Intelligence Vs Autism Spectrum

The intense anxiety of trying to please my parents by getting to university  vs knowing full well  I lacked the ability to  cope with the independent living side of  being at university, along with the effects of severe verbal bullying, was a major factor in my developing a serious mental illness. This was in the mid 1970s, way before there was the amount of help and support available now.

The term I should've done A  levels was the 1st time I ended up in a psych hospital, after a few days in the school sanatorium. Since then, apart from an abortive attempt at a history A level correspondence soon after  my 1st psych admission, I've gone into avoidant mode re several suggestions to do a college course. That has been because of what my care coordinator calls 'bullying related trauma'.

I didn’t find university much different to school as far as social complications went.  No real instinctive ability to understand how to socialise comfortably and easily, often treated with ignorance, contempt and abuse, and excluded. That was the 80s, before the Aspergers diagnosis was introduced.

University teaching can be quite unstructured and difficult for an autistic to adjust to.

UCL graduate.

Thank you for such an intellectually open discussion. Yes it could be dangerous, like Eugenics. We kind of do have segregation in many areas though. If you look at education, you get streamed at school into top and bottom set. We have elite universities Oxford, Cambridge then the Unis that are at the bottom of the league table and easier to get into, like the one I went to. I was just thinking how one of the first posts I read on here was someone saying they don’t really enjoy talking to neurotypicals and I was just thinking that if an accumulation of bad experiences are forcing above average intelligent people to shun all human contact, or shut themselves away then it would be better to have physical safe spaces. A bit like how feminists will sometimes set up women only communes and groups etc. Again thank you for your deep thoughts. 

NAS88864 said:

What social skills would you say are difficult for those on the spectrum, that you read books about? 

It isn't so much about books for gathering this info - read the posts on this site and you will read the experiences of the majority of posters refer to issues understanding what the rules are.

Many people also suffer trauma from early age social interactions that lead them to avoid contact in later life (a part of their coping / protection mechanisms).

Many others suffer from their sensitivity to sensory input and struggle to make out conversationsm, suffer extreme anxiety when dealing with others etc - a real mixed bag at times.

The empirical evidence is overwhelming, even allowing for the fact that this is a bit of an echo chamber for these opinions.

NAS88864 said:

Our superpowers have been diluted almost because we’re trying to fit in with a generic, identical less environment. 

That line of reasoning is a dangerous one. The same logic could be applied to say that men are stronger than women so we should be allowed to go to a school where we can really develop our strength and no girls are allowed. Maybe it could be caucasions are higher scoring in classical music than blacks so schools for whites only for music should be created.

We don't need anyone to be excluded from us, but do we need to be included with enough care that we don't suffer unduly.

That doesn't stop us having our own social clubs (nobody would come anyway LoL), online communities like here and creating our own spaces to nurture our superpowers.

Oh and at 17 got sent to private Psychologists and counselors for years as they tried to discover what was wrong with me. 

No children or partner either. Which I am happy about because Art is my everything, I can’t have distractions, divide my time etc. 

My history is that at 17 I dropped out of society became a recluse until 23 when I went to uni and did a degree and MA in Art. Obsessive about my artwork, it’s my life, it is my heart and soul but haven’t tried to sell it because I don’t want to deal with buyers. So I do a normal job to not starve to death. But am 40s now and constantly have problems in my jobs because of the people. No tolerance for other colleagues, don’t find them interesting, would prefer to be alone, don’t like authority. The only job I’ve ever loved is delivery driving as I’m in the car alone, spend minimal time with colleagues and get to listen to intelligent books in my car. So even though I’m at work I get to control my environment and create a world of academia while being paid. I listen to Great Courses a lot and particularly love the history ones. Currently listening to one about ancient Mesoamerica. So I have two jobs delivering which I love and the people one which I struggle with. What I struggle with my people job is no one is pushing their brain fast or hard enough. But then maybe that doesn’t mean I’m on the spectrum but just that I should go into teaching. But then I couldn’t do that because of the people and lack of control of my environment. So I feel in a bit of a vicious circle where I can’t really go anywhere. Can only continue to keep making Art to pile up in the house and deliver to make money. 

That is great to hear that some Universities are accommodating. Part of me thinks thought that wouldn’t it be easier for Autism spectrum students and lecturers not to have to deal with neurotypicals? Just to be able to get on, in a more efficient way. A lot of the social guidance right now feels like it’s about finding your tribe. Finding people who you feel most comfortable with. I think diversity is really positive but also to be with ‘your people’ gives you such a strong sense of self, that can be lost if we all have one big melting pot because then no one knows who they are. Our superpowers have been diluted almost because we’re trying to fit in with a generic, identical less environment. 

What social skills would you say are difficult for those on the spectrum, that you read books about? 

This is very interesting about dedication. Yes I was thinking maybe also because Autistic spectrum people don’t do frivolous socializing they spend more hours on their specialism. I used to like the term Monomaniac and would say that this is what I was. But then I think well how about all the Scientists that obsess about certain theories for life who aren’t on the spectrum. It’s fascinating to discuss thank you. 

Awwww this is so sad to hear, I’m sorry. I wonder if I suffered some of this but don’t know. People think I’m cold and standoffish I think. Also I’m not sure if I come across as disingenuous, pretending to care, like with colleagues when I don’t. Also I think people find you a threat when you come across as though you don’t need them. I watch other females behave very close, I’ve had people try to be my friend before and be like they were joined to my hip and I had to get out of their stifling grasp. But for others I think that might be quite normal to have such close relationships. Whereas to me I only see toxicity with that. So I think maybe if I give off that vibe that I don’t care whether the people are there or not they don’t like it. 

Amazing to hear of your success in relationships. Very beautiful to hear. I’ve described myself as Sapiosexual before. Looks mean nothing to me at this point in my 40s. I was told once by a friend with Asperger’s that I would go out with the elephant man, which is true. Only if he said intelligent things to me. I see words and ideas as gold dust. To me how rich within a person is, is ALL that matters about being human. Trumping financial wealth and appearance. I want to hear gold nuggets of beauty from their mouths, sentences studded with diamonds. I don’t see it as a problem but perfectly rational. I find having to conjoin my brain with that of another a very deep activity. I hate to be swallowed and erased by the dominant brain of another if it doesn’t lack quality. But then I think am I just an empath and am easily sucked into other people’s worlds. My own is so strong. 

I think maybe I was mentioning capitalism and consumerism more in a visual sense than moral. Just that because the drive is to make as much money as possible, less care and attention is taken with the aesthetics. So for example you have beautiful, highly detailed Victorian and Georgian properties that look stunning and last for centuries alongside ugly contemporary buildings that were thrown up and are falling apart. Although there are some new styles of architecture that they are currently running with in my city that are very visually interesting. I think I’m driven by beauty of environment, so if the Capitalist style suddenly became more attractive I would love it. Of course parts of it are anyway, fashion, interior design, there’s a lot of beauty and high quality there. I suppose I just feel the streets of the city though are scrappy and sometimes not nice. I don’t really like tv I think for this reason. It looks trashy, with all the adverts.

NAS88864 said:

I feel that there really should be a University for autistic academics.

I believe the preveiling opinion is that we would be happy to be a part of the rest of society / universities etc is we could be given enough "slack" to be able to function fully there. Segregating us is probably more damaging than helpful and would inevitably lead to discrimination claims from non autists down the line if it was too successful.

That "slack" would involve things like quiet spaces for us to be able to decompress from being in crowds, having recordings of lectures for the days we cannot attend due to overload, being able to have the same seat in lectures etc - not the same for all but being able to agree to have these available when needed.

It isn't a huge amount to ask and in fact some universities are already doing this which is helping tremendously.

Going to the point now about our ability to progress careers in general, well that is always going to be an issue when society operates on a huge unspoken series of rules and expectations that are available in the brains of 95% or so of the population (the neurotypicals) but autists (neurodiverse) do not develop their social skills centres in the same way as their brains develop differently, so they are at an inherent disadvantage.

It is like you were invited to play a game of cricket and you have no real idea of the rules but know you need to hit the ball with a bat. There are so many rules, scoring processes and factors that you have no idea if you are winning or losing and others will often look at you and think "what the hell are they doing?".

Being in society and navigating a career is like that for many of us. A few like myself will pick up a book and read up on the rules to understand what is required, but it isn't instinctive as it is for neurotypicals. We have to think about it pretty much all the time these rules come into play and this brings its mental stress overhead over time.

My sense of direction is absolutely awful, and I have the common, but not universal, autistic adaptive functioning < intelligence/IQ going on.

I don't think there's really any difference in intelligence between autistic and allistic people overall. I think that special interests can make us look like we're super clever because we know EVERYTHING about them, when what we actually have is dedication- but to be fair, dedication can be just as much of a positive or negative trait as intelligence depending on what you do with it.

I'm very academically able but I feel like my type of intelligence is still different from that of an allistic person with similar academic achievements. The academic stuff might come a bit more naturally to me than it does to them (not in every case though) but I also have a real aura of "how can someone so smart be so dense" because I have no sense of direction and I never remember where I put anything

The toxic effects of 'bullying related trauma' destroyed any hope of doing much , with my intelligence, for the common good. I'm reduced to passing on academic and other articles found via my RSS feeds that hopefully better inform and/or interest others. I've done that, almost daily, for about 25 years  now.

My take is that there isn’t a real correlation between autism and intelligence. Nor is there a connection as some here suggest between doing “good” and being autistic. Nor either between autism and one’s place in and attitudes to capitalism and consumerism. Of course I can’t off the top for my head reference these statements but I’m pretty sure they are correct. 

On a personal note I find intelligence hugely attractive, sapiosexual, and what initially drew me to my partner were her processing, reasoning and intellectual skills. Her quest for knowledge about everything is incredible and matches mine. 

None of this makes me a good or better person, it’s just who I am, though the who-I-am is actually really successful in the world we inhabit. You’d probably consider me an exemplar of capitalism and the elite, but then I was brought up playing Monopoly and graduated from UCL and I won’t ever apologise for that 

NAS88864 said:

And I don’t normally like talking to many people or think ‘oh that’s interesting conversation, I’d like to be involved’ 

If you aren't already diagnosed, and are interested in whether you might be 'on the spectrum' this is a good test and was used as part of my NHS (via a private company) diagnosis:

https://embrace-autism.com/raads-r/

Also, lots of people on this site are self identified.

Thank you so much for explaining. That makes sense. I feel that there really should be a University for autistic academics. It would probably far out do the neurotypical universities. I read in the post by Debbie1 that the rate of thought maybe be at a higher rate than neurotypical so the research output would be amazing. 

I remembered something else. I used to have a friend who was Asperger’s. I used to say that he and I were Ubermensches all the time. I loved reading Nietszches description of the higher beings that I really felt we were. Because we were such powerful humans, with really strong hobbies and addicted to collecting and cataloguing. But obviously the problem with that is that Nietzsches Superman theories were used by the *** to justify their delusions. 

People I trained, people I helped with their PhD theses, ended up way above me in university hierarchies. Autistics tend not to like change and changing jobs, changing universities and countries are, in essence, mandatory to get ahead.