What's gender?

People may find this article interesting. (https://inews.co.uk/news/non-binary-american-uk-stuck-legal-limbo-gender-2242643)

about 25% of the world now legally recognises some form of non binary gender. The uk does not. The person in question is legally recognised as non binary in the country of origin. They have applied to get their non binary gender recognised under uk law. In principle the body involved has agreed. The paper work has been issued. But even if they get that paperwork other government bodies like the passport office and the dvla are saying they might not go along with it.

that said with  so many people with an X on their passport coming to live in the uk the government may be forced to make some sort of rule to account for their status at some point. At which point pressure to extend that rule to UK citizens will inevitably be brought to bare.

thing with none binary is it gets misused...

a person cant say they are none binary... but then say they are trans man to woman or something... because that is still inside the binary they just changed from one to the other inside that binary.

to be none binary a person has to say they are neither a man nor a woman but something else outside of that entirely. that is true none binary. but most people using it still call themselves a man or a woman and are still inside the binary themselves. which harms its definition and power as a word.

edit: but then theyd have trouble defining what none binary is, what is outside man or woman, they dont know, they dont have a name for it, because its sorta made up... after thinking on it myself the only conclusion i came to is that theyd have to make it like a sexuality where from straight and gay they had to go in between to make asexual... therefore none binary is redundant, they have no name for any other gender...  the only thing they could really validly say is instead that they consider themselves Agendered....

Caelus said:

edit: but then theyd have trouble defining what none binary is, what is outside man or woman, they dont know, they dont have a name for it

But we do have a name for it. Historically it was hermaphroditism and in modern medicine you’d say intersex.

Peter said:

Ok but the otherkin really do mean it. you kinda glossed over that one.

If you are asking do I accept them? As part of being LGBTQ? Depends on if it falls under MOGAI. If they are having a spiritual thing as some claim then it probably comes under religious freedom.  I don't proclaim to understand what exactly goes on in their heads but if it's important to them and it harms none I don't see how it would be any skin off my nose to call them whatever it is they want to be called. Even if it's a bit "out there".

""It often feels like non binary is a label adopted purely to give an individual a pretext to try and police the thinking of others. And that I think people find objectionable.""
Again I think that is optics, which is a shame, because most folks identifying as NB genuinely are not trying to pull someone's leg but just honestly trying to live their truth.

Peter said:

I'm fairly sure there is meaning independent of society. For example on a desert island with no society hunger thirst and boredom all have meaning.

Ah I think you misunderstod the definition of a construct. That's fine, the world isn't going to fall apart if it's been misunderstood.

Peter said:

Conversely if it doesn't matter what you do so long as it hurts no body it shouldn't mater if I accept it or not, so long as I still treat people well regardless of how they define their gender.

I think this comes back around to a similar area I mentioned in my first line. And earlier, when I explained your gender and how you experience it is %100 correct for YOU. If by which you mean you cannot understand my point of view because you aren't standing in my shoes (which would be weird because then you wouldn't be you, you'd be me) so you are just for lack of a better phrase "humouring" me then no I suppose the end result is the same more or less regardless. But the respect still matters construct or not, because I think you will agree that if someone would correct the pronouns they use for a dog they previously misidentified as a "good boy" when it's really a "good girl" not abiding by a request to use certain pronouns for trans/nb is worse than dehumanising if a person would respect a dog more than another person who has done them no harm. Which is why understanding doesn't have to be the pre-requisite of acceptance imo.

(I wasn't going to hit send on this as I already sent my other message regarding having to go on bed rest, but it was already more or less typed up anyway and I just realised it was still here as I was going through and closing down my tabs.) Take care of yourself Peter, I hope to see you around the forums again when I eventually come back. /gen

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

but people who say they identify as an attack helicopter almost never mean it, it's just a dishonest misrepresentation to be petty to trans and NB people.

Ok but the otherkin really do mean it. you kinda glossed over that one.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

In a world where there is no inherent meaning save what constructs society creates for itself depending on where you want to rip that structure apart the anarchy can either be terrifying or liberating.

I'm fairly sure there is meaning independent of society. For example on a desert island with no society hunger thirst and boredom all have meaning.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Because if you really feel "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" then it shouldn't matter if my gender can be measured or not for you (the royal you if needs be) to accept it.

Conversely if it doesn't matter what you do so long as it hurts no body it shouldn't mater if I accept it or not, so long as I still treat people well regardless of how they define their gender.

You see that's what people resent. Being told how to think. I don't care what labels you (the royal you) use. I don't care which changing room you use. I only care about what you do to your body to the extent that doctors have a duty to do no harm and therefor do some due diligence that the procedure they offer you do more good than harm and that you are competent to consent to them. These are matters for you. I resent and I think most people resent being told how I must think of you (the royal you) as male, female or something else.

It often feels like non binary is a label adopted purely to give an individual a pretext to try and police the thinking of others. And that I think people find objectionable.

Peter said:

That's a bit wishy washy don't you think? Another non binary person can't look inside your head and see if your perception of your own neurology being non binary is the same as theirs? If gender is just a feeling how does anyone know their feelings are the same as anyone else's?

Not wishy washy at all. Your gender is your gender others don't have to understand everything about it to accept it.

Peter said:

To borrow a hyperboly from 4chan, if I feel like my gender is attack helicopter why isn't it?

You're asking the wrong question. If you feel your gender is  whatever then it is, but people who say they identify as an attack helicopter almost never mean it, it's just a dishonest misrepresentation to be petty to trans and NB people.

Peter said:

How can we put a number on your feeling of being non binary?

You can't, and the innability to measure it doesn't change the outcome, I still am , always was, and will always be, but people who are bothered by that should really be asking theselves why it bothers them.  In a world where there is no inherent meaning save what constructs society creates for itself depending on where you want to rip that structure apart the anarchy can either be terrifying or liberating.


It's odd and sad how that "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" attitude was never really upheld even back then, and is markedly absent now , it is surface level patter and optics and no more than that. Because if you really feel "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" then it shouldn't matter if my gender can be measured or not for you (the royal you if needs be) to accept it.

Peter said:

That's a bit wishy washy don't you think? Another non binary person can't look inside your head and see if your perception of your own neurology being non binary is the same as theirs? If gender is just a feeling how does anyone know their feelings are the same as anyone else's?

Not wishy washy at all. Your gender is your gender others don't have to understand everything about it to accept it.

Peter said:

To borrow a hyperboly from 4chan, if I feel like my gender is attack helicopter why isn't it?

You're asking the wrong question. If you feel your gender is  whatever then it is, but people who say they identify as an attack helicopter almost never mean it, it's just a dishonest misrepresentation to be petty to trans and NB people.

Peter said:

How can we put a number on your feeling of being non binary?

You can't, and the innability to measure it doesn't change the outcome, I still am , always was, and will always be, but people who are bothered by that should really be asking theselves why it bothers them.  In a world where there is no inherent meaning save what constructs society creates for itself depending on where you want to rip that structure apart the anarchy can either be terrifying or liberating.


It's odd and sad how that "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" attitude was never really upheld even back then, and is markedly absent now , it is surface level patter and optics and no more than that. Because if you really feel "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" then it shouldn't matter if my gender can be measured or not for you (the royal you if needs be) to accept it.

Peter said:

Ok but the otherkin really do mean it. you kinda glossed over that one.

If you are asking do I accept them? As part of being LGBTQ? Depends on if it falls under MOGAI. If they are having a spiritual thing as some claim then it probably comes under religious freedom.  I don't proclaim to understand what exactly goes on in their heads but if it's important to them and it harms none I don't see how it would be any skin off my nose to call them whatever it is they want to be called. Even if it's a bit "out there".

""It often feels like non binary is a label adopted purely to give an individual a pretext to try and police the thinking of others. And that I think people find objectionable.""
Again I think that is optics, which is a shame, because most folks identifying as NB genuinely are not trying to pull someone's leg but just honestly trying to live their truth.

Peter said:

I'm fairly sure there is meaning independent of society. For example on a desert island with no society hunger thirst and boredom all have meaning.

Ah I think you misunderstod the definition of a construct. That's fine, the world isn't going to fall apart if it's been misunderstood.

Peter said:

Conversely if it doesn't matter what you do so long as it hurts no body it shouldn't mater if I accept it or not, so long as I still treat people well regardless of how they define their gender.

I think this comes back around to a similar area I mentioned in my first line. And earlier, when I explained your gender and how you experience it is %100 correct for YOU. If by which you mean you cannot understand my point of view because you aren't standing in my shoes (which would be weird because then you wouldn't be you, you'd be me) so you are just for lack of a better phrase "humouring" me then no I suppose the end result is the same more or less regardless. But the respect still matters construct or not, because I think you will agree that if someone would correct the pronouns they use for a dog they previously misidentified as a "good boy" when it's really a "good girl" not abiding by a request to use certain pronouns for trans/nb is worse than dehumanising if a person would respect a dog more than another person who has done them no harm. Which is why understanding doesn't have to be the pre-requisite of acceptance imo.

(I wasn't going to hit send on this as I already sent my other message regarding having to go on bed rest, but it was already more or less typed up anyway and I just realised it was still here as I was going through and closing down my tabs.) Take care of yourself Peter, I hope to see you around the forums again when I eventually come back. /gen

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

but people who say they identify as an attack helicopter almost never mean it, it's just a dishonest misrepresentation to be petty to trans and NB people.

Ok but the otherkin really do mean it. you kinda glossed over that one.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

In a world where there is no inherent meaning save what constructs society creates for itself depending on where you want to rip that structure apart the anarchy can either be terrifying or liberating.

I'm fairly sure there is meaning independent of society. For example on a desert island with no society hunger thirst and boredom all have meaning.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Because if you really feel "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" then it shouldn't matter if my gender can be measured or not for you (the royal you if needs be) to accept it.

Conversely if it doesn't matter what you do so long as it hurts no body it shouldn't mater if I accept it or not, so long as I still treat people well regardless of how they define their gender.

You see that's what people resent. Being told how to think. I don't care what labels you (the royal you) use. I don't care which changing room you use. I only care about what you do to your body to the extent that doctors have a duty to do no harm and therefor do some due diligence that the procedure they offer you do more good than harm and that you are competent to consent to them. These are matters for you. I resent and I think most people resent being told how I must think of you (the royal you) as male, female or something else.

It often feels like non binary is a label adopted purely to give an individual a pretext to try and police the thinking of others. And that I think people find objectionable.