What's gender?

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Intersex isn't a gender though

I think some (not all) intersex people would strongly disagree with you.

as I’ve said my own view of gender is that it is a spectrum not a binary. But you’re right while some people might include performative elements (like who wears the trousers) for me personally I wouldn’t. I tend to think of it more in terms of what body parts does some one have / want to have.

it would be nice if we lived in a world where delicate guys could be treated like princesses and wooed by doting strong women and bought drinks in bars. Or where women could spend their days lifting weights and join the SAS. Alas society is not that flexible.

but for me when I think of gender identity I’m thinking, ok if I was the only one left in the world what would I want to see when I looked in the mirror.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Actually the population percentage is about the same at all points in history, it's just visibility

Ok in this context when I’m talking about young trans people I mean young trans people who’ve medically transitioned. The kind of people who went through tavistock or who had rich parents that sent them overseas for treatment. That only really became a thing around the 00s. (As I understand it)

and it was more of an aside anyway. The point I was making is gender is a spectrum but if you try to categorise it there must be at least 3 genders. And actually probably more. Because In a very real way there are important functional differences between trans people.

we already recognise these distinctions in crude forms in our language. We talk about pre and post op trans people for example. But I was pointing out even trans people sometimes think of their gender identity as being different from other trans peoples. That maybe 3 gender categories, male / female / other, is still too crude for the spectrum.

Not all self identifying cis women can be treated as women for medical purposes. Some have an intersex condition like complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. Some trans women can sun bathe nude on the beach and no one would know they were trans. Some couldn’t but in a bar or on the street they pass 100%. Some trans women couldn’t pass face to face ever. Some trans people can pass for either gender with some effort. Some don’t want to pass for either gender or want to pass for both genders at different times. And then the same trend continues with the trans men on the other side of the spectrum. All of these relate to how they want themselves and others to perceive  their bodies and how they and others actually do perceive their bodies and all could arguably be called a kind of gender.

yes that’s probably the most functional useful way to think about gender. Gender as the way we want our bodies to be as compared to how they actually are as compared to how they are perceived by ourselves and others.

Peter said:

But some self identifying trans people clearly aren’t trans. And yes it’s probably a tiny number but, for example, the case of a prisoner declaring they are trans because they think Women’s  prisons are softer, would be an example.

Actually while not all self identifying trans people are trans, all trans people are self identifying, they have to be by nature of how gender identity works. Unfortunately what you allude to as the "fake trans" is a criminal element, but they are seldom known for their honesty anyway, I'm sure they'd tell you they were a crocodile too if they thought there were a few bob in it.

Peter said:

I personally think if you define non binary narrowly to mean ‘trans intersex’ then a lot of self identified non binary people are clearly not ‘trans intersex.’

Intersex isn't a gender though so transintersex literally doesn't exist, to effectively become intersex might be some nonbinary folks ideal form of transition, but it isn't always and that doesn't make them less nonbinary because NB is a gender (not sex) identity (a feeling not based on anything physical).

Peter said:

And simply saying ‘I don’t conform to gender roles.’ Is not a gender identity. By that definition I’m non binary.

Now that is interesting, now you have said that I know you must view your own gender in terms of identity and not performativity then, because performative gender is  the root of where sayings like "you can see who wears the trousers in that house" come from, and if gender was only viewed under a performative lens then you would be non-binary. But by saying you aren't nonbinary just because you don't conform to gender roles (social norms) your sense of gender must be identative, even if (presumably, because by your own words you are not trans) exactly what that gender is based on is just perceived gonadal sex.

"now this point of view is dated, probably from around the late 00s where the number of young trans people was much much smaller. Maybe the community has totally changed since then."

Actually the population percentage is about the same at all points in history, it's just visibility that goes up or down depending on how safe to leave the closet trans people feel in a particular country at a particular point in history. Trans acceptance wouldn't actually make any more trans people than there already are, just more that were previously uncounted would become known to statistal data. For example the population of lefthanded people appeared to rise after lefthanded acceptance became more wide spread as less people hid their being left handed, but after a certain point in time the number plateaued and then just kept at a steady ratio with the rest of the population, revealing the true number of lefhanded folks that had been there all along. The same is happening in more recent years with LGBT people.
There's actually a graph that shows this:
https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/

HP35 said:

there are (sexual/reproductive) parts of my body I don't want to have, but I don't particularly want the opposite set either."

Which sits pretty comfortably inside my understanding of what non binary should be. … or it could be both. As in “I want body parts from both sexs”

I think you’re wrong to think of it as gatekeeping. I think the point is the young trans women I was thinking of are actually embarrassed by the label trans because they don’t really think of themselves as trans women anyway, just women. So they don’t really want to be members of the ‘trans club.’ It’s not about them wanting to gate keep non passing trans people out of the ‘trans club’ (I know it’s not a great term but I’m struggling for something better). It’s more that they think they are entitled to not be gate kept out of things because society reacts badly to non passing trans women.

it’s like they’re saying ‘please don’t lump us in with them, don’t kick us out just because they make you uncomfortable’

now this point of view is dated, probably from around the late 00s where the number of young trans people was much much smaller. Maybe the community has totally changed since then.

but I can understand how someone could feel that way. If you see a burly trans woman with 5 o clock shadow and a square jaw walk into the changing room at Ann Summers and the women there have a fit I could understand how a passing transwoman in that same changing room might be thinking ‘please don’t ruin this for me.’

I've certainly met young trans women at pride events and so on who I didn't realise were trans until they started talking about their surgeries, marching alongside older people who don't pass. The kind of gatekeeping you describe simply isn't acceptable in any queer spaces I've been in.

Personally when I say I'm non binary I mean it as in "there are (sexual/reproductive) parts of my body I don't want to have, but I don't particularly want the opposite set either." Whether or not I end up actually getting those parts removed, rather than simply hiding them under clothing and using medications to shut down their functioning, is something I'm not decided on, given the difficulty of access and the risks and sensory overload involved in surgery and recovery. When I first started reaching out to the trans community I worried about not being "trans enough" but I've had nothing but acceptance.

But some self identifying trans people clearly aren’t trans. And yes it’s probably a tiny number but, for example, the case of a prisoner declaring they are trans because they think Women’s  prisons are softer, would be an example.

I personally think if you define non binary narrowly to mean ‘trans intersex’ then a lot of self identified non binary people are clearly not ‘trans intersex.’ And simply saying ‘I don’t conform to gender roles.’ Is not a gender identity. By that definition I’m non binary.

but that’s not what I was talking about regarding young transitioners.

I’m only going on what I’ve been told but as I understand it a lot of young transitions, people who probably got booked in for SRS on the 18th birthday kind of thing, go close to 100% ‘stealth’ and tell almost no one they know they are trans. The only people who know are often other young trans people.

im told, now this is just what I’ve been told, that they often find older transitioners, specifically older trans women, intimidating, because to them they look like ‘men in dresses.’ (A term I have read them using) As I say these trans people you are probably not going to find advertising themselves as trans or attending trans rights groups. If they are in some LGBT group they probably just call themselves lesbians.

maybe it’s a different kettle of fish with trans men because the cosmetic results are much better post puberty. But for trans women there can be a bit of a divide between those who transitioned pre 20 and post 20.

Peter said:

the younge transitioners are more like ‘just let us have the drugs and gender identity politics can go hang. We like our new gender role and you will never know the difference.’

Peter said:

They don’t worry about being challenged using a toilet or changing room, don’t worry when they go out dating. Some of their friends maybe even some of their lovers don’t know they are trans.

No that was a very tiny minority within a minority of now older folks who very specifically could afford to transition and if they could pass would never leave the closet for fear of being murdered under the "but I'm not gay!""defence". The reality is most are unable to access means to transition in the first place. And yet despite transmedicalist barriers they remain transgender.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02murder.html

It's terrifying how often people who are neither in the community nor have actually studied the biological or social sciences will wade in to give "knowledge" on a whole group of people they've no connection to based purely on their reactionary feelings without so much as a verified source to back up what they say.

I really cannot understand your stance on usage, when it is blatantly obvious that the word gender is used in science, medicine, sociology and everyday social interaction. It is definitely not merely a linguistic term.

Only in a few countries, France being one, is there an attempt to guard language  in such a way, and this is ultimately futile. The Anglophone world is a free for all.

I have avoided any direct interaction with you, I merely ask for the same.

As someone who used to edit biology papers prior to publication for a living, I can confirm you're absolutely correct that most biologists are *** at writing.

What happened to your flounce?

As I say it is a worthy cause to defend language, that has been careful added-to and staunchly guarded over several centuries, from regressions such as these.  
If scientific literature is leaning on improper grammar, then it is equally-true that scientific literature is leaning on improper reason-and-logic, and consequently improper rhetoric. A dire affliction for a civilisation.

It is true. I have a biology PhD and worked in biological research for 34 years, I know what I am speaking about. "According to the current scientific literature, rats, mice, guinea pigs, other research animals, and even plants have gender. Animals may have social behaviors and roles often associated with one or the other sex; however, most published reports are using gender as a synonym for sex, ..." Of course it is increasingly used in human related contexts as a shorthand for such concepts as 'gender roles' and 'gender attributes', but it is not restricted to grammar, linguistics or philology.

I know I was not replying to any comment but... I am confused, what are you talking about?

That’s not true, ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ are completely distinct words, I believe that the fight against the modern-day illiterate use of ‘gender’ is a hill worth dying on.

The word to indicate whether someone is male or female is ‘sex’, gender is a purely grammatical term.  
For instance: “Objects of neuter ‘sex’, neither masculine nor feminine, can have masculine and feminine ‘genders’”. For example, ships can be referred to as ‘she’.

Lots of people say "all pronouns welcome." You can do that if you don't want to express a preference. People just want to know a way of addressing you that you're happy with. It's like asking your name rather than just guessing a name and calling you that.

Detransitioning isn't any harder than transitioning in the first place, medically speaking. Relatively few people do it, but it's certainly not "over" if you decide you've made a mistake.

I went through similar feelings as you before I came out as non binary trans. I hated being asked for pronouns because I hated giving she/her but hadn't given myself permission to use anything else yet.

It's ok to be trans and feel uncertain. It's okay to have imposter syndrome because you worry you're not a "real, true" trans person. The community won't reject you. Not all of us have known since we were 3. It's okay to spend some time exploring your gender. The community won't reject you, and won't force you into choosing a label while you're still questioning.

Good luck.

* Laugh!

I am sorry I can't resist! Did you count? Hahahaha! That's a pretty long message! Hahaha! You cracked me up! Nice one!

In science, when referring to male or female, gender and sex are identical in meaning. The word gender is often used preferentially to the word sex, as the latter can also refer to sexual intercourse. Scientific usage is not identical to social usage. 

Ok, I will only reply to this one comment because it's your question. After this I'll disappear because as you can see and as I could predict when I started writing this, I got back-clash. (Hater is definitely not the right term for this... argument? Contradiction, conversation that's a good word) *Laugh

Anyway, yes, that's my argument that now you MUST present your gender with your name. I mean... it's none of their business? I can definitely understand why people should present themselves differently if they WANT to. But what I got a lot of argument for, is that I claim that people are forcing others to add pronouns to their identity. I mean your friend "forcing" you confused your identity, didn't it?

You shouldn't have to use pronouns if you don't want to use pronouns. Nobody should FORCE you to use pronouns and then claim that they accept diversity. It's your right to say no. It's my right to say no and it's other's right right to say yes. That is diversity.

And note: Transgender are people who thoroughly and LONGELY know that they are another gender. If you change gender, let's say you have a surgical change and everything. And then later realise you were wrong (maybe you were just going through hard times) It's over. It's too late to turn back. THAT'S the reason changing gender has been LEGALLY so long to change, that's why they go through paperwork, medical professional. It's not a haircut or another pair of socks. It's your life. That's what I meant by real not confused people, not impostors (keep up to date please), not children, but people who know. They know.

And it's not just the presentation of your identity, you have to understand that it's security behind it. We are not living in a world of all flowers and bubblegum. People have and will continue to take advantage for horrible reasons. Pronouns will also change other things. And other things are not in favour of the female sex. Not. At. All. That is why I am against pronouns. It's the domino change behind it. I could go on, send links or send proof but let's just stop there.

And I apologise again if I offend anyone. But I won't reply to any comment, let's be civil about this.

I agree that if it's done on purpose...

But in the spirit of this forum, I'll leave my opinions, from a male perspective, for another day as I detect they won't be constructive here

The two experiences are not comparable because you do not have the same issues and trauma around your gender.  

It's more like someone calling me "spaz" like they used to at school when I didn't understand things.  Something that presses on sensitive areas, reminding you that you are different and that you have failed to be what you desire to be. 

If someone honestly forgets and gets a pronoun wrong, the trans people I know would gently correct them even though it's still uncomfortable.  If someone is deliberately using a word that that they have been told is upsetting, then they are simply being unkind.