Verbal communication and actions are over rated.
For example, for the past 12 months while I’ve been in burnout, I haven’t heard from hardly any of my friends and barely any of my family, and I’ve got a lot of friends and family, so this isn’t usual.
This has been a true god send to me. Most of them don’t even know yet that I’m autistic and they certainly don’t know I’ve been in a burnout, they have no idea.
However, since I’ve started to feel better, I’ve had a steady but manageable (so far) stream of friends contacting me. Inviting me out for lunch, to go for a walk, to go nordic walking, cycling, one friend who knows I would love to go to Marrakesh has paid for and booked a holiday there for us in June, the same friend has also booked a hotel for us next week so we can go to listen to her favourite band who are coming over from America. None of her friends like the band so they won’t go but she knows I’d go to the end of the world for her if needs be so although I don’t like going to listen to bands, I’m happy to go with her because I know how important it is to her and she’s insisted that she pay for that as well. We might not see each other or have any kind of contact for months and months on end but she knows she can rely on me to the degree that if i’m able to help or be there for her in any way, I will be. She doesn’t have the same level of confidence in the friends she hangs out with all the time.
I have other invites coming in as well, as well as friends popping up to simply say hi, how are you. I don’t keep in regular verbal or physical contact with my friends or family but we are in touch constantly by something much stronger than our words and actions. They didn’t know that I need their friendships right now, that their friendships are what will help me on my next leg of the journey. I’ve decided to go back to India and Bali and some other countries so I’m going to be away for a while this time, maybe a few years, maybe forever, who knows, so it’s great that I get to see some of my friends before I go. And no matter where I am in the world, at least one of my family or friends (who are my family) will come and visit me. They have been to Australia, Bali, India, the Isle of Man, all the places I’ve lived in the UK, wherever I go or wherever I am my friends keep in touch with me some how. I’ve even had letters and cards arrive at remote ashrams I’ve been at in India ~ I wouldn’t even know you could do that!
I don’t keep in touch with them so much but they never let me out of their hearts and visa versa. They all encourage and support me no matter what I do. My dad is currently encouraging me to walk the Pacific Crest Trail, another friend bought me the book with the route etc and I just know that whether I want them to or not, at least one of them will come and see me while I’m walking the trail and either walk a bit of the trail with me or for me to have a little stop off with them. I know when my sister is hurt and in which part of her body and visa versa and she’s the least ‘spiritual’ person you could ever come across.
This is a few days later now and I have to admit that the messages from friends and family is starting to become a little overwhelming for me now. I’ll handle it. But what I’m saying is, if I had to rely on verbal communication, I don’t think I’d have any friends at all, but I speak to them in my language. They don’t use this language with other people and they have no idea really how it works with me but it does and I’m overflowing with gratitude at the love and friendship that’s pouring my way now, now that I’m ready to receive it.
Verbal communication hurts my head, sign language is a bit better but I much prefer to communicate in a non verbal, none sign language way. That way I don’t have to get past all your understandings and you beyond mine before we reach some level of mutual understanding.
This is why I love silent retreats and the level of friendships you form there go way deeper than the ones you make when you are verbally communicating or communicating through body language.
I love it when I go mute but that doesn’t happen very often so I have to accept that I was given the ability to speak for some reason. I have surrendered to this now so now I will be guided in whatever way I need to be and if it means using my voice, so be it. I don’t hate it like I used to. I accept I can speak and now I’m not fighting it I guess I’ll soon find out why I can. I still find verbal/body language to be a very crude and harsh form of communication though.
Sounds like things are really improving for you and it is good that people are showing such a genuine interest in you as well as caring for your well-being and needs. The fact that you have some unwritten agreement among you and your friends on how best is to communicate is wonderful. I am still trying to work on that one, but the fact that you have accomplished this brings me hope. Verbal/body language is overrated and unfortunately society revolves around it, but I still believe there is a way that NT and ND people can communicate between each other better than we do currently. Understanding and education will help with this over time.
I'm glad that things are improving for you and you are feeling better than when we last spoke. :)
Thank you Starbuck, I appreciate that. I feel so loved and cared for right now and with every message I get I feel so fortunate. I know I’m there for my friends and I don’t really ask for help, I didn’t know how to, but this feels like they are paying me back 100% plus more ~ not that I ever put a price on what I give.
And yes, I 100% agree with you. I absolutely believe there’s a way we can communicate better with nt’s. Most of my friends are nt’s and the diagnosis and the time spent in this burnout have taught me that I need to learn about others and understand them as much as I want them to understand me, as far as they can. My support worker is helping me with that as well and I’m finding ways to communicate with people that doesn’t result in arguments and me getting annoyed with them. I also see how even my brother in law, who I thought for all these years was out to wind me up, wasn’t/isn’t. I thought he was the chief winder upper and he wasn’t at all.
I’m coming to understand that my autistic traits won’t dissapear just because I have awareness of them but that I can do things to minimise meltdowns etc. For example, I might spent time with people but maybe make the visit a bit shorter and rest afterwards.
Having all that time alone, not even having to get out of bed or wash and change everyday etc has helped me tremendously as well as having the support from people on this site. I’ve still got a long way to go, my support worker keeps reminding me that I’ve got further to go than I’d like to think and that we have to keep on working the baby steps, because they are actually working. But I’m out of the darkest stage and I can see the light and that’s good enough for me.
I think we will all find our way to the light if that’s what we’re aiming for, however we get there. You’re often in my thoughts Starbuck because I know we were at a similar stage so I’m glad that my experience is giving you hope. It’s like it all just happened all of a sudden but as we know I put a lot of effort in to getting me where I am today but it worked. I’ve stopped taking the anti depressants but they were a huge huge help. I don’t think I could have got this far without them. I’m very grateful to them.
With the communication thing, I think it’s all about have total confidence in yourself. Not in who you present to the world, that’s superficial, but in that thing, whatever it is that got us this far. I’ve always had a strong connection to it, all my life, although I didn’t understand it like I do now, or I didn’t understand that others weren’t like me. It’s like when you’re so connected to that thing inside of you that is beyond thoughts and ideas, it emenates out and meets other people. It’s like, I knew I needed this period of total solitude. I knew that and had so much confidence in it, it’s like my friends responded and supported me by not contacting me in all that time. If they had been contacting me I would have been freaking out, I wouldn’t have been able to handle it. I came off all social media, unsubscribed to all email lists and started blocking them. This took me nearly a year but I achieved it so now I’m not getting emails. I just reduced my life down to nothing, basically. I rarely even get mail coming through the door now. In the past year I’ve hardly ate and when I did, it was usually chocolate yet my blood results are better than they’ve ever been. My vitamin D levels are the highest my doctor said that he’s ever seen. He said in fact, he’s never tested anybody who wasn’t deficient. And I know this is true after working with consultants and politicians in the Isle of Man to get the government to supplement everyone as a matter of course. I have never not been aneamic. Me, my mum, sister and niece are all aneamic. We take iron tablets now and again if it goes too low and we can rarely give blood, but this time, my levels were normal. I have provided my body with little nutrition, no sun light, hardly any fresh air, I have barely moved, I even have bed soars, I haven’t kept my hydration levels up, I have been frequently dehydrated, living on solpeideine to take the pain away because even though I knew a drink of water would do that, I couldn’t drink. Even if I had had to live on the streets, there was nothing that was coming between me and my burnout. Meaning I was shutting the whole world out. I knew it would work even though all those around me were worried, trying to throw labels at me, eating disorder, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, depression, anxiety, agoraphobia. I was none of those things. I presented as those things but that was a false appearance. I was simply exhausted. My first shut down of this proportion was when I was 18 months old and they put me in an isolation ward at the hospital for kids with learning difficulties, for 3 weeks, all by myself with only nurses going in to feed me. And it worked. I began to function again. And as many of us found out, receiving the diagnosis is not only a cause of celebration with the answers to so many questions, asked and unasked, it also comes with loss, grief, devastation, fear for the future and lots of other things. In the end I also stopped going to the job centre. I just told them I’m not going in any more, it’s not helping me, I need to not leave my house at all. They didn’t sanction me and they’re making it so I don’t have to go in any more. When I need that time for total shut down, I am so committed to getting that time that I will not accept anything less but I also don’t put any conditions on it. If it meant living on the streets and eating out of bins I would have done it. And I think when you’re that committed to giving yourself what you need, everyone around you seems to cooperate without you having to verbalise it. I was too tired for that. And now I’m coming out of it with a clearer mind and heart. The effort was all worth it.
Much love to you X
BlueRay said: In the end I also stopped going to the job centre. I just told them I’m not going in any more, it’s not helping me, I need to not leave my house at all. They didn’t sanction me and they’re making it so I don’t have to go in any more. When I need that time for total shut down, I am so committed to getting that time that I will not accept anything less but I also don’t put any conditions on it. If it meant living on the streets and eating out of bins I would have done it. And I think when you’re that committed to giving yourself what you need, everyone around you seems to cooperate without you having to verbalise it.
Golly! You really must walk an exalted path, BlueRay. How come you weren't sanctioned? When I failed my ESA assessment, following my suicidal breakdown, they stopped all of my benefits dead. I had nothing to pay rent or anything. I nearly went under. I appealed, so everything was reinstated - but then I had to go through all the stress of the appeal, and then later a tribunal. All of it nearly finished me off. I count myself lucky that it didn't, because it's finished off many thousands of other people. When the DWP were finally forced to reveal the figures on sanctions deaths, it was shown that over a two-year period between 2012 and 2014, 2,380 people on ESA died within a fortnight of being told they'd been deemed fit for work and would lose the benefit. An horrific proportion were suicides. But you're saying you simply went to the Job Centre and said 'I'm not coming in any more because it's not helping me', and they just happily went along with it? Even though we hear countless stories all the time of people having JSA sanctions simply because they were half an hour late turning up to sign on, or didn't go because they were ill. They clearly saw how committed you were to your shutdown, I suppose. I also find it remarkable how light you make of living on the streets and eating out of bins - as if it's a valid and wonderful life experience. Who are all these people, too, who magically co-operate when that happens? All these friends you have?
In terms of the tulip. You call it the ‘principles of nature’ - another word for that could be law. This is what I mean by law.
Laws aren’t the natural processes ~ this is where I get confused. Let me try to understand ...
Electricity works through the laws of electricity - would you agree? If those laws aren’t followed, someone could at best not get any electricity and at worst they could electrocute themselves. You can’t play around with these laws. You can’t say I’ll follow them one day and not the next. If you want to have the benefits of electricity, such as light, you have to follow the laws.
Like wise, the tulip seed follows the laws of its nature and becomes a fully grown tulip. When all the ingredients are there, soil, water, sun, they will work together along the law of nature to enable the seed to reach its end stage, before it whither and dies.
I have no clue what that means - that the proof of existential processes do not govern existence. I can’t make any sense of it. Sorry.
I have no idea what you mean by mistaking laws for principles.
Are you saying all laws are made by man? If so, we have a different understanding of what a law is. I know there are man made laws, I don’t pay them much attention, but I know they’re there and I work with them in my work when I work for the government. But they aren’t the only laws and they’re certainly not the laws that I live by.
I live by the laws of know thyself, love thy neighbour, unity, love, the law of cause and effect, those kinds of laws, none of which were made by man. Man didn’t make the law of electricity but he discovered it and made use of it but he didn’t make it. I now drive within speed limits and follows the laws of the road to a greater degree, things like that. I recognise them but they don’t rule my life.
DeepthoughtOh absolutely, I love human laws. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not belittling them in anyway. They are a necessity because currently, most people don’t think for themselves and until they do, we absolutely need human laws.
Like you, they have been helpful to me in so many ways and were key to me getting my clients what they needed when working as a social worker. So I’m not putting them down in anyway and it’s fun to watch as they get more severe as people are beginning to learn how to think for themselves. But it doesn’t matter how severe they get, they will eventually dissolve to the degree that people start to think for themselves and no longer allow themselves to be controlled by them, they will lose their purpose.
BlueRay said:I never went to hostels. I didn’t feel safe in them, I felt safer on the streets
Interesting statement, being that you 'never' went to hostels ~ yet you did not feel safe 'in' them?
Nice example of Autistic Black and White Thinking ~ i.e, the first part of the sentence that you 'never' went to hostels; is contradicted by the second part that you did not feel safe 'in' them.
Is it perhaps that you did not 'use' hostels because of not feeling safe when you had been in them as a visitor, or that you never actually went to one because of not feeling comfortable about using them?
In my case, I seriously needed to experience the individuality of me singularly and freely, and using hostels involved rules and collective conformity with others. Being nomadic for me meant that there was no need or imperative to be with others, nor to interact with them.
I lined up a couple of times to go and sleep there but the talk from the others who were lining up, put me off and I had a system of sleeping in the day and walking the streets at night, which I decided I would stick to. That felt safer to me and I had some good places to sleep in the day, such as pubs and I think I was more visible this way, meaning people realised I was homeless and so they would feed me, let me get a shower at their house etc. So I’ve been in hostels as a visitor (my auntie used to work in one) and in other capacities but as for me sleeping in one, my preferred method was to walk the streets at night and that just felt like a better option to me. Plus I didn’t want to line up every night at a certain time just to get in.
Oh yeah, my support worker is working with me to hammer that word ‘never’ out of me. It was all going well until last Friday then I screamed ‘I’m NEVER going back to my autism group and I’m NEVER going back on the autism site! Lol!
I am such a typical text book case aspie it’s untrue, but I love it although I have been doing much better since minimising my use of the word ‘never’. My black and white thinking is getting better by the day as well.
I’ve always been a nomad and I think I always will be. I took a few years out because my son (little weirdo! Lol) wanted to go to school!!!! It didn’t matter what I tried to do to convince him that I’m sure he’d have more fun coming with me, he wanted to go so he started when he was 6. I thought he might go for a while then get bored of it but he didn’t get fed up till the last year. He was all set to get high grades and go to uni and by that time came he’d had enough ~ at last, I thought, allauya!
BlueRay said:Yeah, I learned some huge lessons, not least dissolving the habit of running away.
The old freeze, flight or flight behaviourisms teach much about personal integrity, and as much as one turns tail and runs from something, the more headlong one runs into that something. Everything comes from source and everything goes back to source.
BlueRay said:It’s been like a baptism of fire ~ I think! Lol! I don’t really understand what that means but it feels right although I could be totally wrong.
A baptism of fire burns away the darkness (or polarisation) of the soul, to have then reborn the light of one's spiritual sole, the all seeing I of enlightenment, intuition and prophecy, and vitalising the seven selves and living as such in harmony as much in heaven as upon earth.
But basically most take it too mean something along the lines of grinding off ones rough edges, and finishing off one's faceted surfaces (or maskings) by way of really hard work. A soldiers first battle, a doctor or nurses first medical emergency and so on and so fourth.
BlueRay said:Thanks for the info on the types.
Glad to have been of some service. :-)
BlueRay said:I can talk to all types but sometimes I just want to talk as me.
Well remove the maskings of verbal ignorance, reveal the architectures of spoken wisdom, and embody in this way more also universal love.
BlueRay said:I don’t expect anybody to understand me and neither do I particularly want to but it was fun while it lasted, talking my language.
You do not expect others to understand you, nor do you want particularly to understand yourself either (?) ~ or else you are not particularly concerned with being understood?
Considering that Language is ~ 'the method of human communication, either spoken or written, consisting of the use of words in a structured and conventional way' ~ and is first 'shared' in terms of mimicking speech (mum and dad etc) and then shared again in terms of speaking them with others (family and friends etc), rather than as being individually owned, i.e. your language.
It appears more that you have 'needed' to write according to your choice of and your familiarity with using words, as a process of therapeutic release and individuation ~ rather than so much at first for an interest in the structural conventions (i.e. laws) of language, as used and recognised more generally, or specifically, by others. Yet we have been discussing the latter concern none the less and all more at least so far, and rapture of raptures using spiritual philosophy too (with philosophy meaning a comprehensive understanding and understanding being experiential knowledge). My favourite flavour ~ thank you, very much appreciated. :-)
Thank you and yes, I have definitely had a baptism of fire, according to your description.
When I was talking freely (the posts that attracted all the flack), I wasn’t looking for understanding from anybody else. When I wrote those posts, they were for me, to help me understand me. I was talking out loud, or rather writing my thoughts as they were happening and they had the desired affect. Although my posts obviously pressed a few buttons in others, they helped me get clear about me and that was the sole purpose of them.
I am able to communicate well with all people at all different levels of consciousness and awareness, it is my strong point in my work as a social worker and working with people with so called severe mental health needs but my recent writings were for me. That’s why I said I wasn’t looking for understand from others, it didn’t matter if nobody read what I wrote, they were for me and they helped me considerably.
I have however, thoroughly enjoyed our conversations so yes, thank you, it’s been a real pleasure.
BlueRay said:I’ll put your name at the beginning so you are less likely to miss the comments because this is really interesting. I don’t understand what you’re saying, but I’m going to do my best. And maybe after a bit of toing and froing I might gain more understanding.
You have already the understanding ~ it's just the comprehension that we all need and eventually get one way or another with or without teacher as student and student as teacher, and all that sort of thing involving the meaning of absolute being as infinitely becoming ~ God through Goddess or energy through matter.
BlueRay said:I don’t recognise societal laws, they have no interest to me. So when I talk about laws, I’m talking universal laws, but the description remains accurate.
Laws as previously discussed are recorded descriptions of particular processes that occur in material nature, for the sake of specialised fields of reference or information.
Universal law by definition includes every law of societal law also, and societal law is used for social reference when ignorance prevails.
Laws are not required whilst universal wisdom is as love embodied or as energy equally manifest. Look and listen for instance to all that surrounds you and know that laws are not involved but the principles of fluid dynamics and fixed mechanics of nature as energised forces are.
BlueRay said:Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced, through social or governmental institutions, to regulate behaviour. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state.
BlueRay said:The [natural] laws, is a system of unbreakabke rules that were created ... to regulate behaviour.
The diamagnetic and electromagnetic forces of nature organise the geometric progressions of energy via crystal-mineral formations of matter, that regulate fluid and fixed facilitations such as clouds and snow, cerebrospinal fluid and bones, lava and rock and every thing else above and below you.
BlueRay said:These laws aren’t enforced, people have free will to follow the laws or not.
These forces are emergent energy as being light, and convergent matter as being dark, and people can choose between the manifestation of light inside of them, and the dark outside of them.
BlueRay said:They are not judged for this in anyway.
Judgement only applies to intentions to do things or not, during the course of doing things and after having done things.
BlueRay said:The laws are a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state ~ the state being the creater of the laws, for ease of conversation let’s call that god ~ unless you have any negative connotations attached to that word?
The forces of light and dark govern and balance individual and collective harmonisation such as from atoms to galaxies ~ through the absolute being as infinitely becomes. For the ease of conversation let's not call it "god" because I might be referring to the spirit of me, or the spirit of you or any other spirit in anything else that is not wholly the absolute being of infinite becoming. But "God" with an upper case 'G' will do when referring to the Allparent or All-being of All-becoming ~ although some state "GOD" is the better option, being that there is the heavenly assembly of Gods, and the earthly assemblies of gods. Some use the term "angel" regarding human beings rather than god to save spoken confusions.
BlueRay said:So for example, love thy neighbour as yourself. That is a law. If you follow this law you will experience bliss, freedom and happiness ~ provided you ‘know thyself’. If you don’t, you will experience any and all of frustration, jealousy, envy, hatred etc etc.
Bliss and agony, freedom and restriction and happiness and sadness are all polar opposites resulting in the other, whilst developing a relationship with the love of the spirit in heart, soul and mind ~ balances out and compensates for the differences between those of ourselves, and thereby others as well in terms of harmonic resonance.
Frustration ~ feeling distressed about an inability to change or achieve something ~ is a regulum of human physiological experience, but it need not remain as a prolonged psychological issue. Tensions in the body for instance frustrate free movement, such as when we are physically tired, sick or injured, hence the need to care for ourselves, and better moderate our actions.
Envy ~ feeling deprived of what someone else enjoys having, and jealousy ~ feeling hostile toward a rival or someone enjoying an advantage ~ these are socially fostered and personally adopted behaviourisms from childhood, involving genetic tendencies also, that may be better moderated, diminished or even wholly relinquished.
Hatred is another part of the human experiential regulum ~ such as hating the smell or taste of particular type of food, drink or medicie, and most people think they hate particular people or groups of people or whatever else, but this is actually as such loathing, which may be better managed or relinquished also.
BlueRay said:Nobody will ‘punish’ you if you don’t live by this law, you won’t be judged, but you will not experience the constant bliss, freedom and happiness it gives you in return.
Already and just covered.
BlueRay said:If you don’t follow it, you will simply reap what you sow. You will plant the seed (the cause, the harmful thoughts) and you will experience the effects of those thoughts.
Well leading a life embodying at one extent love as wisdom, or following a life embodying lusts (desires) as ignorance at the other extent ~ involves sowing what one will reap as such one way or another either way, and this is so regardless of what anyone does in the neutral, positive or negative sense.
BlueRay said:It’s a simple law but most people chose to ignore it and as such, they do not experience the freedom.
Everyone experiences freedom, whether they are aware of it or they want it or not, only most people are fearful of it and individuality also, as they need instead the stimulation of or the distraction from themselves by way of regular interactions with others collectively. Most people cannot function independently as they are followers, supporters or leaders of groups genetically to the core, and only a few can go and do the way of the wilderness.
BlueRay said:Humans create their own laws. They are not based on love and freedom, they are based on things like control, greed, power etc and as such, I do not recognise them.
The law as system of rules and regulations is not based on things like control, greed and power, the tidiest description aside from the "bind" ( as I'd use unite) that I most identify with so far is:
LAW. Laws are rules that bind all people living in a community. Laws protect our general safety, and ensure our rights as >subjects or< citizens against abuses by other people, by organizations, and by the government itself. We have laws to help provide for our general safety.
So it is more that controlling, greedy and power hunger people use the law as they do more negatively, and that people who have a healthy sense of community and society use the law as they do more positively. The law is neutral.
I think rather than law, you are considering more the subject matter of morals and ethics ~ with morals being what individual's believe to be right and wrong, and ethics being societal codes of conduct in social and professional environments.
In respect of Law, do other than to as the expression goes "Throw the baby out with the bathwater" perhaps?
BlueRay said:I live by the law of love and as it continues to be proven in my life, this law is far greater than any human man made law so I have no reason to recognise or abide by man made laws.
I think more that you live by the spirit or power of love, which is harmonic rather than as you describe being selective or exclusive, for as such you are not describing love, but more passions and desires to rebel against some aspects of social conformity and societal values.
Thus you have become in writing a law unto yourself, rejecting then also the divinely inspired fundamental laws made by Humans as records for reference, guidance and as above described and quoted regarding safety from harm, and recourse when harm is being or has been done.
Remember that many types of people read these threads and posts, and through which some find reason to live by what is written. Remember also that T1's Follow, T2s Support and T3s Lead more or less by habit what most triggers or stimulates them to do so.
The main problem is setting standards and reasons for rebellion against the law firstly devalues it, and secondly gives further stimulus for others to reject and ignore what it stands for also.
Consider for example from the NIV1984 Bible version of the first book of Peter chapter 2, verses 13 through to 16 as follows:
13.) Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14.) or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
15.) For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
BlueRay said:I have no idea what you mean by mistaking laws for principles.
Well the manifest forces or events of nature come before scientists recognise and record them as laws, with written laws then being secondary to the principle forces or events of nature.
BlueRay said:Are you saying all laws are made by man?
Yes, very much indeed, I am stating that all laws are man made or recorded and verified as being constant states of affairs in nature, or requisite states of affairs in society.
BlueRay said:If so, we have a different understanding of what a law is.
You are mistaking the man made descriptive laws of nature for the actual forces or events of nature.
BlueRay said:I know there are man made laws, I don’t pay them much attention, but I know they’re there and I work with them in my work when I work for the government. But they aren’t the only laws and they’re certainly not the laws that I live by.
We live by the forces of nature and the laws of humanity describing them.
BlueRay said:I live by the laws of know thyself, love thy neighbour, unity, love, the law of cause and effect, those kinds of laws, none of which were made by man. Man didn’t make the law of electricity but he discovered it and made use of it but he didn’t make it. I now drive within speed limits and follows the laws of the road to a greater degree, things like that. I recognise them but they don’t rule my life.
Human laws are not meant to rule your life, that is your responsibility.
BlueRay said:Oh absolutely, I love human laws. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not belittling them in anyway. They are a necessity because currently, most people don’t think for themselves and until they do, we absolutely need human laws.
I am not getting you wrong ~ as I know where you are coming from, it is just that your writing style involves absolutes in the positive and negative senses. As for instance you have in different post shifted from Child ego states of mind to Parental ego states ~ where you have been stating like many do quite opposite and thus contradictory points of view at different stages.
My favourite example of me being hypocritical was as a child when I shouted at the very top of my voice that I was not shouting. I did so 'so' loudly enough I actually managed to hear myself ~ which fascinated me intensely. This was one of the many reasons that led to me get into Transactional Analysis (or TA) particularly, and psychology in general.
Now the basic model for TA is called the PAC model, as follows:
P = Parent ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings copied from parents or parent figures
A = Adult ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings that are direct responses for the here-and-now
C = Child ego-states ~ behaviours, thoughts and feelings that are replayed from childhood
Just as very basic guide, in that Adult ego-states deal with the here now ~ Child ego-states tend to include 'always' statements, and Parent ego-states tend to include 'never' statements, although of course there are cross overs.
Autistic Black and White Thinking involves Child ego-states getting contradicted by Parent ego-states, and vice-versa, rather than being mediated and reasonably integrated by the Adult ego-states ~ as need to be developed to become more functionally viable.
Simply learning to recognise the difference between being in Child or Parent states of mind ~ goes a long way to developing the Adult ego states.
BlueRay said:Like you, they have been helpful to me in so many ways and were key to me getting my clients what they needed when working as a social worker. So I’m not putting them down in anyway and it’s fun to watch as they get more severe as people are beginning to learn how to think for themselves.
So when you state that, "I am not putting [laws] down in any way" [P] you contradict yourself with, "its fun to watch as they get more severe" [C] which puts laws down as being severe. Then comes as follows:
BlueRay said:But it doesn’t matter how severe they get, they will eventually dissolve to the degree that people start to think for themselves and no longer allow themselves to be controlled by them, they will lose their purpose.
So in the here and now sense you write about not putting laws down in any way, then describe their severity and your hope they will become useless. Laws are not just about controlling people, for they also guide us as to how things are done for the greater good.
Ok, I see what’s happening now. We effectively live in two different worlds and we are therefore talking two different languages.
I understand what you’re saying regarding child/parent ego etc. We have a similar understanding in metaphysics but it is a deeper understanding to what you describe.
Depending on who I work with, I might use a more psychological approach, as you described, to help the client understand their situation, in the beginning at least. But always metaphysical principles, which work along natural laws, will underly everything I do with them.
For example, I work with the law of cause and effect which might at first (the cause) appear in the physical realm but I will get to the real cause.
For example, if Jo said something really unkind and hurtful to John which resulted in John being upset. John might think that Jo is the cause of his upset. But that’s not true. Jo has no power to cause upset in John.
The upset is in John and was triggered by what Jo said. If this root cause is not addressed and dissolved, John will continue to meet people in his life who upset him.
Even if he were to deal with the perceived cause of the upset, i.e. he made it up with Jo etc, he understood why Jo said what he said etc and he forgives him. A similar situation would reoccur in his life because he hasn’t dealt with the root cause.
If man made laws are made to protect people, why aren’t they working? And if man knew himself, loved himself and loved his neighbour as himself, who would he need to be protected from?
BlueRay said:Ok, I see what’s happening now. We effectively live in two different worlds and we are therefore talking two different languages.
Not quite but almost. We effectively live on the same world in two different bodies, and are both writing in English. You write abstractly using displaced concrete terms more generally, and I more generally use concretely applied terms.
Displaced concrete terms above involve describing 'talking' when we are 'writing', and living in different 'worlds' rather than in different 'bodies'.
Writing abstractly involves imagining and as above describing separate worlds and different languages ~ in your mind, rather than concretely describing being in different locations on this same planet using this same language.
If we were though talking with one another ~ we would be speaking with different 'dialects' or 'accents' (tomayto~tomahto or potayto~patahto sort of thing). Also, we are living on so very many different versions of this one same world, and sensing several more than the vast majority do - what with the sparticles, orbs, hazes and light-frequency wavelengths and all that.
BlueRay said:I understand what you’re saying regarding child/parent ego etc. We have a similar understanding in metaphysics but it is a deeper understanding to what you describe.
The Parent, Adult and Child (PAC) ego-state model is the basic introduction model for TA. In metaphysical terms we also have the model of consciousness, experience and awareness, involving the Receptive, Protective and Projective aspects of our experiential embodiments, as sensibilities, personalities or selves.
BlueRay said:Depending on who I work with, I might use a more psychological approach, as you described, to help the client understand their situation, in the beginning at least. But always metaphysical principles, which work along natural laws, will underly everything I do with them.
Metaphysicists work with the principles of nature, as which gave rise to the laws of the land, as are recorded for the people of that land, when ignorance prevails on certain matters.
BlueRay said:For example, I work with the law of cause and effect which might at first (the cause) appear in the physical realm but I will get to the real cause.
So with the law of cause and effect stating that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, you use that statement as a theme for your work.
BlueRay said:For example, if Jo said something really unkind and hurtful to John which resulted in John being upset.
So ~ Jo's unkind and hurtful wording 'caused' the effect of John being upset.
BlueRay said:John might think that Jo is the cause of his upset.
Well in the given instance there is 'a' direct link between what Jo said and what John felt, so not an unreasonable assumption on John's part in the given circumstance.
BlueRay said:But that’s not true. Jo has no power to cause upset in John.
Jo did though have the power to cause John to be upset ~ given that 'Jo's unkind and hurtful wording 'caused' the 'effect' of John being upset.'
BlueRay said:The upset is in John and was triggered by what Jo said.
Given that in the given context as described:
Power: 'the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way'
Upset: 'make (someone) unhappy, disappointed, or worried'
'Caused: make (something, especially something bad) happen'
Triggered: 'caused by particular action, process, or situation.'
If then as you describe Jo has no power to upset John ~ on account that what Jo said was a trigger, you have stated a contradiction in terms; as something 'triggered' is something 'caused' ~ as an 'effect' ~ rather than Jo not having the power to do so, as you stated.
I think that what you actually mean, is that possibly Jo need not have power over John.
BlueRay said:If this root cause is not addressed and dissolved, John will continue to meet people in his life who upset him.
When it comes to addressing and 'dissolving' the root cause or primary issue, dissolving it is not really a befitting term. The sensitivity or issue involves aspects of John's of psychological and physiological anatomy, i.e. ego-states or experiential fragments, which need 'resolving', in the sense of discovering or more rediscovering, the original need or purpose.
It is perhaps better to state that:
If this root cause is not addressed and resolved ~ John may continue to meet people in his life who upset him.
I changed the 'will' to 'may' in that although there is likelihood of John's behavioural pattern repeating with others ~ as you state; there are also 'pattern burn-outs' or 'habituated extinctions', as the capacity to keep going with the behavioural pattern gets worn or burnt out. Particular people as such can instead meet others who make them feel good in and about themselves.
Alternatively ~ the pattern does not get burnt out, but healed out by meeting people who have the opposite inclination to Jo saying unkind and hurtful things, such as Frank who says helpful and encouraging things.
BlueRay said:Even if he were to deal with the perceived cause of the upset, i.e. he made it up with Jo etc, he understood why Jo said what he said etc and he forgives him. A similar situation would reoccur in his life because he hasn’t dealt with the root cause.
Well the root cause could involve perhaps Negative Adaption Child ego-states, for John's adaptation at school could of been for instance to put up with and shut up about being insulted or bullied, rather than learning how to deal with it appropriately. The only release for John maybe was just to get upset about it.
Basically a Child ego-state adaptation is 'negative' in that it does 'not' fulfil the developmental need, but opposes it.
Another consideration, regarding John making up with Jo, could involve Negative Nurturing Parent ego-states, where John is supportive to Jo's plight, i.e. bad week at work, money worries or whatever else ~ and John forgives all, but the long term problem does not as such get resolved.
BlueRay said:If man made laws are made to protect people, why aren’t they working?
With laws being systems of written rules and regulations, it is not a question of why laws aren't protecting people, but why they not being respected and carried out by people. Lack of wisdom and or experience may be the simplest answer perhaps?
BlueRay said:And if man knew himself, loved himself and loved his neighbour as himself, who would he need to be protected from?
Laws as codes of conduct are not just about protection, they are more instructions on how things are done for the greater good, in which ever circumstances, whether they be foreseen, or unforeseen.