other person who tried to advance their own race and build an empire, and every other creature on the planet that did the same.

Paull, that's a fair point of sorts, and I totally get what you're saying. (Although personally I do think nature is insane!)

I said that Hitler's views were insane because the concept of the "aryan" is a myth, which, oddly enough, even Hitler knew himself. His ideas to "purify" Germany and the wider world of Jews, LGBT people, disabled people etc were horrific - though Churchill had similar views when it came to Native Americans and indigenous peoples, and did write policy in accordance with his views, so I see your point about history being biased that way and agree.

In terms of survival of the strongest, I dunno. You're right in one sense, that we'd be brainless without it, but it could turn against us in another sense. We've evolved to fight and be tough, ruthless and cunning, and at the moment, I think it's those things that often go to the detriment of society, such as the petty criminals that annoy us both, whom exhibit brilliantly the traits of being tough, ruthless and cunning.

no I agree with it all apart from when you say 'Hitlers insane racial views', I just find it funny that people see Hitler as some kind of villain simply because he lost the war, let's not forget that Alexander the Great, Richard the Lionheart, Gengis Khan, Napoleon etc...to name just a few of the more known, all had a similar ideology, to advance their own race at the detriment of others, to expland their territory, build their empire etc..but because they won their wars history mainly sees them as heroes not villains.

If stags decided not to fight and just split the fawns then the strongest genes will not get passed to the next generation, in the same way mankind has advanced through wars, through fighting only the strongest survived, the bloodstock of the human race is borne from fighting and the same thing can be seen in nature such as when other species have their own territory. They fight for their territory not because they are selfish but because the survival of their species depends on it because those that win the fight pass on the strongest genes, without this they would never have evolved and life on earth would be just a mass of brainless creatures with no need to evolve.

The point being that to call Hitler's view insane is to call nature insane because through nature species fight among their own species and others to advance their own kind at the detriment of those others. If Hitler is insane then so is every other person who tried to advance their own race and build an empire, and every other creature on the planet that did the same.

Hi Paull

I can definitely sympathise with some of the things you've listed that annoy you. Sometimes, people's actions really seem to impinge upon our consciousness and can really upset the mood of the day. I don't think there's anything wrong with that in itself, as it shows someone to be more thoughtful in mindset, but I think too much concern about what other people do can really distort people's perception.

For me personally, the reason I don't like seeing/hearing some of the things you've listed is more because of the menacing value they have, as opposed to it being "unlawful". As the old saying goes, "laws are to be broken", especially if they're unreasonable laws that serve no other function but to encroach and stifle people's freedoms. There's been thousands of laws in history and in present day that are patently absurd, cruel and serve no good purpose whatsoever, and obeying them without question would be, if anything, a disservice to humanity. Take Nazi Germany for example: they banned Jazz music, for no other reason than racist bigotry. Would it be more immoral to defy that law and play jazz music that brings people together in harmony than it would be to pander to that law and consequently legitimise and give credence to Hitler's insane racial views? I would have thought the latter was far more immoral, myself. What about 1950s America criminalising interracial marriage? Or Saudi Arabia's ban on women driving cars? (or showing any part of their bodies, for that matter) Just because something's written in the law by those in positions of decision making, it doesn't make it any more legitimate. Also Paull, you said that "this is the society created by man", but it's the very same society that created the laws in the first place. Without it, there'd be no law whatsoever, even when it came down to murder, so I think our society is far better than the alternative, however bad it can get.

That's my thoughts on your post, Paull, and I hope they give a bit of food for thought, even if you disagree!

Being rule bound and incensed by the breaking of rules by others is a very autistic trait.  It drives me mad too, and it has affected my choices of where to go before, you seem more extreme about it than me however.

Try to block some of it out, you can't let others totally dictate your life, although I do totally understand you wanting to stay away from it all.  Look on it, that you hate the way they break rules/laws and are selfish, but you aren't going to let them destroy you too.

Make choices based on what you want not on what others do.  As long as you keep yourself safe and sane!