Can anyone tell me how to have an argument ASD to ASD? Sorry, I go on a bit…

TheListener said:

OMG, he understood

This is great news. Clear communication is the lifeblood of a relationship and it is so refreshing to see that it took one session to clear that blockage that had real potential to fester.

It will be a work in progress (all relationships are I think) but by taking the time to really communicate clearly you can find where the real issues are and then work on them.

It takes guts to say some of those things out loud though - cudos for taking that step and making yourself vulnerable for the sake of the relationship.

Or Pink Floyd, Another Brick in the Wall, 'we don't need no thought control, no dark sarcasm in the classroom...'

Thought you might be interested in an update.

We agreed to talk about it again and left it a couple of days. In that time, I used Iain’s link to fair fighting rules to write some statements down in the place I log the argument. I keep adding to it when I understood myself a bit more and what made me so upset.

We sat on our sofas and talked about it. Except talking for me is difficult without crying. I read some of my statements out and let my partner respond to each of them. When I got to the ones I couldn’t read without crying, I texted them to him (I had explained in our last argument texting made it easier to cut out the emotions so that wasn’t so new).

OMG, he understood! He thinks he can’t have the conversations at all without keeping going so wanted me to tell my dad not to talk about it. I don’t want to do this because I don’t think they need to know the stress it causes us (and my mum, sadly, is big on absorbing fake news so we like to make sure my dad hears normal views). I said I could tell dad but don’t want to. He left it until the end to then say, but I need to tell you that I think you’re wrong! He doesn’t think politics should be off-topic. I agreed and said me neither. I think we should recognise that we need to move on after a short period and there are nicer family things to talk about (which is where the frustration and stress started!) I told him that I thought ‘we’ would be better at recognising that we need to move on now we have talked about the feelings it has caused. We’ve agreed to try one more time and if we end up in the same situation, I’ll say something to dad.

We visited his parents at the weekend and I commented on the way home how well his mum moved away from politics by saying this isn’t very cheerful, let’s talk about something else - in the hope that he sees his mum as a good example. I’ve been updating my will and he joked, have you written me out of it?! I guess his, I can’t do this anymore, is a heat of the moment comment. I do make sure I have my finances in order though!
Thank you all for your supportive comments.  

That was really useful feedback, thank you. I can really relate to that and see how we both fit the adrenaline concept. Seeing the ‘something bad happens’ as one of my partner’s pattern recognitions makes it easier to deal with too. 

NAS94209 said:

in response to him asking why men always accuse him of flirting with their girlfriends

so he asked the question above

NAS94209 said:

I told him that an aspect of body language to do with prolonged eye contact may be interpreted as flirting.

You gave an honest answer.

NAS94209 said:

He actually said, he didn't mind other people whom he didn't care about saying that but for me to say it completely pulled the rug from under him.

No, it sounds very much like he is trying to guilt trip you over his hypersensitivity to criticism.

You did nothing wrong so please don't put the blame on yourself. This is just one of those unexploded mines that come with life - baggage some call it.

I think you may actually be better off without him when he has such extreme reactions to minor things and it would mean having to be walking on eggshells around him.

He will need to deal with his issues on his own (probably through therapy if willing) otherwise this problem will repeat with other friends too.

Thankyou for your helpful comments. The original comments from me that started it all off, was in response to him asking why men always accuse him of flirting with their girlfriends, when he's not. I can see now that I could have simply reflected that back to him to ask if he had any ideas on that, to see if he had any insights. Instead I gave him my ideas, based on my honest observations, which were not based in any malice what so ever but intended to provide information. I told him that an aspect of body language to do with prolonged eye contact may be interpreted as flirting. I know he was not aware he was even doing that, so is innocent, and had no intention of illiciting that response in people. But it really freaked him out, he felt that I had done the classic NT thing of criticising autistic behaviour, and he felt betrayed by me. He actually said, he didn't mind other people whom he didn't care about saying that but for me to say it completely pulled the rug from under him. That was 5 months ago. It's been 2 months now since he broke all contact with me. 

Parents will almost certainly have been through the school system themselves, but its very hard to get your children away from it, unless you have a lot of money and/or the ability to home school.  Teachers talk down to parents and treat us like older naughty children, I remember when my children were of school starting age, the local primary schools telling off parents, many of who were teachers themselves, for teaching their child to read, they'd done it wrong! When a child is ready to learn to read and wants to learn and a parent teaches them, how dare a school come along and tell them they've done it wrong and complain that they're going to have to undo that learning to teach them to read in a different way!

Are the hundreds of young people leaving school barely able to read and write or do basic sums equiped for society?

I mentioned some well off parents, because I'm a bit sick of hearing about how some parents scrimped and saved to send their child to a private school at an average of £7:500 a term. If you have 23k a year to school your child, plus extras for trips etc, then you're well off. When I was at uni, I was friends with a few people who'd been privately educated, and I was really shocked and surprised at how much they'd been spoon fed by teachers and how much they didn't know how to learn themselves, I think they were actually worse off than those who'd been to normal high schools.

I think that in order to home school your child properly then you need to be well off, well off enough for one parent to stay at home and teach. I knew lots of parents who home schooled, they were all well educated with partners in good jobs, who couldn't understand that some of us, me for example, didn't have the skills or the knowlege educate our own children.

I think were schools can and do do well, mostly, is putting children in an environment were they have to be with people from different backgrounds to their own and have to cope with people they don't like.

Surely encouraging individuality dosen't mean creating '..radical free thinkers..'? Just people who know what critical thinking is and how to apply it along with so many other things that people need in the workplace as well as in life in general.

NAS94209 said:

I accidentally and unintentionally retraumatised him with a comment relating to how NT people might interpret his autistic behaviour

It depends on what you actually said I think - it sounds like it could be quite innocent and a massive overreaction from your friend and hence inreasonable or it could be nasty in which case it is entirely reasonable. Wihout that context is is hard to assess.

NAS94209 said:

he understandbly felt criticised and he initially shut down, then over a period of a few months of overthinking he became totally overwhelmed

Unless you knew he was predisposed to this form of spiralling behaviour then it is not on you. We all say dumb things from time to time (I hold some impressive records!) but an unpredictable consequence of this magnitude should not be something to weigh on your shoulders.

NAS94209 said:

It all tapped into a seam of trauma that he was already carrying that was nothing to do with me but became attributed to me and my comments

It sounds like you are being scapegoated for a major crime when you only committed a minor one (in relationship terms) - this is bad behaviour on your friends part in my opinion.

Because of the traumas most of us carry there is a risk of the odd unexploded mine in relationships.

If you can give us more detail on the original comment (minus specifics that could identify anyone) then it would help work out if you are just being exposed to an unreasonable response or not.

Hi. I'm new to this site, I've been looking for help/support/advice with dealing with a major fall out with my autistic friend, and this thread was very interesting to read. He is not my partner, we are not in a romantic relationship but we were (so I thought) close friends of sorts. I knew he is autistic but it's only from knowing him for a year that I've really begun to understand the complexities of what that actually means for him. I myself will be having an assessment very soon to determine if I am autistic as well, as yet it is undiagnosed. 

I'm interested to know and understand from an autistic perspective, if a broken friendship can ever be repaired, once the trust has been broken. I suspect not. The level of trauma my friend experiences on an almost daily basis is big. I accidentally and unintentionally retraumatised him with a comment relating to how NT people might interpret his autistic behaviour - I know, WTF, right? I got it so wrong. Possibly due to me being too honest. Whatever, he understandbly felt criticised and he initially shut down, then over a period of a few months of overthinking he became totally overwhelmed to the point where he totally cut of any contact with me. I had apologised unreservedly and repeatedly said it's not his fault, he's done nothing wrong, etc and we were sorting of muddling along but I just kept on trying to justify myself rather than actually be a good support. He remained loyal and respectful and was trying hard, as was I for a long time. It all tapped into a seam of trauma that he was already carrying that was nothing to do with me but became attributed to me and my comments until we culminated in an emotionally reactive arguement over something else entirely, and caused him to shut me out completely. I understood that was his way of protecting himself, but I have felt so sad ever since, knowing he felt utterly betrayed by me and thinks I believe his autism is a problem, which is the total opposite to what I actually feel. I think that's why I find it so difficult to let go of, because he doesn't understand how much I actually value him and love him as the brilliant  human being that he is. 

Yeah, you can get along and communicate with him when both of you are positive, but the communication breaks down when it's negative, but I guess that's what's expected during arguments when no one sees eye to eye. But maybe try to de-escalate, maybe take a break from each other until the negative emotions have died down, and try communicating after things are calmer, and thoughts are better sorted out. Every relationship has arguments, but it's whether or not the both of you can find resolutions to problems. If you can, you'll form stronger bonds. If you can't, then it'll weaken the bonds.

I think you have a great view of trying to find solutions to problems, but maybe your husband finds certain words triggering, like the word "wrong." If someone did something wrong, it automatically means in his mind that there's someone to blame for it. So maybe try using different words, or say that you just wanted his input on any solutions that he can think of to solve the problems, or reiterate that you were not trying to blame him, and bring out the good quality and traits you see in him.

TheCatWoman said:

So why do schools say they want to encourage individuality when they don't ? Isn't this selling pupils and parents a lie?

It is what George Orwell referred to as being ‘Newspeak’ in his book about totalitarianism called '1984', with the infamous ‘War Is Peace, Freedom Is Slavery And Ignorance Is Strength’ slogan as being the three fundamental principles of the superstate Oceana, with the lead protagonist Winston Smith who works at the Ministry of ‘Truth’:

Basically ~ wanting people to be individual involves each person competing to be the best and either winning, losing or coming somewhere in-between, with the inspiration ultimately being not dying of exposure and malnutrition homeless on the streets or out in the wilds.

Individuals are then desired in terms of being replaceable numbers, actually being an individual though largely attracts however much or whatever type of violence will result in collective conformity ~ which of course will be strangely acceptable due to the nature of normalised abuse, in that almost everyone gets traumatically knocked or shocked into habitually unconscious, subconscious and preconscious compliance.

TheCatWoman said:

So why do schools say they want to encourage individuality when they don't ? Isn't this selling pupils and parents a lie?

They (the educational system) are fine with pupils being individuals so long as they look the same and behave the same.

The purpose of the school is not so much to educate children to be effective adults but to train and condition them to be useful in society. This is why the governments are happy to fund them - they need more tax payers, contributers and baby makers.

If we produced radical free thinkers then this would disrupt society and the very model they are supposed to fit into so you can see why this has come about.

I don't think parents are sold a lie. They have been through the system themselves so know what it does and have no excuse for having illusions about it. They may not examine it critically but this is their failing.

All the care of vulnerable pupils such as neurodivergents is about getting them to integrate and cause least disruption while giving the schools the good PR of being "caring".

TheCatWoman said:

I can only guess at the things policy teams come up with

I worked with plenty of people in the civil service who did this and the majority are certainly low on clues. Occasionally them meet with people at the sharp end of things in the field and their questions to these experienced individuals tend to be around how the policies are perceived rather than how effective they are - way too much vanity going into the projects.

So why do schools say they want to encourage individuality when they don't ? Isn't this selling pupils and parents a lie?

Do you think all individual expression is socially disruptive?

I still think disregulation is a disrespectful and unhelpful term, it maybe how information about ND filters down to teachers and schools, but in an environment that wants regulation above all else I wonder at how that understanding and help is achieved on the ground?

I can only guess at the things policy teams come up with, I've been in a few meetings with people strong on policy but with no experience in the area they're making policy on.

TheCatWoman said:

most schools are about fitting square pegs into round holes.

They do like to encourage conformity as that is the neurotypical way - follow the rules, act predictably and look as expected.

Schools are there to produce more clone members or the population that can be catered for using uniformly predictable services.

When we start getting ideas about individual expression in ways that make us hard to manage then it puts a strain on society ro accommodate this - hence why schools are directed to minimise this.

My uncle is a former headmaster of a secondary school and hearing him talk about the meetings they have with the regional and national policy teams is iluminating.

The use of terms like dysregulation is just part of the training they get on dealing with neurodivergents so the positive is that this is actually filtering down and they are being seen as a facet of neurodivergence rather than just a badly behaved kid.

Silver linings and all that.

It's also a term used in schools, I get that people having a melt down is unhelpful to other students, but lets face it most schools are about fitting square pegs into round holes. One of the first things schools say is that they encouorage individuality and self expression, they achieve this by putting everyone into a uniform with regulations about hair, piercings, shoes, make-up, nail colour and anything that makes someone an individual.

TheCatWoman said:

Why can't we just feel what we need to feel and then stop?

Dysregulation means you don't have control:

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-dysregulation-5073868

emotional dysregulation, is an inability to control or regulate one's emotional responses

If you don't have this then no need to feel bad about the term. If you do have it then technically you are faulty - i find it best to accept this and own it. It is part of who I am. I think the control is useful where we cause hurt or offence to others through our insensitivity or abnormal reactions.

There are obviously degrees to which it applies so maybe you just have a faulty knob (oh, err madam) or the bit that warms up the water only works on alternate Wednesdays - referring to your analogy.

Personally my interface panel needs the buttons pressing really hard and then gives ear piercing beeps in response.

TheCatWoman said:

I don't think it's for our benefit

It is a medical term to describe a condition rather than anything to give us relief of benefit. Just a way for our doctors to label our various traits or for us to understand one of the ways we differ from others.

Disrugulation is a horrible term to me, it makes me feel like a faulty boiler or something. Why can't we just feel what we need to feel and then stop? Who do we have to be so controlled for? I don't think it's for our benefit, I think its because others are uncomfortable with what we feel and don't want to adapt or change thier behaviour, even when it's so obviously distressing.

Hello, 

Some thoughts. 

- it's not about stopping the argument from happening again. It's about

- having set phrases, catch phrases, to use with each other when in that mode

- knowing that you trigger each other's adrenaline. That is fight or flight. There's no winning at this time. And ego is involved. People can only listen and love when fight or flight is turned off. There's a sort of posture for that, sort of leaning forward. Works better than breathing strategies. Ask a physio if you need tops on the posture. 

- autism brain finds patterns. If something bad happens the brain links to all the other bad things! This is not someone being mean but it WILL make them feel negative. Maybe a rule is, if they stick to topic theyre 'regulated' and if they're jumping between issues they're disregulated and need time out.

...

Disregulation is when fight or flight is on. It's frequent. It's the nervous system being mangled. I suspect I need to meditate twice a day to keep the fight or flight off. When regulated, I don't yell back at people. Or get hurt by things my kids say. 

I am curious to see what advice you receive as I relate to your post.  

It's only a thing because I made it up, or rather I recognised this as happening in various situations and relationships.

TheListener said:

So I can’t talk about something I’m interested in?

You can reply "sure thing, talk a away. I am weary and close to closing down or walking away, though, so.. just saying."

and then do so if they continue. Use your feet. Most opinions require an audience in your relationship it would appear.

This is not a right and wrong proving ground. Some folks are just hooked on controversy and they're simply looking for a fix.

The other person is providing it. 

I don't know your partner so can't say, with any confidence, as to your situation.

But I do know opinions are as ephemeral as dew drops so why invest so heavily in them in the first place?