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Who are 'they'?

and as for the thing i keep calling "the left" i shouldnt call it that because they have betrayed everything the left stands for as soon as they took to violence... as soon as they took to identity politics which is rather segregational and decided to use all sorts of identity as a excuse to commit violence to others. so muchso that the EDL leader nick griffon actually is now a labour voter! lol

so much so that the left wave palestine flags and say stuff that a certain nasty person from 1940s was right and attack a certain religious ethnicity for the sake of palestine, palestine of which that nasty man from the 40s actually supported and they worshipped him as a god on earth.... yeah, the modern left are not really the classical good left, they are the suspicious infiltrators that once called themselves socialist in the 40s

im pretty left wing myself so i dont hate the left. i hate unruly mob violence.... and yes blm here did actually start needless violence, there was plenty of vids of it and they are the ones that lack empathy, they laughed at a female police officer being knocked off her horse and wished death upon her and were about to stamp her face in on the ground, they went out of their way to set police horse boxs on fire with horses in them resulting in the death of the horses. they threw a brick at a horse nose and broken it and started fights everywhere and even stabbed someone to death. that cannot be allowed in our society.

i agree with all the changes needed by the left, i mean why wouldnt i? they benefit me... i dont agree with making everything about race though because then your making a more race based racist society. that stuff needs to be brought to rest and we need to view all as humans. using race as a political tool is going to lead to a very bad future full of harm to others.

oh and as for brexit, that was always rather left wing, and both labour and the snp were the brexit parties of the 1970s eu referendum..... its so left wing even the uk communist party backed brexit.... were all being told a pack of lies by the media to use and manipulate each other into hate. why would they keep calling our country racist and stirring that pot up when we are the most accepting nation on the earth which is proven by just going to another country and seeing how your not accepted at all? but yet everyone is accepted in the west.... every other nation on the world is a ethno state but the media would spread hate against our accepting multicultural nation as if were the racist ethno state? ....media is sus....

It would be nice if the leader of the opposition said things and every now and then the PM (regardless of who is in power) would say ''Oh what a jolly good idea, thank you leader of the opposition I'll get that set up. It never happens. Then in the next manifesto you see it written as it was their idea all along. Seen it both ways.

Diplomacy and lobbying don't always work.

Now I do find it interesting about Brexit. I have friends on both sides of that divide. I asked for examples of what laws the EU imposed that they would want to change. I didn't get a single reply. On the matter of visas etc I pointed out that movement works both ways and if Polish plumbers can't come here nor can retired office workers go and buy a house in the Algarve and visit whenever they want. I was told I was putting my friendship at risk. I don't know of any violence by the remain side.

So was the separation of remain and leave on Facebook organised by some algorithmic magic preventing me from seeing opposite views? The only posts or answers I saw on Facebook from Leave were literally full of spelling mistakes and saying really illogical statements with thinly veiled xenophobia. Could it be that there were some sane replies that I was never allowed to see? I wouldn't be surprised data mining and algorithmic manipulation is a big part of elections these days, most likely financed by China Russia and Panama.

The Black Lives Matter demos in the UK were without violence. If any happened it was as a response to police on horseback with truncheons etc, the demonstrators were not violent.

The same is not true about BNP and EDL demos. 

I gave up trying to understand politics in the US. 

I don't like violence, I don't like angry mobs, but I also don't like apathy.

One thing though is that in my opinion, you hate the left and I hate the right, and that's because we were manipulated by someone else. I don't hate people who don't like Joni Mitchell, I can like people who like things I don't like. I have been married to two people, neither of them have had the same religion as me. It wasn't a problem. My father was a conservative voter I didn't hate him. The UK, France Hungary, Germany, the US, and so many more countries have been divided, stirred into hating by forces they can't see. I'd like to know who those forces are, answers on a postcard to the usual address.

And I quite admire yours, Mr "Plastic".

I really admire your fortitude.  

i find your actually correct on that.
all of my ideas of want of change are rather very left wing ideas..... but my ideas of civility and not being a douchebag are right wing ideas and they stop me from going out smashing peoples heads in for want of change like some type of entitled violent child.

i believe a middle ground is better.... one where you want change like the left do.... but one where instead of taking to violence and destruction you instead do it peacefully and perhaps take to conversation and winning people with words and politics instead..... gee its almost as if thats how the system was meant to work anyway before people instead got subverted into thinking violence and ruination was the only way lol

look at brexit again. the people behind brexit wanted change, the system and government and big business didnt want this brexit change.... so much so tthat the gov and the powers that be had us think brexit was unpopular and would lose by 90% to remain.... but did the people behind brexit need to riot and burn down cities? ... no... and if they did they indeed would have lost by 90% because no one likes that behaviour, it personally effects and ruins the voters lives.... so the brexit side instead sat down and offered us a cup of tea and politely talked to us and won us over with words.... while the remain side then lost their ***, got enraged, insulted everyone and if they so much as heard you was on the fence or didnt know which side to vote for theyd verbally attack you and in some cases physically attack you and this put people off. you see, if you want to win people to your side and get change, you must first treat the people like humans and try to win them to your side. rioting and violence and hatred, it doesnt win anything lol you can get change, but it requires you to win support, and not alienate a single person what so ever, you have to aim to try win the other side over and have them become your friend, that is how politics works, rioting puts people off, negative effect on peoples lives like setting their shops or workplace or even house on fire would turn the people against your cause. why would they vote the way the people that burned their livelyhood down wants them to vote? if anything theyd want revenge on such people and vote opposite.

In my not so humble and opinionated opinion anger can be an appropriate response to a situation. Rebellion can be a good response, apathy is rarely a good response to oppression. 

The way I see it the left are people that want to change the way things are so that they are better for all. Generally speaking the right are people who want things to stay pretty much as they are.

aye posts like that is why facebook silenced me though lol

Your best post so far (IMHO) Caelus.

the tories were on the lefts side so i dont know what your on about.... the tories represented remain and called us all racists lol the remain areas that voted labour for remain and now say tory scum to us are the places that historically always voted tories themselves... the left are absolute hypocrites on this matter and politics have flipped flopped beyond my ability to point it out to people who havent been taking notice as much. all in all .... we can find the truth in that we can say that all parites need to be abolished and replaced.....both tories and labour need to go... if you think labour is perfect and dont need to go then you need to reflect on that.... i hated the tories, my area was labour voting area, labour betrayed us and lost us forever, tories we was only forced out of necessity for brexit but they need to go too as they were the remain campaigners, they were your guys not ours! lol and now you dont even like them and claim your with labour... i say both sides have betrayed their people and both sides need to go and new parties need to form and the left need to respect the will of the people of this nation or forever find themselves discarded.

as for trump, the media attacked him because he attacked the media, and you all believed the lies about him... all they could ever bring up on his words were his sexist locker room remarks that all neurotypical people say in pubs anyway lol and yet they are ok with biden saying blunt out racist remarks 100s of times in his life more so than they could find on trump? not to mention his weird remarks about children, and his inappropriately touching them too... then your all lead to believe that the 10 minute walk in at the capital building was somehow a dangerous terrorist coup.... when people pretty much walked in peacefully and was even smiling and sticking to the carpeted paths lmao a ratherweak coup... but yet the 1 year BLM riots that burned down entire cities ruined peoples lives and murdered thousands of people, that wasnt a coup? that wasnt bad? that was ok and totally perfect in a civilised society? lol

You bring up the left being angry, and I'd agree with you-to a point. Like how left wing/progressive/'woke' (whatever term you prefer) got angry about slavery, about racial inequality, about sex inequality, about worker's rights (the reason we have paid holidays and breaks and things we take for granted). The left gets angry about these things, and the right tells them to shut up and deal with it. 

Inevitably, the left are proven to be right, but not until after all the protests by the likes of the KKK or EDL or whatever other group of frothing at the mouth head the balls are representing the right at the time of each development. And that's what they are-developments. You can accept them and adapt or you can become a relic of a bygone age, relying on sleaze bags like Donald Trump to represent your views and count among your allies white nationalists and proud racists. You may not be these things but you stand alongside those who are if you position yourself to the right, these days. 

You talk about the left only tolerating a few privileged elite white boys but is it not the right to elected the Tories? Led by old Etonians like Boris Johnson, and formerly his great chum David Cameron and fellow old bean George Osbourne? And have they not done the same in the US? Electing Donald Trump, a man so associated with money and (supposed) luxury that he may as well have his face on the dollar bill? Back to the UK, it's the left who campaigned for Corbyn to lead, where the centre and right wing prefer privileged Tory in disguise Keir Starmer.

I think you need to educate yourself on who it is who actually represents your views best because you seem to be quite confused. 

As for the left wing all being white and only surrounded by other white people that is, again, complete crap. I have relatives who are mixed race. I don't need to go on a forum to find a token minority I can use as an example of how my side isn't racist. My side generally isn't accused of being racist and doesn't have to make such gestures. Why do you think that might be?

When someone makes statements like these, Turtle, claiming they know your motivations, know how you feel, know what you think, or know what you want, it's a very clear form of covert verbal abuse. Like suggesting to someone they have a mental health condition because you don't agree with their world view.

If you are doing it intentionally, then it's a very sinister trait indeed.  As this is now a repeated behaviour you engage in, I won't be engaging with in any further discussions on this topic or others. 

Very negative if such austerity is self inflicted because of delusions of sovereignty, voting for governments that cannibalise their own people

Oooh, etiquette. What a good idea! 

Funnily enough I am not sure I remember you sticking to all of tbis

Finally something I can agree with. Having spent decades in an abusive pseudo religious cult I can say that the first part of recovery is loosing the vocabulary. Trumpist words like woke and cancel culture control thought, and perhaps this side of the fence uses similar jibber jabber words, meaningless political brainwashing propaganda words...

I know we all think we're not brainwashed but I have to say that all people are to some degree or another. Words are the key to controlling people.

Turtle said:

Johnny Furriner,

You're even using the same derisive political slang as one another. Too much time in the same echo chambers?

Nexus11 said:

British Dunkirk spirit, making do, sticking together.

Are these negative traits in your eyes?

You're just being silly now.

The anthem of The Labour Party is the song "The Red Flag".

"We'll keep the red flag flying..." 

Why do you suppose they sing this at the end of Labour Party conferences?

What do you suppose they exactly get from a flag?

Turtle said:

There couldn't be a human being that could disagree with anything  you said. The only reason  otherwise would be brainwashing/conditioning from ignorant  arrogant people.

I hope you can see the (verbal) irony of your statement, Turtle.