Is it possible to 'learn' non-verbal communication when autistic?

Emmsmum said:

Thank you so much for sharing your experience, although I'm sorry you had trouble getting diagnosed, it does help to know I'm not alone. 

Well for added 'we are not alone' effect you might also then find the following thread on the Autism Forums website (more commonly once known as Aspies Central) as being worth a read also ~ as a well known female community member of the forums went into detail with us about the proceedings of her assessment and diagnostic report from an assessor that used all the high social functioning traits of autism ~ to prove that she did not have the traits of low or non social functioning autism:

https://www.autismforums.com/threads/assessment-results-are-in-spoiler-its-apparently-not-autism.34994/

Emmsmum said:

I fully understand that autistic traits do not automatically equal autism, but the psychologist said to me that had I not scored so highly in non-verbal communication, she would have diagnosed me with autism. 

That can be though exactly what differentiates between people having autistic traits and as being on the diagnosable autistic spectrum, providing the diagnostic schedule of observation and interactions is used to the appropriate extent ~ keeping in mind that females are in evolutionary terms more predisposed to cooperation / communication in terms of child birth and rearing, and men more competition / individuation in terms of providing resources ~ in that hunting by oneself can be more rewarding, whereas giving birth by oneself can be dangerous.

Emmsmum said:

Thank you so much for the links to the article and academic paper, both of which I will copy and send when I lodge my complaint. 

Rather than making a complaint perhaps, make a query in respect of asking for a reconsideration or getting a second opinion ~ being that you were the one social camouflaging and personally masking, and as such neither you nor the diagnostician can really be held responsible for that.

If that makes sense?

Emmsmum said:

Luckily a my friend of 30 years has offered to write a statement in support of this also, outlining the intense social anxiety/problems I experienced and how I mask effectively. 

In my case after having been through quite a few psychologists and councillors due to minor breakdowns roughly every two years, and really major ones roughly every four years; my medical records were rather packed with the subject of my masking problems ~ so that was all covered and ready for the assessment even before I had it. 

Emmsmum said:

Who knows whether I will get anywhere with it, or whether they will close ranks, but I've got to try. Otherwise I will be saving up for an assessment elsewhere!

If the previous assessment is not reconsidered regarding the masking issues, make sure you that get reassessed by someone that specialises in diagnosing Adult Female specific Autism traits, such as by way of a recommendation from or even getting an assessment at one of The Lorna Wing Centres for Autism in Kent or Essex, with their link here being:

https://www.autism.org.uk/what-we-do/diagnosticservices

Thank you so much for sharing your experience, although I'm sorry you had trouble getting diagnosed, it does help to know I'm not alone.  I fully understand that autistic traits do not automatically equal autism, but the psychologist said to me that had I not scored so highly in non-verbal communication, she would have diagnosed me with autism.  Thank you so much for the links to the article and academic paper, both of which I will copy and send when I lodge my complaint.  Luckily a my friend of 30 years has offered to write a statement in support of this also, outlining the intense social anxiety/problems I experienced and how I mask effectively.  Who knows whether I will get anywhere with it, or whether they will close ranks, but I've got to try. Otherwise I will be saving up for an assessment elsewhere!

Exactly!  I find friendships difficult at times, but worth the effort because I sometimes crave that interaction, however, it is on my terms and I'm very lucky to have good friends who accept me for who I am.  Growing up, I recognised that a smile is an acceptable response and people have commented on my ready smile, which reinforces that I'm doing the right thing.  My sons go-to response is also smiling.

Emmsmum said:

Hi,

Greetings. 

Emmsmum said:

As the mother of 2 autistic children, I finally got up the guts to get assessed myself.  I was shocked to find that they would not diagnose me because my non-verbal skills were too good, other than that, I would've got the diagnosis.

Well one consideration is that having autistic traits does not automatically translate into having enough autistic traits to be diagnosed as being on the autism diagnostic spectrum, but with that being stated there are also other considerations:

Emmsmum said:

I've spent almost 50 years watching and observing people (I've even been challenged several times for inadvertently staring at strangers whilst watching them).  I can keep eye contact for a few seconds then I have to look away, but I'm a naturally friendly, smiley person (like my son) and I feel the assessor didn't 'get me' and took my learnt friendliness the wrong way. 

There is the social necessity for people who are neurologically and behaviourally divergent to 'act' as if they are not socially divergent, and use normal behaviourisms that have been mimicked from and adapted with others in terms of being socially convergent ~ so as to 'fit-in' rather than getting persecuted or victimised for not conforming with the expected social norms, as involves the 'odd-ones-out' becoming societal victims that serve as both a warning to and means for others to maintain there position or advance up the passive and or aggressive league-tables of social status anxiety. 

Acting or pretending to be normal or neurologically and behaviourally typical involves what is referred to as 'social camouflaging' for more generalised behaviours when in social environments, and 'social masking' for specific interactions involving verbal and non-verbal communication with specific people or groups of people.   

Here follows a link for a 2019 newspaper article from the Guardian reporting upon the difficulties that both women and men face when getting diagnosed for the above stated reasons:

Women 'better than men at disguising autism symptoms' GPs would miss fewer diagnoses if ‘camouflaging’ was better understood, say researchers.

And here is a link to the research paper referred to in the Guardian article:

Putting on My Best Normal": Social Camouflaging in Adults with Autism Spectrum Conditions.

Emmsmum said:

Has anyone else come across this, or feel their ability to 'act' normal was used against them in an assessment?

The first time I addressed being on spectrum with a psychologist they rolled their eyes in that '(Oh my life ~ not another one . . . )' manner, and ignored everything I said.

The second time I addressed being on the spectrum with another psychologist several years later ~ they heard me out all big and affirmatively, and then stated, "Well that is all very interesting, but we have work to do!" ~ and then proceeded to inform me I was resisting treatment for my own satisfaction, and if I wanted to get better I had to change and apply myself.

That treatment process made my condition progressively worse, my GP had to challenge them on that matter but they insisted I needed to put more effort in, and a legal team were ardently keen to represent me in court being that I record my psychological sessions so that I can make better sense of them after I have had stress induced seizures because of them, and the psychologist kept making their mistaken assertions and accusations in writing.

When I addressed being on the spectrum with my GP though ~ after discharging myself from the psychotherapy service due to my deteriorating health, they very much in revelation said, "Of course ~ why didn't we spot it before!" and I was referred shortly thereafter and diagnosed a couple of years later, rather than going to court and all that about the psychological malpractice.

I also have a female friend who on their first assessment was not diagnosed as being on the spectrum, but whilst entering into the room of her second assessment she was instructed to "Drop the mask as it [was] not needed [there]!" and was diagnosed at the end of session with the diagnostic report arriving some time thereafter.

Sorry but I'm getting a bit angry reading this. Who is to say autistic people don't have friends. That's a load of BS. I have friends, it's not always easy and requires you to "put yourself out there" but I think some autistic people DO want to be social even though it doesn't come easy or naturally.

I said to my assessor that I've been around NT women at work for the past ten years and have learned emotional responses that way. I'm better at reacting in the expected way now, even if it doesn't come naturally sometimes. I'm better at this now than I was because of the people I have been around. 

Also growing up I just thought if i smile and be lovely that should get you through most situations. 

That is very interesting. I think as I'm quite new to seeing myself in this way I may not be as aware of it. I can certainly respond completely inappropriately to things though, and perhaps that is when I've tried to respond too instinctively.

You mean appropriate small talk?  I found that (subconsciously) adapting to people has caused me to not understand real friendship. And keeping quiet in certain situations is so wise!

Men do this too!  l used to automatically assume if people were nice to me or chatted me up that they actually liked me as a person.  Duh for me!

That's exactly what I said, I take on different personas to adapt to who I'm with!  If I don't 'get' someone I tend to just keep quiet and watch. My assessor also said that because I have a couple of good friends who I've been friends with for 20 odd years, it must be a reciprocal friendship and a lot of autistic people don't have any friends!  My 17 year old autistic son has far more close friends than me and is known for his social skills, but he's still been diagnosed.

M said:

I describe myself as a social chameleon with various personas to switch between to help me blend in.

But you'll always have a time delay - like watching dancers who don't know the moves - they can copy those around them but not in real time - and that tiny delay is all the evidence needed for bullies to spot you..

You're forced to be reactive - to copy what you see - with a processing delay.

If you try being predictive to be more 'in-time', you risk a mask failure when you go left and they all go right.  

I was referring more to the skills required to read the non-verbal messages in real time - NTs can magically just do it and respond in real time - we don't seem to be able to keep up.

I've met so many people I can spot aspie men and women from a mile away.    The logic being if they're not aspie, they're NT.        There's no rules about not being able to have relationships with NTs or AS people - it's just they are easy to spot.     

I'm very aspie and also very good at masking - but the clues are there if you know what to look for - it's even easier in social situations to spot the awkward ones looking to escape. 

Girls and women are taught by everyone to smile, especially at boys and men otherwise nobody will want us. I don't think it is surprising that we learn to do this personally. There is a lot of pressure as a female to look and behave in certain ways. I describe myself as a social chameleon with various personas to switch between to help me blend in. If that doesn't take some emotional awareness then what does?! I don't always get it right but I think if you are smart then you can learn the rules of the "game" that is life just like the rules of any other game. I personally love rules.

Thank you, I will look it up and have a watch.  I'm hypersensitive to other people and their emotions and I told her this, but it seemed to me that she took this as I can understand emotions. Because I look and smile at people when I see them (because that's what my parents taught and prompted me to do), she said my non verbal skills were too good for a diagnosis.

Trial and error seems very logical to me

How did you know that they are NT? A lot of us autistic women don't even realise we are autistic until adulthood, but many of us have NT partners and can sustain relationships. 

Most NT women I've met use and abuse the non-verbal communication to manipulate men - I can see what's happening but I can't understand the rules.

I see them flash every possible emotion and expression (almost like a locksmith attacking a safe) until they find the combination to get the man to do what they want.     Fascinating to watch from the sidelines  .  

It doesn't work on me - I can't process it fast enough - I appear as an enigma to them when really it's just that I'm not understanding the message..

I doubt if that can be learnt - it's done so naturally and at such speed.

There was a programme on channel 4 called Are You Autistic and it showed autistic children learning emotions with robots. It is still available on their catch up service as I only watched it the other day. 

I personally think we can learn emotional cues, especially autistic women as we often spend time with neurotypical women who tend to be more outwardly emotional than their male counterparts. I think I am definitely hypersensitive to other people and their emotions. My own emotional response isn't always "right" but I'm very reflective and intelligent and can usually come to the right conclusions if I give things time and consideration. 

no,  but you're correct to challenge if that helps