How do people with ASD view God ?

My dad beat me at draughts (very similar to checkers) between the ages of six until sixteen when I finally handed him his ass in a sling. He never played me again... When playing board games where you can easily beat the opponent it pays to change the game, for oen where you are less competent. Most people aren't like me (us?) and will continue for ten years palying the same game until they can beat you. And for good reason too! Who wants to be a "one trick pony"?

I like "games", I can unleash the full measure of my competiveness without ruining someone elses life, or making them poor. Whereas in real life I don't really like either winning or losing unless the other person comes out of it O.K. too. (Unless you try to oppress me directly, then I'm never happier than when I finally crush such people) In some "games" one can practice "deceit", as a part of the skill required to play the game sucessfully, "Poker" & "Illuminati" being two stand out examples. Which for me is good as I don't like doing it in the real world, but am equally keen to be able to identify adn defend against it, which does require practice, of course.. Much the same way as I enjoy a good game of "Doom", but unlike many players in the genre, I don't have the slightest desire to have to do it in real life. But when you get a strong gaming skill, then it's a bit of a charachter flaw to want to keep crushing the same players, suddenly you are playing a different game, to the one on the table in front of you...  As my dad found out that day. And as I did, too. He wasn't really interested in the actual game at all, he just needed to beat me in a different way, on those days, and to be honest it's a bit sad really.. 

We all want to "win", the question is how high to you set your sights?

For me, I try to get a win-win scenario in real life, and oft times that is a harder fight than simply crushing my opponent and with real consequences. "Games" allow to one to practice the required skills safely. For those who have genuinely set themselves against me, and are determined to win at all costs, a real win I have found can only be achieved by walking away and refusing the game. Even if you take them on and you crush them, you only won a game that you didn't really want to be playing anyway. It's also how you beat Satan, I believe, if you are into that sort of thing.  

haha, I have a saying, I am like Tomas The Unbeliever LOL

I met 2 non autistic people in my life, that I would say that have a good and strong and moral character, and they are both good fathers, sort of like individuals presented in bible to imitate them, one is muslim, and one is atheist

I am trying to go through life, without harming other and helping those in need, but I have to many vices to say that I'm not harming myself.

On Sunday's dinner at my friend place, he made me realise that winning crushing victory in a game over and over one opponent is humiliating and demotivating, I was always hellbent to win no matter what in a all games.

I did that to my both sisters playing checkers until they refused to continue. I was 10 and sisters 9 and 7.

Now I feel guilty and ashamed. I cut contact with my family, so I cannot say I'm sorry even.

One more thing, have you ever thought about the end of universe? Or do you think it will continue forever?

I had once a dream, where I witnessed it, only to find out it is not the end.

Thanks yourself, It's been an interesting discussion for me, too.

My favourite disciple was Thomas. The guy who even after travelling with Jesus Christ and seeing all that he (alledgedly, I wasn't there to personally verify it all myself) witnessed when faced with the resurrected lord, had to see the palms of his hands first. Yeah I know he got told off and is considered a weak disciple, but for me, "he de man!".   

And if you were to take a substantial dose of a strong hallucinogenic, that is exactly the dilemma that you could face? Do I believe that is a spider walking across my hand? For me life is much simpler, I ask how big or poisonous looking is that spider? That is a gross example of how your beliefs can be far less important than focussing on the immediately important things and doing what you know to be right.

I actually arrived at my semi-faith by considering the simple question of what does God have to be IF he were to exist? The (partial) answer is of course, grand creator designer planner and builder of everything. Then I ran out of brain power. So clearly I would exist at a lower level being a part of the plan and not the equal of it's creator. So If God exists, by the very requirements set by the job he has to be pretty incomprehensible in his thinking to the likes of me.

In short God would have to do ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING when it comes to communicating with me. Rather like teaching some people basic electronics, but much worse. If he wanted me to play a more knowing and informed role, he'd have to leave me some training materials. And if I lived in a desert he'd have to leave me slightly different versions of the same training materials, BUT there would have to be sufficient clues to his existence. And the story would have to stand up to scrutiny and fair testing.

When you go looking for answers to these questions they seem to come, and the most important thing for any sane being, is that one gets to see how to fit in with the plan. Because doing anything else would be stupid. The experience many report, that as you discover more aspects of a reality that includes a creator seems to make everything work better for you, makes having a faith in a benevolent but pretty incomprehensible deity an attractive personal choice, both as a "hedge" and also as an "aspirational guiding thing". 

If I turn out to have backed the wrong horse, there is likely to be no specific consequence to me, yet if I choose to deny the possibilty of god, and there does turn out to be a God and a creation then, I'm just going to be fighting the very fabric of reality, and I do have a few atheist frends who do seem caught in that particular trap to their detriment. And of course, teh big attraction, is the whole "game of skill" that trying to get through life without practicing dishonesty or 9 other forms of bad behaviour that are we were abdured to avoid, although that can all be summed up as "love thy neighbour as thyself".

(O.K. I did have to look up abjured, and I was going to use a simpler word but as it happened it is exactly the right word, and I dont do that very often, so it stays).

I've had inexplicable but really cool things happen in my life, like the day I apparently briefly levitated myself out of a grim situation in front of a decent quality witness. I'd sliiped off a ledge and as I feel threw out my hands and punched a hole through the glass. In utter panic, I stopped myself falling, just long enough to carefully pull my hand and wrist back though the hole, then carried on falling.. I've no idea how I did that, nor has my witness, and frankly I don't care. It would have been a deep cut and I knew that as my hand was breaking the glass. I just made myself  stop falling because I knew I had to. 

I know I had no more than one point of contact when the fall started, and the physics just doesn't work. But I was actually there working, several decades after last taking anything properly hallucinogenic, and I have a sane and credible witness who having just warned me that my conduct was unsafe, witnessed me get what was coming to me. The life I've experienced is way bigger than me already, adding a creator was no biggie, really!

And it gives me someone to thank when things go well, and in moments of weakness I find it easy to imagine that doing the hard thing I don't want to do, but I know actually IS the right thing that I must do, beomes a tad more attractive if I believe that I'm thwarting the plans of "the adversary". I just find the Christianity stuff helpful, and of utilty, and the cost negligeable. I like to have a few questions in the hopper for when those people with the watchtower turn up and I'm not overly busy. It does mean they'll come back next week with the answers, and will do their best to get you to do a bible study with them (I actually had the time, and did about three weeks of Q&A over cherry pie. They were not infallible, and it was possible to pitch the question too far, but it was both entertaining, pleasant and enlightening. I am unfortunately too much of a sinner to join their community without resenting being constantly told not to, but they do have an overall very pleasant quality of life, where like other religions (and unlike others!) they actually work together for the common good. 

Fascinating subject, thanks very much to the thread starter and all the participants. I've done my best as my religion says I should to get God a bit of fair representation, now I hope he doesn't mind if I go and concentrate on selling some of my overly large drone collection... 

In general terms (i.e. not just in relation to this topic), I don't think belief is a choice. For example, if a spider walks on to my hand, I have no choice whether to believe it or not. However, thanks for your comments I Sperg, interesting discussion.

Thats all very true and rational. Belief, ultimately is a choice, and the moral framework etc is only part of the benefits of having that belief. Christianity is a thing that is much better practiced rather than sold by it's adherents.

I see it as kinda like a excercise. We all know it's good for you, but it can be hard to actually get up and do any... 

I personally see god's non appeareance in a ball of light whenever I've asked him to, as an indication that in my human life, I'd do better to focus on what's in front of me, and that his particular plans that day do not include a personal visit to myself. Since I'm not privy or bright enough to know his plans, It's as plausible to me as his non-existence. He did alledgely and seemingly leave us a "bridge" towards understanding in the new testament, and thd knowledge and advice given by Jesus Christ does seem universally and beneficially applicable, so it isn't all "ignorance" on the part of the almighty. But after over a half century of being really interested in finding a definitive answer, to that interesting question, I decided that the real question is how do I want to live my life? 

Hi Daniel, I wasn't claiming anything about Joseph Smith- it isn't a topic I've researched in any depth. I was just pointing out the tenuous nature of your statement that there is no scientific explanation for how he came to write the book of mormon. Nothing else you've said supports that very broad claim, because to say that there is no scientific explanation is to imply that you know and have disproved all conceivable scientific explanations.

I hear randomness spoken of a lot when this subject is raised. It would indeed be astonishing if the universe came to be in the form it is through a 'series of random events'. However, the laws of physics are anything but random. In fact, it is precisely the non random nature of the physical laws in our universe that has enabled complex life to emerge. The planets came about because of gravity (amongst other things)- a structured and uniform process. Life on earth is in its current state because of evolution- again, an unguided although entirely non-random process.

I would also point out that if god is unknowable, then by definition, it wouldn't be rational to believe that it exists. We can't know anything about things that are unknowable, even whether it is possible that they exist.

When this topic comes up, I sometimes feel that people talk at cross purposes, because for some people, belief in god is about giving their life structure or a moral framework, etc, as I Sperg has described. That might be fine. However, it would be of course be a fallacy to say that the belief is true for that reason (a proposition isn't true or even more likely because anyone finds it helpful). For me, only the truthfulness of the proposition is important, regardless of the consequences. Making our starting positions clear would probably help to avoid misunderstandings.

nicely said

I did speculate, and ponder about those concept very much like you

and I have always imagined that heaven is going to be life in another dimension

Though I would prefer to have even limited acces to them all.

I'd add that once you really understand the essential truth of matter, that it is all made from nothing, just  arranged in pretty patterns and bursts of "light", then you might take a second look at Genesis. Add in a soupcon of analysis of the actual messages, functions of the ten commandments, new deal offered by Jesus Christ in the second testament, and it can indeed start to tell a more coherent story. Then layer on a couple of decades of asking questions and having a bit of a think, and I ended up with the question.

How many time must I fire paint randomly out of a srayiing device to end up with a replica of the sistine chapel?  Or how am i really supposed to believe that random events just came together to create such a fragile and interlocking set of systems as I currently live in? 

BUT, OTOH, IF there really is a creator, how far above my paygrade or capabilty of understanding is his mind? So far above as to be incomprehensible? You'd end up with people having all sorts of stories about God and what he wants and what we should do to get along in his creation...

For me the fact that every Christian I've ever engaged with has more resilience and sangunity with lifes problems than the athiests or "make it up as you go long types" that I've met (your experience may vary, I can only play the cards I've been dealt) and are generally (from my perspective) more "deal capable" and reliable bodes well for it as a system to turn to when one runs out of ideas. I can also see how a bible written for very primitve goat herding people woudl be full off irrelevant and seemingly false concepts when viewed today, from a totally different perspective, and I'm assuming God did to when he gave us the new deal of christianity. The idea that ONE MAN living a perfect life can make such a huge difference as jesus christ did, is empowering and inspiring. So many of this countries crumbling humanitarian infrastructure was born out of christian ideals, so heck there are many worse ways to live than being a Christian. It won't make me rich though. 

But it has made me happier, and appreciate what I have more. 

Evil works the same way whether it comes from an imp whistering into your ear,or a rap song exhorting you to join "the life". Sorting out the good from the bad is a very hard job sometimes, and having a rule book that has served for literally thousands of years, to use as a guide, doesn't seem such a riscible idea. And you don't need a burning hell to fear, all the evil people I've observed or known are intrinsically messed up and miserable people. All the evil I have tried myself has come with unexpected costs and complications, and ultimately was "best avoided" with the benefit of hindsight although at the time I was so convinced it was a smart way to go...

My God, is pretty unknowable in totality, his plans unguessable, BUT the Christians are 100% right, it is worth making the effort to learn about him. The world makes more sense and seems more "navigable" when you do. And following the basics isn't even so onerous when it comes right down to it, and it leads to a reasonably fullfilled life, with the guarantee of an after life. Our much vaunted science (much vaunted 'cos it works!) gives us about 12 dimensions now, only 4 of which are accessible currenlty to most of us, that leaves plenty of space for demons or an after life or all sorts of other mysteries & entities to hide in...  This life could well be the easy bit, like the visible point on my non existent avatar and the incomprehensible land of dreams may be where you gain limited access to those dimensions.

I do feel a bit sorry for those who really have no basic framework of life given to them at an early age such as my early christian training, or those poor people who were given that advantage and then discarded it in their teens, as they have to whomp up an answer from scratch for every dillemma, adn sometimes life does not give you sufficient time to do the research.. Christianity, hinduism, bhuddism, islam, judaism, all give their children useful and largely true basic life training that fills in the gaps in those awkward little moments  and gives those who need one a reason not to rob and adulterate thier way through life..

Or something.

If you actually dig down into the history back in Joseph’s day you’ll find witnesses who were against Joseph Smith that he didn’t copy from books, was staring in a hat, after David Whitmer left The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints he never denied The Book of Mormon that there’s a testimony of it on his deathbed.

When all what people bring up is compared with what people who knew Joseph, whether they were with or against him refutes all you’ve claimed. If someone helped him produce it why did he need scribes and was looking through a stone in a hat? He educated himself, he did not have the resources to do so, he was often “money-digging,” if he educated himself he would of been able to read a coherent letter. The society rejected Joseph Smith when about 14 before he produced the book, no self help society would accept him.

If you want to get to the history and see what witnesses both for and against Joseph’s claims you’ll find your ideas refuted, I would recommend either “SaintsUnscripted” or “Book of Mormon Central.”

btw concept known as Tower of Babel is all of us together

Each to their own but speaking personally my Christian faith is a great comfort to me. I believe I was made the way I am for a reason and that God has a plan for me and accepts me for who I am. As an autistic person who isnt accepted by the world I find that very comforting. 

You're always very deep, Mariusz!

it was always our purpose

nature introduced us, and made enough of us, so there was always one of us in any group of people

with purpose to induce change, produce variaty of choices, possibilities, options

stir people out of laziness

there are characters in myths and religions, that are us in the essence, we are like Loki for example

maybe there isn't enough of us for so many of lazies now?

I don't think we're a homogenous whole with a single view on anything.  We're individuals and we're all different, like any other sector of the population.   

it's difficult for autistic to pull, that school requires that you master techniques like innuendo,

i don't read body language, so how am I to know what to show?

though I can mimic it well in some situations, sort of performance, played out script,

meaning as well  I cannot modify it depending how the situation changes during it

and anyway it's good  mental exercise to considcer how to do it even if you come out if nothing at least you put it through some reasoning, right?

thats good advice  

I'm non-religious myself. I can't tell if God really exists but I'm not going to deny that possibility either(I'm quite surprised and happy at the same time this is also how the Confucius thinks of spirits & religion). The way I handle religion is to only take in the messages that are valuable to myself from different forms of beliefs while not being completely into a certain group.

I agree i usually say in case like that, not enough data

if data gives few outputs, but no way to decide which  i say dilema require more data

DiffidAnt said:

'there's no explanation, therefore x' is a fallacy

is a question from group with plenty similar ones on IQ tests like

1. None of the stamp collectors is an architect.
2. All the drones are stamp collectors

you forgot one explanation

someone/somegroup conned him into doing it, so he he sweara and believes it 100% and he indeed is innocent in this

that is popular church's apporoach to a case of producing miracles

Regardless of what people believe, I would encourage critical thinking on this topic (and all others). To say that there's no scientific explanation for how Joseph Smith wrote a book is a big claim. Let me give a few: someone helped him write it, he educated himself, he had interaction with a self help society. There are many others.

I'd also point out that to say: 'there's no explanation, therefore x' is a fallacy- an appeal to ignorance. If there's no explanation for something, the only thing we can reasonably conclude is that we have no explanation.