Think happier thoughts

So inspiring. I get so cross with myself when I've wasted time thinking about sad things and can't distract myself. Sounds like a good strategy. 

But Socrates is also remembered in history.

"I agree that the ASD life can cause mental illness, but I don't agree that that necessitates special treatment for that illness. People on the spectrum may benefit from guidance on how to get along with people, to get rid of some of the problems which lead to illness, but that is a separate issue. I believe children get this help.W

Sorry but I have to disagree with you and the person you are agreeing with.  It's not the "autistic life" which causes mental illness.  it's people's attitudes towards our condition and the way they interact with us.  It's the environment that can make or brake a person on the spectrum.  Carry on down the line of thinking you've just proposed in your quote; and you'll end up suicidal; I'm assuming you are on the spectrum.

"Not all of our depression and anxiety comes from the ASD but a significant number of us get into depression because of our ASD. The thinking style of ASD people does predispose us to getting trapped in bad thoughts."

Having read this quote of yours my understanding is then anxiety is part of ASD due to the "thinking style of ASD" as you put it.  There is no external source of anxiety for people on the autism spectrum; but this sounds wrong and it seems to me you've just contradicted yourself in your own quote.  It is also the type of quote we would be fed by a cop out health professional/non-health professional.

I think you've contradicted yourself because; on the one hand you are acknowledging external sources of anxiety for people on the autism spectrum like Narcissistic Abuse, but on the other hand; you are saying we are predisposed to this anxiety due to our "thinking style".

So for example if a person on the autism spectrum was being Narcisistically abused;  would they be imagining things because of their thinking style???  With that type of thinking the person on the autism spectrum would be labelled as "mentally ill"!!!  With their actual problems not effectively addressed!!!

"Autism describes a complex of interrelated and interacting difficulties. Despite a vast published resource on autism, there still isn't much out there that gets down to the detailed "nuts and bolts" of how autism impacts on daily lives. There is still a lot that is unknown."

This is because all the information out there on autism is misinformation.  any useful information is still in the research stages.

"It is just not the case. It is a very complicated condition. As of this time it isn't curable. There's no magic wand." 

And it is just that "a very complicated condition" that's why it's classed as a disability not an "illness" and rightly so.

Sorry the human element comes first other humans need to treat us equally not sub human; other humans need to celebrate neurodiversity and not find "cures" for it.  the Autism comes second; because this is our disability; this needs to be accepted by neurotypicals it's the first step in helping the people on the Autism Spectrum and preventing; mental illness from developing in people on the Autism Spectrum in the first place.  We have enough on our plates coping with the disability and the social difficulties that come with it; we don't need toxic neurotypicals inducing mental illness;  in us through their poor attitudes towards our disability.  This then puts mental illness third and last on the list of priorities.  It is only put first or encouraged to be put first by Mental Health professionals struggling to keep their jobs.

They aren't "cured" because ASD is not a disease!  it's high time society stopped treating it as such.

The very definition of disease: it has of have a pathogen to be the cause.

ASD does not have a pathogen or any other obvious underlying cause; except through nature there may be a genetic link; affecting communication parts of the brain leading to difficulty in social interaction; therefore it is not an illness/disease but a disability with a fundamental root in childhood brain development which; carries on right through adulthood.

to all those ignorant people and websites out there STOP calling ASD an "illness"; STOP treating it as an illness!!!

I think you have valid point but I would do research first; especially a round NLP because a lot of mainstream psychologists lost faith in it back in the 1960's and 70's due to lack of scientific evidence; to back up claims and theories it actually works with a positive/desirable outcome.  I think there were concerns about the long term effects of NLP on the mind itself as well. I personally would be concerned if NLP was used on me or my children.  As far as i'm concerned it boarders on mind control.

I love to debate too. It is something I did a lot in my youth but seldom find people these days who want to debate issues of any sort.

It goes with the territory that we don't always express our ideas well, or understand other people. That is the true value of debate, we reach a point of understanding and oppinions get morphed in the process. Or sometimes, we can just agree to differ.

Incidentally, I have bought Valerie Gs book Living well on the spectrum. Looks promising, thanks for the suggestion.

I love debate like this. I'm sorry if I don't always make points well and if I don't understand to begin with.

en.wikipedia.org/.../Socratic_method

Of course, old Socrates was probably on the spectrum as his debating style is to continually question and challenge. His challenging behaviour is, as I understand it, what lead him to being put to death!

I think we have arrived at a point of agreement from our different directions.

I am learning a lot about asd, books are all very well, but discusion develops that knowledgeinto something useable.

Thanks to all who took part.

It isn't just the ASD life that causes mental illness - my understanding is that we are programmed to be sensitive and susceptible to bad thinking. The ASD life is often chaotic and alarming because we make poor, or odd, decisions that come back on us because the non-autistic world doesn't cope with this and punishes us.

You absolutely have one of the keys to recovery, you have to admit the tiniest possibility that there might be a light at the end of the tunnel and it might not be an oncoming train but instead it might be daylight. You have to admit that it is worth striving towards the light and out of the darkness.

To me, the special case gives a special chance of escape. if we pick apart the ASD mind then we have an additional method of understanding why we get into a pickle and it gives us a very particular escape route. It seems better to me that I understand that I have a brain that is "wired differently" rather than accepting the slightly random and arbitrary thought that my brain is just bad and just thinks bad thoughts.

I agree that the asd life can cause mental illness, but I don't agree that that necessitates special treatment for that illness. People on the spectrum may benefit from guidance on how to get along with people, to get rid of some of the problems which lead to illness, but that is a separate issue. I believe children get this help.

I have not read anything about CBT, so my knowledge comes entirely from you. However, what you descibe sounds very much like what I was told. Challenge negative thinking and try and see life from another point of view. I expect there is much more to it than that, but that is the gist I am getting.

So what is significantly different about my approach? I had to stop thinking that there was no way out of my miserable existance. I had to stop believing that I was some sort of bad person because no one appeared to like me at work. That was my motorway to nowhere. I shouted STOP, to put an end to the negativity, but once you have stopped thinking that way, you have to imediately fill the thought space with something better. Every time you slip into the old bad ways of thinking, you have to stop, turn away and follow a new path. That is how you build new thinking habits.

The paperwork given to me, to back this up is available on line. It is the standard way to deal with anxiety etc. I cannot imagine that the NHS will ever be able to provide a one to one support, to challenge every negative thought that the asd person can present. Your example of the man on the clapham omnibus is exactly the same. You ask the reasonable third party, "am I thinking sensibly" If the answer is no, then you have to think something else, or about something else (distraction). You may remember suggesting this strategy to me recently when I posted about stress after socialising. This is the way I live my life, it's a battle, it's tiring and I benefit from new ideas of how to shake off the bad thoughts at 3am. I have taken to reading a chapter of a book, untill I forget about it. I have a mental image of a chap hanging on to the pole of a Routemaster saying "you are thinking rubbish again". Sometimes, I believe my negative thoughts are reasonable so I have to take the feasibility of changing what happened into account, to make it unreasonable.

What I think I am trying to say is, we can get bogged down in thinking we are a special case, but the negative approach of "I cannot get better because" is the standard approach of the depressed person and not unique to those with asd. It is the very first negative thought that needs to be challenged.

Marjorie195 said:

Depression and anxiety are not normal, they are illness. they are not caused by asd.

Not all of our depression and anxiety comes from the ASD but a significant number of us get into depression because of our ASD. The thinking style of ASD people does predispose us to getting trapped in bad thoughts. We also suffer from external events and the normal shocks and turmoil of life. We can also suffer from other mental illnesses which might arise through separate genetic or environmental risk factors.

We can recover from mental illness that arises from our ASD but this needs a different treatment regime to illnesses from other causes. In both cases, I believe, CBT is the most appropriate course for most people but it probably needs to be done differently to take account of our ASD innate thinking patterns.

Rsocks is right here. I'm not suggesting this cures asd. I have loads of issues with people and situations around socialising, particularly noise, both background and loud noise and bright light etc.

The thing is, that I am not currently depressed about it. I'm coping because these issues are normal for me and I have to deal with them as best I can from day to day. I have had to, in complete ignorance, for most of my life.

Depression and anxiety are not normal, they are illness. they are not caused by asd. Many things we experience as a result of asd may contribute to illness, but many things nt people experience cause illness too. The things that made me depressed mounted gradually and included bereavement and a car accident. Those were not caused by asd. Low level bullying and lack of friends didn't help and contributed to the depression.

Mental illness strikes around a quarter of the population at some point, asd does not.

I think that if you see asd as being a major factor in mental illness, then you may close your mind to the posibilities for improvement, even more than nt people do. It is the nature of depression to believe that you can't get better.

You can recover from mental illness if you open your mind to that possibility. I have.

Asd, you cannot change, only learn to cope as best you can. People on the spectrum can lead happy fulfilled lives and use the advantages of the condition and try to avoid the disadvantages. The danger is to say nothing works for me, because it was not designed for me.

If you were hungry, and there was a loaf of bread, buried 2 feet down in soil, you may think,"I need a spade". What I am saying is, look around you, if all you can find is a fork, you would use it. It may take much longer to achieve the result you want, but you would not say "this implement is unsuitable, so I won't use it". You would not choose to starve. If you are ill, and you have the will to live, you use whatever resources are available. It is survival instinct, self preservation.

I don't think Marjorie was suggesting that her ASD had been cured or even that she wanted it to be so. She was suggesting that a boot-camp and NLP style approach had helped her break through and climb out of a depressive spiral. If it worked for Marjorie then that's great and we have to be aware that different things work for different people. Marjorie wanted out of the depression and it helped her.

I would probably hate it and so would you longman but we are all different and as long as we understand that it is the comorbidities that are being addressed rather than our underlying circuitry and chemistry then I don't see a problem here.

Hi Marjorie195, just leaving aside for the moment whether people on the spectrum could make these changes, and how you suggest they go about it......Autism is not a mental illness.

Autism describes a complex of interrelated and interacting difficulties. Despite a vast published resource on autism, there still isn't much out there that gets down to the detailed "nuts and bolts" of how autism impacts on daily lives. There is still a lot that is unknown.

Yes you can do various mental exercises to push your boundaries, find different ways forward, help you adapt and cope better, and many people do develop coping strategies which improve their lifestyle. Many others cannot, because there are just too many conflicting factors preventing them from finding meaningful coping strategies.

With autism, there are so many contributing factors those strategies can be overwhelmed and undermined. Also it is difficult to find strategies that resolve or even alleviate some aspects. There is too much involved for any individual to understand and get to grips with. People were born with the condition. They've had it from the start (even if not diagnosed until much later), and haven't known anything else.

So...... people on the spectrum would need help to be able to do this. Where is the help? OK there are therapists out there, some free services, some charging, some charging a lot. And if you read the postings on here, a common problem is you can find therapists, but way too few of them understand autism. You just get generalists for whom autism is just ....oooo that looks fun...  maybe my homespun therapy cures will work for autism......

But the other side to this is your original candle wick analogy, and your elaboration about neural pathways that can change from back ways to motorways. You seem to be saying (as some people do, including some professionals) that all autism is is a failure to develop (maybe we weren't paying attention when our peers learned life skills), and all we have to do is re-activate the forgotten neural pathways and we are cured.

It is just not the case. It is a very complicated condition. As of this time it isn't curable. There's no magic wand.  

Hi Lomgman, The training I recieved was for the depression and anxiety etc that I was diagnosed with at the time. I am not diagnosed wth autism and I don't think that was even considered by them at the time.

Mental illness affect up to a quarter of the population. It is a product of modern life. People on the spectrum are perhaps more susseptible than most because of the complex problems they face. I would say that neural pathways can change from back lanes to motorways in any human being, and the same treatment can help anyone.

Perhaps the extra problem faced by asd people is their reluctance to change and inability to ask for help. I reached a point where I knew I had to do both and act on any advice I was given. It is maybe, the one big downside of diagnosis, that it can leave the person on the spectrum thinking "I am not like them, this won't work for me , I cannot change how I think."

I would say, we are still human and have more common features than differences, we can and do change and we should ask for help and even if that help is not what we imagined it would be, we should try for our own sakes to make use of it. We are above average intelligence on the whole and can adapt the advice we are given to suit our own personality. The stategies I described were invented by me to fit the way I am. I used their ideas to start me off and they morphed into my own personal mental games for distraction and learning. My games may not fit anyone else, but you bend them to what suits your own interests and personality.

This is self help for mental illness. Autism has advantages and disadvantages. We need to use the advantage of creative thinking and innovation, to extract what we need from treatments available and adapt it. The one thing that I have learned about mental illness is that we cure ourselves. Use drugs when they help, but seek happiness, it is our birth right. I have had an awful lot go wrong in my life, yet I am now happy quite often. My health is my responsibility and I use the resources out there, it's self preservation. There are no quick fixes, only hard learned stategies for survival.

It is a matter of priorities when you become ill. You are firstly human, secondly ill and thirdly on the spectrum.