friendship rules and gingerbread

LonelyColour said:

and only at the end mouthed "thank you" without looking directly at her. Then left the place quickly.

It is amazing that you know yourself this well and you are this tactical! I wish we had accessible lane! Such a great way not to lose energy! 

LonelyColour said:

"hey, I am autistic, I really care about this friendship and you should know this about me"

Hello LonelyColour ! So I am from Hungary, from Budapest. Here we started this asd topic like 2 years ago for adult people. We are mostly undiagnosed. I got mine by luck, by accident! It is a new thing and sometimes can be scary for people who did not read anything abot us. Let’s give it a couple of years to get the country developed . I wish it was not like this, but this is our reality. 

LonelyColour said:

I do on Bumble BFF

I’ve met this friend on Bumble BFF too! Also I work as a volunteer in a coworking office with a lot of autistic (undiagnosied!!!) members where I can finally speak my mind (not always!).

LonelyColour said:

I don't make friendships with men.

I do need friendships with men. I adore them. I have one male friend, very new connection. Also at one point I wish to go back dating!  But before that I wanna know myself very well!

LonelyColour said:

is that not too much energy to spend on a friend?

I wrote the list because I’ve read a lot about late-diagnosed asd women where doctors mentioned that I tend to ask to much from a friend and that I speak out of social terms. Also that having a good friend is basically survival for us! I wanted to be prepared cause this period has not been easy for me. Also my brain likes and wishes  to understand social rules, I think it is an opportunity to train myself and find peers and go against this massive ‘asd mixed with this sociatey’caused lonliness I inherited. 

LonelyColour said:

I would have to lay down and sleep for a whole day after meeting with that friend.

I will lay down anyway cause also the joy can cause me shutdowns.

LonelyColour said:

Just thought I would show a different perspective

And thank you so much for it! I really adore gingerbread also I bought amazing wood cookie stamps for this occasion and I really hope I will have a good time!

Hi,

I have gone through the replies and I would like to offer my perspective as a late diagnosed woman as well (currently 41, diagnosed at 39). Please take only what works and if it works, and discard anything you think doesn't align with you.

Regarding point 3, if it's a new connection, in my opinion it's a good thing to share your diagnosis early on, as a "heads up". What I like about new connections, as difficult as they are, is that I can start fresh and let them know of my conditions early on. This reduces my need to mask. It's a way to say "hey, I am autistic, I really care about this friendship and you should know this about me". This way,  when you make "mistakes" in the social rules of friendship, you are less likely to cause offense because they already know you are autistic and you struggle with these things.

Regarding all the other points, they all sound like heavy masking to me. Something I am trying to do as a late diagnosed woman is to unmask. For example, yesterday I went shopping in the supermarket and used the accessible lane. I arranged all my items on the belt the way I like it, made 0 eye contact with the cashier, took bags without asking for permission first, took my time to arrange the things inside the bags the way I like it, then looked at the screen, paid, and only at the end mouthed "thank you" without looking directly at her. Then left the place quickly. Because I was in the accessible lane, I knew the people around me knew that there was something "going on" with me, which reduced the pressure to make facial expressions and small talk. And because I was able to not do any of the above without fear of causing offense, I was able to go home and still have energy to put the shopping away and so a few more things.

I find new friendships a good opportunity to be yourself, so letting them know from the very start that you are autistic I think it's a good idea.

When I want new connections, I do on Bumble BFF (a dating app with an option for friendships) and intentionally look for fellow autistic women/women with the same values as me. These are my rules (I don't say them out loud, they are my internal rules for selecting friends):

1. Only neurodivergent women (or non-binary people), preferably autistic (diagnosed or undiagnosed, I will notice it myself when I first meet them). - I don't make friendships with men.

2. Only people with the same special interests as me

3. Only people with the same core values as me (in terms of politics and social justice)

4. Early talk about intense personal topics should be allowed and probably expected

I don't know if any of this resonates with you. If you feel like you cannot talk about her husband and you cannot tell her about your diagnosis (which is probably a big thing in your life right now) and you have to think so much about the comments you should do about the house or the gift you should bring, is that not too much energy to spend on a friend? Personally, all that would take so many "spoons" from my energy that I would have to lay down and sleep for a whole day after meeting with that friend. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of friendships?

Again, if none of this resonates with you, then just ignore it all together. Just thought I would show a different perspective

Lotus said:

Why do you expect to be talking about men?

Hey! So my new friend likes hand crafts and to talk about emotions, relationships, love, her marriage. With her I can’t talk about intellectual things cause somehow she does not feel comfortable. It is a pitty but she is a very warm-hearted person so I thought to myself I will talk about my other interests with other people. But the way she speaks about people, like I should take notes, it is very important for me, kind and warm! Also maybe I will be a good infuance to push the convos to a bit towards other fields also.

Lotus said:

Not telling her about your diagnosis is a good idea at this stage, wait until you're more comfortable with her.

….when will it be? It is hard without real close  friends… but let’s hope for the best

I love that article! Thaks so much Lotus !

 Hi Ma.ra.  Good to hear that you are meeting up with a new friend. We learn from new experiences.

This is what I think:

1. I read somewhere that gifts should be roughly the same value as what you know you are getting or expect to get in return. I assume that your friend is providing the ingredients for the gingerbread, so as others have said, a small inexpensive gift is ok to say thank you for her inviting you to join in with this. With regards to the flat, just find one thing positive to say - so even if you can't see anything you like you can try the asking a question about something that's already been suggested, or if it's warm you could say "it's nice and cosy in here".

2. I suggest asking open ended questions, so don't say "how was your week?", ask "what have you been up to since I last saw you?" Which encourages someone not to just reply " ok thanks" but to tell you things they have done, extending the conversation.

3. Not telling her about your diagnosis is a good idea at this stage, wait until you're more comfortable with her.

4. Why do you expect to be talking about men? I would suggest not talking about her relationship (except to ask how her husband is) unless she brings it up, and don't say anything negative about it. If she asks your opinion, say you're sorry but you don't know enough to be able to advise. If she asks about your love life and you think it's different in some ways to hers, you can tell her whatever you feel comfortable with, but if you think it's different to hers you could say something like "although that's just me, we're all different" .

5. As Iain has suggested, focus on positive things. Remind yourself you are achieving something good.

6. Have a time in mind when you will leave, and I suggest about half an hour before that time saying "oh, I'll have to leave in half an hour because I have some things to do later"

7. If you're not sure about your understanding of something she says, try asking "do you mean this..." Or saying "sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?" . Most people are happy to help clarify things and it's not unusual in friendships or relationships to have little misunderstandings.

Also I have found an article that might be of some interest:

https://www.scienceofpeople.com/how-to-make-a-best-friend/

Hope you have a nice time making gingerbread!

My special interests just pop up outta nowhere, like I can’t choose or control them. And honestly, I kinda love that about myself. It is funny I think.

Ma.ra. said:

I have to train myself about this

This is the way!

Find a topic and search for psycholgy / sociology explanations for it to learn. It takes a little time every day for months to start to build up a good understanding of some subjects but when you can treat it like a constant improvement then it becomes a habit.

I've done this for decades now and learned loads of stuff that I will thankfully never need to use but are still interesting.

Should you turn it into a special interest then it gets to be so much more fun.

I lost serious friendships cause, this is very very hard topic for me to understand. Like my brain does not wanna understand. I have to train myself about this!!!!!!!

Ma.ra. said:

Only if a friend asks my opinion, right?

In essence yes - even if she asks your opinion the chances are very high that she is looking for validation and support rather than for you to verbally tear down the partner.

This can be a minefild so one good rule of thumb is to ask "what do you want me to say" and if they insist on the truth then tone it down as much as you can initially and only if she agrees and wants to know more should you say more.

Remember that your friend probably has a huge amount of her life invested in this partnership so there is a strong chance that criticising the partner will make her become defensive. 

When in doubt, don't get involved. I would even go as far as to say something like "he seems lovely and I don't know enough about him to even form an educated opinion" as a cop-out.

This is part social rules and part psychology which makes it doubly hard to undestand for us - it took me years and much reading up before I worked this stuff out.

Stuart333 said:

Things often have stories

Noted! Also for me it is very hard to invite people to my home exactly because of this! This new friend has been at my place and she was super nice and attentive! But it is always like a test!  When do you know that you can let someone in your home? 

When you say be attentive about her flat, yes and no.

You can point things out, like interesting wallpaper, carpet, etc. don't go overboard commenting on everything though. Its not an inspection.

Don't criticise if you don't like something. You can say"Interesting clock, does it mean something to you", Where did you get it".

Things often have stories. Even if you don't like the clock, the story may be interesting. E.g. it was a special gift, it was their nans, they bought it on a fancy holiday, etc.

Iain said:

something cheap

Okay! Got it!

Iain said:

unless they are close friends that you know will care about it.

I am so freshly diagnosed that I really need support so I can’t afford to have bad reactions by sharing it without caution! I remember it was your advice Iain like 3 weeks ago!!!! It works well!!!!!!

Iain said:

Absolutely never criticise another relationship that your friend is in.

Only if a friend asks my opinion, right? 

Iain said:

we made this - it is really good

Good! I will do this!!!

Iain said:

allow yourself the pat on the back when it does go well.

Lovely idea!!! Thanks so much!!!Iain 

Stuart333 said:

The point of friendship is to want to spend time together.

This is very calming!!!

Stuart333 said:

It isn't about right and wrong, it's about what works for each person.

Noted!!!!

Stuart333 said:

Try not to get stuck on one topic for too long

I’m bad at this, but I’ll make a cute little list in secret! I feel awkward about it, but I need structure and practice. With the help here in the community, I’ll try to let go of this shame…

Stuart333 said:

Mostly don't take yourself too seriously.

This new friend is very good to take the edge of my seriousness! It is very hard to do it alone but maybe with time!

Stuart333 said:

get your gingerbread and say goodbye

This phrase made me smile!!! finally it seems easier! Many many thanks Stuart333 !!!

I would consider the following:

1 - always a nice thing to do, but keep it something cheap. Maybe a small flowering plant as a generic gift that is pretty univeral.

2 - good, solid start. Find shared things to talk about whether your interests, experieces of hopes - try to keep these positive. This gives you something you both can talk about without struggling.

3 - Good call. It is good not to spread what some would consider to be "bad news" unless they are close friends that you know will care about it.

4 - Absolutely never criticise another relationship that your friend is in. The one exception is when there is a breakup then you support her to the hilt but try to make fun of it at the same time.  e.g. "he broke up with you? You are my friend so I've gotto attack him right? What a barsteward to do that to you. Shall I go on?"

This lightens the mood, supports her and helps her feel better.

5 - I find that thinking positive things really helps. When you taste the gingerbread then think "we made this - it is really good" and through the positive thinking your mind will actually start to believe it. This is just psychology at play but it works.

6 - When you say goodbye don't frame it as an ending - rather frame it as celebrating the good stuff you just did together. Say something like "I really enjoyed your company today, I had great fun. Thank you" which will make her feel good and make you remember the positives. Then the parting can be more of a looking forward to the next time thing which is also positive. Everybody wins!

7 - It is best to remind her of this up front then it will take the edge off if you do misstep or offend accidentally. Try to make a note at the time to review later in order to learn.

You seem to have a pretty solid idea of the social rules here so you are doing well. Remember that you are still learning so make light of it, treat it as a positive that you learned when you get it wrong and allow yourself the pat on the back when it does go well.

If it is a new friend you don't need to take a gift. The point of friendship is to want to spend time together. The gift of your time should be enough. If you really want to take something it must be small and cheap.

As well as asking how her week was, be prepared to share the same about yourself. I am bad at this. I ask lots about other people but then share little about myself. So I know who they are but they don't know who I am. This is one sided. So think about how you would answer the same questions so you are not caught off guard.

If you talk about relationships you can mention your position. It is also valid. But just accept other people may have different views. People have different lifestyles. It isn't about right and wrong, it's about what works for each person.

Try not to get stuck on one topic for too long, unless they also really want to talk about it. You can always talk about it again in the future, there is no need to cover everything in one meeting.

Mostly don't take yourself too seriously. This is the hard part. It also means don't overthink everything.

For the end you could just agree a time when you will finish, then at 4pm or whatever, you can just say it is is time to leave. Say thank you for the time, get your gingerbread and say goodbye. Having a plan can make it easier. You can be a bit flexible.

Good luck.