Daniel,

Unfortunately the way our society is structured means that most things are marketed and marketable.  I like to believe that the majority of people are genuine and wanting to help each other though.  I'm not sure how ABA has been used in different cases or what the individual experience of it is.  All I know it that in order to function in society, there are certain behaviours that are deemed acceptable. 

My daughter is Autistic and I have many traits but no diagnosis.  I explained to her at an early age that she'd need to find different ways of stimming because other people would not understand her need to do so.  It saddens me but I know how some people can be.  I guess this is a kind of positive reinforcement so she will not be bullied by those who do not understand Autism.  It's my way of protecting her but doesn't mean I am modifying her behaviour in a negative way because she can be free and herself when she's with me but we both have to act a certain way in public.  Sad but true.  What I find upsetting is that folks have to do this in order to "fit" into society and the people that aren't able to control their behaviours are labelled unfavourably by a society that doesn't understand.  :-(

I more than strongly disagree with you about fitting in, you immediately fall in the logical fallacy of the bandwagon.

Women aren’t allowed jobs, slavery, racism, discrimination and more were deemed “socially significant” behaviour, you are suggesting if society chooses to be evil and immoral we should all be evil and immoral people. You are going to have to justify your idea that it’s better to stop your daughter stimming, you’re actually claiming we should approve bullies bullying people but not approve stimming, why not modify the bullies?

When you claim we need to conform what are you actually saying? You’re saying to people “stop being who you are” which illustrates society is so hypocritical, it claims to equally value everyone and directly does the opposite wishing to hurt people.

 I will not conform to your immoral idea that I must devalue and discriminate a minority and praise bullies for bullying someone. Your ideas are the same as Ole Ivar Lovaas’s.

Daniel,

I am fine with you disagreeing with me but I do not appreciate your aggressive tone.  I am unsure of why you have so drastically judged me and taken my comment so angrily. 

That's why there is a need for what in the civil service we used to call evaluation. We used to talk about it a lot but rarely did it. It's where you go back and look at old policy and see if it actually achieved it aims. As far as I know no one is going doing research into ABA and other behavioural therapy approaches to autism to see if they are damaging. Or at least if that work is being done its very low profile at the moment.

Peter
Actually just realised the time, so pls forgive me if this is the last reply I make for a good long while. (As soon as the Other Half gets home we will turn off our devices, shut the door to the world and get comfy for Xmas Eve + Day and  boxing day.)
Hope you have a good Xmas.

Peter said:

Only the theories that stand up to repeated attempts to prove them wrong are considered valid. I do think psychology as a study could use more of that approach.

In that regard we certainly agree. I suspect the reluctance however is (abeit rightly so) an ethical one, as to test those therories in psychoanalysis would require literal human guinea pigs and that risks a lot of potential harm. Therefore I think the progress is slower as they are forced to await data as it occurs naturally and they must wait until they gain a big enough data pool before they can claim any firm conclusions.

I mean the entire scientific method is based on proving other people wrong. It's like survival of the fittest applied to theories. Only the theories that stand up to repeated attempts to prove them wrong are considered valid. I do think psychology as a study could use more of that approach.

You think it's because most physicists are likely to be autists themselves so give 0 effs about the feels of their peers in the quest  for being correct? (Not a bad thing for a scientist.)  haha XD

(TBH I am of the opinion we need a lot more autist psychologists and psychiatrists.)

I doubt you'd find it. Autism research is a small pool and the people doing it aren't keep to antagonise each other by doing work that invalidates other peoples therapies. You have to look at physicists for that sort of commitment to hypothesis testing. :)

Peter,

It seems I used the wrong terminology in my previous post because it's not positive reinforcement in your tiktok example that I use with my daughter.  I praise her for who she is, not what society expects her to be.  It's a good video but disturbing if that's been done to people in that regard.  I had to suppress who I was to look after my Dad because he was really ill so I can understand how suppressing yourself feels.... I'm not sure if the tiktok video explains the whole picture though?

Sorry but that has hallmarks of a fallacious equivalence for tiktok clout and I don't consider it unreasonable to expect evidence of claims (that could be easily misunderstood and therefore dangerous) like these should really be presented by an actual psychiatrist/psychologist who can explain a studied and documented mechanism of causal effects.
I respect that you think that way, and you are entitled to your beliefs, but it isn't enough for me to change my own point of view without substantial hard evidence.

I think this is one particularly good argument as to why positive reinforcement can be harmful. www.tiktok.com/.../7163363848337034539

Sam likes to draw,

I try to be the best person/Mamma I can be wth who I am and my upbringing.  I will make mistakes and I will fail but my determination to be better and try to move forward with love is what makes a difference I think.  I do think society has vastly improved in acceptance for all compared to when I was a child but there'll always be room for improvement just as there will always be folks who are ruled with hatred.

I wish I could heal it all but all I can do is accept reality and try to be as kind and caring as I can be.  

I'm so glad you have a good relationship with your daughter. : )
I live in hope of proper autism acceptance in society one day, even if that does seem quite a ways off, and then stimming will be treated as the non-issue it should but until then I appreciate life is imperfect and sometimes you just have to make it work for you as best you can. And we just have to do what's best for us personally. Life is hard enough after all.

Sam likes to draw,

I'm so sorry you've experienced abuse (me too).  Thank you for your support and understanding.  My daughter and I have a great relationship.  We are so lucky to have each other.  I spoke to her about what she thinks about me as a parent and the comment I received on here.  She said I'm an awesome Mummy (she's nearly 12) and that she prefers that I told her about different ways to stim because the bullying is less as a result which's great.  She's not afraid to stand up for herself which I am so proud of. :-)

Daniel.

Those don't really prove that positive reinforcement is abusive though, in the 2nd video the word abuse- isn't even mentioned and the singular time it is mentioned in the 1st video is "And one last thing that I just really wanted to point out here is the other thing with autistic students or any vulnerable person is that the abuse rates are much higher in vulnerable people."
Which is not the same as saying "positive reinforcement is abusive", it is a statement separate (mentioning only a correlating fact, not explicitly linking it as a causal one) to the statement about positive reinforcement or rather "strength-based learning" spoken directly before.

So this is quite a jump and very emotive language you are throwng around and as an abuse survivor myself I find it upsetting to think you would do so so lightly. Honestly this so upsetting for me to witness this thread unravel, I can only imagine how you've made the accused feel.

️

There's a source in my post itself by Alfie Kohn, a psychologist who works with educators, parents, and therapists globally. 

I'll connect a couple more links with one being how rewards are proven to make things worse off than they were in the beginning. 

https://youtu.be/Iw0Qxz2dKNo

Self-Determination Theory 

https://youtu.be/m1d_AR-r0Iw

There's a source in my post itself by Alfie Kohn, a psychologist who works with educators, parents, and therapists globally. 

I'll connect a couple more links with one being how rewards are proven to make things worse off than they were in the beginning. 

https://youtu.be/Iw0Qxz2dKNo

Self-Determination Theory 

https://youtu.be/m1d_AR-r0Iw

Sam likes to draw,

I try to be the best person/Mamma I can be wth who I am and my upbringing.  I will make mistakes and I will fail but my determination to be better and try to move forward with love is what makes a difference I think.  I do think society has vastly improved in acceptance for all compared to when I was a child but there'll always be room for improvement just as there will always be folks who are ruled with hatred.

I wish I could heal it all but all I can do is accept reality and try to be as kind and caring as I can be.  

I'm so glad you have a good relationship with your daughter. : )
I live in hope of proper autism acceptance in society one day, even if that does seem quite a ways off, and then stimming will be treated as the non-issue it should but until then I appreciate life is imperfect and sometimes you just have to make it work for you as best you can. And we just have to do what's best for us personally. Life is hard enough after all.

Sam likes to draw,

I'm so sorry you've experienced abuse (me too).  Thank you for your support and understanding.  My daughter and I have a great relationship.  We are so lucky to have each other.  I spoke to her about what she thinks about me as a parent and the comment I received on here.  She said I'm an awesome Mummy (she's nearly 12) and that she prefers that I told her about different ways to stim because the bullying is less as a result which's great.  She's not afraid to stand up for herself which I am so proud of. :-)

Daniel.

Those don't really prove that positive reinforcement is abusive though, in the 2nd video the word abuse- isn't even mentioned and the singular time it is mentioned in the 1st video is "And one last thing that I just really wanted to point out here is the other thing with autistic students or any vulnerable person is that the abuse rates are much higher in vulnerable people."
Which is not the same as saying "positive reinforcement is abusive", it is a statement separate (mentioning only a correlating fact, not explicitly linking it as a causal one) to the statement about positive reinforcement or rather "strength-based learning" spoken directly before.

So this is quite a jump and very emotive language you are throwng around and as an abuse survivor myself I find it upsetting to think you would do so so lightly. Honestly this so upsetting for me to witness this thread unravel, I can only imagine how you've made the accused feel.

️