See,
http://freetalha.org/2012/10/action-mckinnon-extradition-halted/
Talha Ahsan is in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison in Conneticuit, unable to contact his family, without any support.
Is this equality ?
Everyone should write to the media.
There is an excellent summary of the Talha Ahsan case here:
David said:A community sentence would be more appropriate when he should have to work under supervision to help make computer systems more secure.
David
Indeed, and I suspect that this is a key issue in Gary Mckinnon's case.
People with OCD might forget about whether what they are doing is illegal or legal when they get so absorbed. A court in the USA might not take his OCD and his other medical conditions into account where as British Courts try to.
Whether he would commit suicide or not sixty years is too long which he might have got if extradited.
A community sentence would be more appropriate when he should have to work under supervision to help make computer systems more secure.
David
Gary Mckinnon was partly not extradited because he has a co-existing condition called OCD. Obsessional Compulsive Disorder Teresa May might regret not extraditing Garry as now other criminals are asking not to be extradited.
When Gary was hacking into the Pentagon he might not have been fully aware that what he was doing was illegal or morrally wrong as he was so absorbed in it.
David
Whilst AS should be taken into consideration, it should not allow you to do whatever and escape punishment.
I can't speak for Tahla because I do not know his case. Of course I am very pleased that Mckinnon will no longer be extridited: he is a harmless man, no danger to society, and the punishment was extremely disproportinate to what he did. He is mentally unwell and needs support.
But as Scorpian has argued, having Aspergers is no justification for avoiding prison when a person is a real threat to society; although we can debate how much punishment should be meted out and whether we should really punish at all, aside from removing the culprit from society because they risk causing harm to innocent people.
People with AS are usually fully aware of right and wrong and should not be treated as below the law unless a mental illness means they have lost touch with reality - as happened with Mckinnon. In any case it could be argued that all criminals have something 'wrong' with them, either within them or affecting them from outside like poverty, but we don't excuse violent or dangerous behaviour because it violates another person's human rights. So maybe Tahla should not be extridited if, like Mckinnon, he is at risk of suicide due to mental illness, but merely having Aspergers is no excuse. We are agents and responsible for our own actions; we are not merely victims, and to suggest so is patronizing and insults our intelligence.
poor man.what a outrage he has not had the concern for him as Gary has.Its an example of the unawarness of autism within our society,will the Nas express our concern for Talha Ahsan's welfare,that he will get fair and humane treatment from the Americans
Gary Mckinnon and Assam seem to bave been charged with differerent crimes.
Gary Mckinnon seems to have been compelled by OCD. but it does not appear to be the case in Assams.
I have met Gary's Mother and Girl Friend but not Assams. family so I only know what I read on the web about Assam.
As I said in previous E Mails if you let one person off every body demands to be let off.
Every case has to be treated on its merits and we cannot say no one with Asperger should be in prision.
David
(post edited to remove full name - philippab-mod)
But Home Office medical evidence showed that as well as suffering Asperger's syndrome like Ahsan, Mr McKinnon was also very likely to try to kill himself if extradited to the US, where he faced up to 60 years in prison if convicted."
****************
It says both Ahsan and McKinnon are both aspergers sufferer, both likely to commit suicide, the same risk assessment, one was extradited, one was not extradited.
See,
http://freetalha.org/2012/10/action-mckinnon-extradition-halted/
Expert advice was noted in McKinnon’s case and led to extradition being halted but were ignored in Ahsan’s. Dr Quinton Deeley recommended Talha receive specialist care for his condition after he was diagnosed in 2009: “It should be noted that by virtue of his Asperger’s syndrome and depressive disorder, (Talha) is an extremely vulnerable individual who, from a psychiatric perspective, would be more appropriately placed in a specialist service for adults with autistic disorders and co-morbid mental health problems, with a level of security dictated by his risk assessment.”A European Court of Human Rights hearing in March this year said that before Talha was diagnosed with Asperger’s, “a psychiatrist had predicted a high risk of serious depression leading to suicide if the third applicant (Ahsan) were to be extradited and placed in solitary confinement for a long period.”
I am sure that the suicide reason was not the only reason why Gary was not extradited.
One good reason for not extraditing Gary was because the Americans should make their computer systems more secure.
I hope they have now tightened security.
Another reason is that Gary probably had OCD Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
Gary probably had a compulsion to do his hacking.
It is true that Gary himself did not tell the Home Secretary that he will commit suicide if extradited. His lawyer did so it is not quite the same thing.
At primiary school my Mother told a teacher it would disturb me if he slippered me so he did not for the two years he taught me although I was sometimes very naughty.
Before the war people convicted of robbery with violence and sentenced to a flogging would have a medical examination before being flogged. If three muggers were flogged and if a fourth mugger for the same crime for example robbing an old lady of a hand bag was not flogged because he had Psychological problems that could seem unfair on the other three muggers who were so called normal.
That was a good reason to abollish flogging and corporal punishment in schools.
We cannot get rid of extradition completely but we hope the Government will keep its promise so fewer people from the UK are extradited. Someone I know knows someone who was extradited to the USA for fraud. If an American escapes to the UK in order to avoid extradition then I would say yes extradite him but Gary was not a fugitive from justice.
David
stranger said:McKinnon just seriously embarrassed the Americans who didn't do enough to protect their 'secure' servers and systems without doing any real harm (except to the guy presumably sacked for not securing the systems in the first place).
He did apparently cause a lot of damage financially.[/quote]
Meaning they had to pay to implement the security systems they should have implemented in the first place?
KaloJaro said:McKinnon just seriously embarrassed the Americans who didn't do enough to protect their 'secure' servers and systems without doing any real harm (except to the guy presumably sacked for not securing the systems in the first place).
He did apparently cause a lot of damage financially.
The cases are different. And not every person with Aspergers (or any form of Autism for that matter) should be treated the same. We all have different issues.
ALADDIN said:"But Home Office medical evidence showed that as well as suffering Asperger's syndrome like Ahsan, Mr McKinnon was also very likely to try to kill himself if extradited to the US, where he faced up to 60 years in prison if convicted."
That doesn't say "Ashan was very likely to kill himself" it says "McKinnon was very likely to kill himself"!
Unless you have some evidence that Ashan was likely to kill himself, then I fail to see what your point is.
>>>Gary McKinnon's extradition was not blocked because he has Asperger's, it was blocked >>>>>because he was profoundly depressed and very likely to kill himself before they had chance to >>>>>extradite him.
Exactly the same criteria applys to Talha Ahsan
See,
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/us-anger-at-gary-mckinnon-extradition-block-8214339.html
The family of terror suspect Babar Ahmad, who was extradited alongside radical cleric Abu Hamza and Syed Talha Ahsan earlier this month, accused the Government of double standards.
"Many of our supporters are angry at what appears to be blatant old-fashioned racism under which all British citizens are equal but some are more equal than others," Ahmad's family said in a statement.
But Home Office medical evidence showed that as well as suffering Asperger's syndrome like Ahsan, Mr McKinnon was also very likely to try to kill himself if extradited to the US, where he faced up to 60 years in prison if convicted.
**************************************
Gary McKinnon admitted the crimes, Talha Ahsan denied the crimes.
Talha Ahsan, was arrested for a website, taken down, 4 years 9 months before his arrest. The contraversial treaty was not an offence because the website azzam.com was taken down, days after 9/11.The contraversial extradition treaty means that information can be sent to the USA, secretly. See,
In the USA, the slightest smell of anything remotely terrorist related, is an offence, no evidence required.
David said:Yes I agree that Gary Mckinnon should not have been extradited.
Partly as Gary has Asperger Syndrome the crime was commited on British soil and he would be punished disproportionatly. Gary was not involved in terrorisim.
Why should having Aspeger's have anything to do with it?
Oh, and the crime was not commited "on British soil", it was commited "in cyberspace", and the servers he hacked in to were "on American soil" - the international laws on hacking are explicitely worded in such a way that is the location of the server(s) being hacked that is important, not the location of the hacker, because otherwise a hacker could simply sit in international waters, or on enemy soil, and be entirely untouchable by the laws of the nations they were attacking.
David said:Threatning to commit suicide should be no reason for not extraditing Gary.
It is the only reason not to extradite him - because to have extradited him would have contravened is human rights.
David said:Any body could say to a Judge your honour if you send me to prision I will commit suicide. If I were a judge I would give that prisoner extra for contempt of Court.
It is not simply a case of saying "I'll commit suicide if you send me to prison" it's a case of expert psychologists assessing one to be at an unduly high risk of committing suicide if extradited.
David said:When I was a little boy of nine nearly fifty years ago I threatened to commit suicide while a patient at the Maudsley on the way to swimming.
But you didn't.
And that's the point - trained practitioners can tell the difference between someone who is truly suicidal and someone who is merely saying they'll kill themselves for effect.
Yes I agree that Gary Mckinnon should not have been extradited.
Partly as Gary has Asperger Syndrome the crime was commited on British soil and he would be punished disproportionatly. Gary was not involved in terrorisim.
Without knowing the full facts I think it was probably right to extradite Ahasn.
Threatning to commit suicide should be no reason for not extraditing Gary.
Any body could say to a Judge your honour if you send me to prision I will commit suicide. If I were a judge I would give that prisoner extra for contempt of Court.
When I was a little boy of nine nearly fifty years ago I threatened to commit suicide while a patient at the Maudsley on the way to swimming.
The young male nurse said if you do not shut up I will commit fanticide.
I asked him what it meant.
He said a type of murder.
Well the word is actually infanticide.
David
(Post edited by mod to remove full name - philippab-mod)
Aside from the fact that the crimes they are accused of commiting are of an entirely different order, people with Asperger's, whilst being vulnerable, generally have a well-formed understanding of right and wrong, and simply having Asperger's does not exonorate you of any criminal acts you may have perpetrated.
Gary McKinnon's extradition was not blocked because he has Asperger's, it was blocked because he was profoundly depressed and very likely to kill himself before they had chance to extradite him.
See,
The actions of Babar Ahmad, Talha and Gary McKinnon are quite similar.
Babar Ahmad and Talha Ahsan ran a website between 1997 and 2001, the website was taken down days after 9/11/2001, Babar Ahmad was beaten up, sustaining 73 injuries, getting 60,000 pounds compensation.The information was secretly and contraversially sent to the USA, the reason Talha Ahsan was indicted.
Any crime was not an offence in the UK, now it might be an offence.
Gary McKinnon's extradition was stopped because of human rights. His aspergers would have resulted in a very high suicide risk, similarly applys to Talha Ahsan.
Theresa May did not allow Talha Ahsan to see the same number of psychiatrists as Gary McKinnon.
Thats because he was related to terrorism I'm afraid, McKinnon (as they established) had absolutely no harmful intentions at all. Theres a difference, because left alone and nurtured by extremist friends Ahsan could very well have helped to kill innocent people, without realising its a bad thing, or worse, knowing but going ahead with it anyway. The degree to which he has Aspergers was never explored either (to my knowledge) so he could have been fully aware of what he was doing and is capable of living a nearly normal life without assistance, McKinnon relies heavily on his mother still.
The other factor is America, America is out for retribution for 9/11 and has it out for anyone remotely liked to terrorism, such as that guy who sold a part that -could- be used for a bomb online.
McKinnon just seriously embarrassed the Americans who didn't do enough to protect their 'secure' servers and systems without doing any real harm (except to the guy presumably sacked for not securing the systems in the first place).
Just the way it is in this sort of world sadly.
