Social services removing children from parents with ASD

I had my daughter's removed a year ago purely for having aspergers, I am going to fight with all my might to get them back, no one was autism aware on my case and no allowances were made, my whole family have been alienated for over a year including their 20 month old cousin, they have been placed with my youngest daughter's  paternal grandparents so therefore my eldest has no relation to them and they have psychologically abused my daughter's telling them they'd never see their auntie again and that I would be sent to prison, I have looked after the girls from birth on my own with no assistance, I fully intend to take this as far as it can go to get them back, I had a positive parenting assessment also but nevertheless the paternal family to my youngest got granted an SGO, the girls have been there 10 months not a year like the criteria says and they also had no representation yet their opinion was always listened to by the social worker, guardian and judge yet I was bullied for my aspergers.

firstly I am sorry to hear that I am also a autistic adult but black male and have had my daughter adopted due to what id summarise is lack of professional candour and lack of equality and diversity, racism and ostracisation

I would like to outline some major legal documentation alot of local authorities social workers and public authorities dont like to adhere to when interacting with DIFFERENT PEOPLE. 

first thing I will say is get yourself a adult social and have a needs assessment done to identify what your difficulties are and what support u do need with or without children (this should be part of your transition plan being that alot of autistic people have difficulties with transitions and significant life events then having a child would of been such. How was you supported?) 

I would then advise u to google and research on Statutory guidance for local authorities and NHS organisations on the implementation of the adult autism strategy (statutory means schools have an obligation under law to carry out this.)this is in line with the adult autism strategy

if u have had a SEN report when u was a child there should be information already to what support u should have and receive if this support has not been put in place due to lack assessments then all support that was given as a child should be kept in place until new support is put in place and your needs are being met

I would also like u to pay attention to the equality act 2010 which states discrimination by association means any child u have if you are discriminated against then you are to and anyone who you are related to and didnt recevie the support you or they should of received 

the main principle of the children's act is to keep children within their families by all possible means this would include providing support to their parents where that support can be provided.

all social workers have a duty of care o communicate effectively if this was not done effectively due to your autism needs whether they be u need face to face contact only (teams or something if not able) or only written so if they constantly phone u then u put in. complaint as people as this would be a reasonable adjustment that could be made 

you could also look into a advocate who will also help to uphold your rights as a autistic individual this could be from Age uk or via your local authority adult social worker this does not have to be a stranger (professional)but can also be a family or friend or both stranger(professional and family member) who the social worker can interact with you over high flare situations that alot fo them exploit. Due to there lack of knowledge.

ask a social worker the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown. Not many know the difference which in itself is very frightening 

Hopefully, social workers are becoming more aware of autism. If you find yourself facing family law proceedings, you need to get a lawyer who is autism-aware. Your lawyer should be able to get statements and expert witnesses to point out the errors in the authority's assessment. If your child is autistic there should be school reports, assessments, EHCP etc.. If you as a parent are autistic, again you should have assessments and documentation. Please do not try to fight the local authority without a lawyer to argue your case and cross-examine the social worker professionally.

Do NOT rely on Google and websites and try to go it alone. The person who defends himself in court has a fool for a client. Social workers have many years of training and the support of the authority's legal department, and even so, they sometimes get it wrong. Lay advocates can help you with the emotional impact of a social care involvement, but you also need good legal advice.

Social workers do not want to take kids into care. Their managers do not want them to take kids into care unless it is really necessary - getting a case to Family Court costs thousands of pounds, and the cost of keeping kids in care is a huge strain on the authority's budget.

At the end of the day, it is the judge who decides that the threshold for significant harm has been met and that a Care Order is necessary. The default is the Court will not make an order if there is any other way of resolving the matter - the " no order principle"

neurodivergent I meant 

also statutory guidance is not optional. The law says councils or the NHS must be able to demonstrate they have a good reason for departing from guidelines when they do, and it costs too much is not a good enough reason. They can be taken to court for departing from guidelines.

Sorry I find it difficult to follow your argument.

NAS76265 said:

alot of people think there experts and only have level 6 5 or even 4 qualifications but I went to uni is acceptable to some people but as stated an expert is not only someone with the level 8 qualification and understanding but someone who also has numerous years experience where they have made numerous professionally qualified decisions with in their professional expertise is my perception of a "expert".

well as an academic of course I do think academic research is good evidence of expertise however I won't say other experience can't be as well. But for the purposes of standards in healthcare it really should be experience that can be empirically measured.

NAS76265 said:

Autism is not a psychiatric disorder please be careful of malicious communication and publishing information the is not correct autism is a neurotypical condition

Autism is not a psychiatric disorder but autistic people very definitely do not have a neurotypical condition. Not every time a doctor has to become involved in something will be an example of a disease. Intersex conditions are an example. I don't think most intersex people would consider it a disease but they often need a doctors help in explaining the implications of their variant biology to a world that isn't used to it.

statutory guidance for local authorities and NHS organisations on the implementation of the adult autism strategy also highlights target audiences many people do not adhere to statutory guidance 

from what I understand is the local authorities responsibility to 

as I said my files are in a mess but here are 4 cases towards the start of the list that may interest you.

www.bailii.org/.../format.cgi

www.bailii.org/.../format.cgi

www.bailii.org/.../format.cgi

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCOP/2010/1549.html&query=(autism+OR+aspergers)+AND+(%22family+court%22+OR+%22mental+capacity+act%22)

As I said I have 304 cases relating to competency / family court matters and autistic people to go through. It's not an easy thing to pick out the relevant cases.

I am interested in the Law Reports, please.  Just three or four for a start ...

citations to? law, statutory guidelines, case law?

Ian said:

Good point, thanks. Of course, if the FME is a local GP on call who did one six month rotation in psychiatry twenty years ago, and knows very little about autism, we are back to square one. The FME's role is to establish whether the prisoner is "fit to be detained" and whether the prisoner is "vulnerable" and needs an appropriate adult under PACE.

I should hope a GP with even a cursory knowledge of mental health would ask about mental health disorders or developmental conditions, like autism, in any such interview. He should also routinely access patient files in determining fitness which if autism has been formally diagnosed should note this.

Ian said:

The FME is > not allowed < to "interview" the children, as his role is not to gather evidence for either party.

No but if there were a (statutory) rule saying a specialist must be allowed to interview the children the police will have to accommodate it whether they want to or not and trust that the specialists professionalism will help avoid contamination. Likewise the need to interview both children and parent together can be (formulated in law to be) at the specialists discretion.

Ian said:

Many of us believe that autism is a learning difference and not a psychiatric disorder. Social workers are trained to use a person-centred strengths model and to regard "disability" as a social construct.

Ok technically its a neurological condition (in the same sence that pregnancy is a gynaecological condition) but the availability of neurologists and their experience of face to face medicine is such that psychiatrists are the next best thing.

Ian said:

I have worked alongside some pretty weird psychiatrists in my time. One AMHP told me that their team had one psychiatrist who would sign off most applications, and another who very rarely agreed to any request. Which psychiatrist they called affected the result.

True but I'm not suggesting any psychiatrist would do. It a psychiatrist / psychiatric nurse with specific training in autism. Bear in mind the autism act guidelines say "Local Authority, NHS bodies and NHS Foundation Trusts should: Ensure that both general awareness and specialist autism training is provided on an ongoing basis and that new staff or staff whose roles change are given the opportunity to update their autism training and knowledge;" I'm suggesting at least one person from the area mental health crisis team should have had said "specialist autism training" and that the legal requirement should be to call a person with a background in psychiatric medicine who has has specialist (as opposed to general awareness) autism training.

Ian said:

Community Mental Health Teams work mainly with severe depressive and psychotic conditions. Autism services are often associated with Learning Disability Teams and psychiatrists tend not to make out of hours visits in the community.

Well if community mental health teams don't have at least one member with special autism training then they are ignoring best practice and the simple remedy is to change the 'should' in the text I quoted to 'must.'

Ian said:

As an expert witness, this is a sobering thought when one is about to be cross-examined by a barrister in court!

You can often tell the true expert. They're the one willing to say "I don't know,' or admit areas of uncertainty rather than trying to act as if there are no bounds to their knowledge.

Thanks Peter.  Could you publish one or two citations? I would like to look them up ...

Good point, thanks. Of course, if the FME is a local GP on call who did one six month rotation in psychiatry twenty years ago, and knows very little about autism, we are back to square one. The FME's role is to establish whether the prisoner is "fit to be detained" and whether the prisoner is "vulnerable" and needs an appropriate adult under PACE.

The FME will examine the children, document any injuries and if necessary refer them to hospital or the family GP after emergency treatment if required. If a safeguarding concern is raised the children must be interviewed on camera by a police officer or social worker who is "Achieving Best Evidence" trained. This is to prevent the evidence from being "contaminated" by the questioner inadvertently introducing new information. The FME is > not allowed < to "interview" the children, as his role is not to gather evidence for either party.

Many of us believe that autism is a learning difference and not a psychiatric disorder. Social workers are trained to use a person-centred strengths model and to regard "disability" as a social construct. The example I use is: Let's pretend that I want to build a house for wheelchair users. The doorways are three feet wide and five feet high, and all the normally bipedal visitors hit their heads on the door frame. Neurodiversity is about developmental disorders, not mental illness as such. (Although the Mental Capacity Act is a bit confused on this point.) 

I have worked alongside some pretty weird psychiatrists in my time. One AMHP told me that their team had one psychiatrist who would sign off most applications, and another who very rarely agreed to any request. Which psychiatrist they called affected the result. Community Mental Health Teams work mainly with severe depressive and psychotic conditions. Autism services are often associated with Learning Disability Teams and psychiatrists tend not to make out of hours visits in the community. Typically there is a waiting list for an outpatient appointment to see an autism specialist in a clinic setting.

I have worked in health and social services for more than forty years and every day I realise how much I have still to learn. Somebody described an expert as : " x is an unknown quantity, and spurt is a drip under pressure". As an expert witness, this is a sobering thought when one is about to be cross-examined by a barrister in court!

My own neurodiversity and many years' training mean that I tend to be quite pedantic about my work ... any offence is unintentional. Likewise I accept that for many people here their own experience colours their perception of social workers and other professionals. Believe me, as neurodivergent social workers some of us are just as frustrated by the ignorance of some of our colleagues!

Ian said:

What is an "autism expert" - a neurotypical social worker who has done a course? An autistic social worker who is an "expert by experience"?

I was thinking more about a trained psychiatric nurse or better yet psychiatrist who's done a course in autism. Perhaps someone from the local NHS liaison psychiatry team (yes I realise not all CCGs have one but in my view they should be required to by law)

Ian said:

To provide 24/7 cover, allowing for training, leave, sickness and shift rotation you would need five or six workers.

Well strictly speaking the mental health crisis team needs to have some one on 24/7 but unlike a section 46 an epo needs court approval. It can't be done quite so quickly. 12 hours notice should be ample to get a specialist in to speak to parents / children prior to an EPO.

Ian said:

Mum is going to spend a night in the cells. They call the social worker to the police station. Mum refuses to answer questions or agree to the kids being accommodated. That means a s.46 72-hour police protection order. The kids will need an emergency placement, so the SW does the paperwork and arranges for transport from the police station to a foster carer. Let the Safeguarding Team sort it out in the morning. If you were the "autism specialist" what would you have done differently?  I will use this as a training scenario for my students.

Assuming the mum is autistic what I'd expect in that situation is that the Forensic Medical Examiner will take a full medical history at interview at which point autism will be raised as an issue and the specialist will be called for and arrive the following day. They will conduct an interview the mother at the police station. Render an opinion as to the impact autism may have played in the previous nights events. They will then interview the children. If the police choose to release the mother the same day and she is in a cogent state the specialist will then interview the mother with the children. In either case the specialist will make a recommendation regarding the appropriateness of an EPO. Only after this may the EPO be applied for which of course means all of this must take place within that 72 hour window.

In practice what this means is that (1) a mental health professional will be needed to attend as a matter of urgency, much as they might in some sort of mental health crisis, for example where some one is threatening to do them self harm. And (2) the process of applying for an EPO (if that is appropriate) may be delayed for a day or 2 possibly till towards the end of that 72 hour window.

There have been many cases where the Family Courts have got it wrong - Satanic abuse, Munchausen's Syndrome, parents with autism, learning disabilities or mental health concerns. My point was that it was the COURT that makes the decision, a social worker makes an application. People here are making derogatory statements about social workers as a profession, and that is unfair. Just as one can't say " all autistic people are [insert] ... "  neither is it fair to say all social workers are [insert].

I like the idea of an "autistic expert" on call 24/7 ... but it isn't going to happen any time soon. There is a shortage of social workers. There are not enough AMHPs to "section" people with mental health difficulties. The police complain about delays when duty social workers are called in as "appropriate adults" for juveniles and people with learning difficulties. I once finished a visit in Kent at 4 pm only to be called to a police station in East London to act as an Appropriate Adult for one of my clients, and eventually got home at 3 am the next day.  Sometimes there are two or three duty social workers on duty at night for a whole borough. That is one reason why police use their emergency powers

What is an "autism expert" - a neurotypical social worker who has done a course? An autistic social worker who is an "expert by experience"?  An autistic social worker would still need to have a specialism such as child protection, adult safeguarding, Care Act assessments or whatever - so you would need an "autism expert" who also has safeguarding experience. To provide 24/7 cover, allowing for training, leave, sickness and shift rotation you would need five or six workers. They would need supervisors, admin support, a base to work from, etc. To have four "autism experts" on-call 24/7 would need a team of about thirty staff and a cost in the region of £1.5m

Imagine being the police are called to premises at three in the morning. Is the person "kicking off " under the influence of drink or drugs? Mentally ill? Autistic?   They look at the screaming terrified kids and mum, who has just hit a police officer, in handcuffs. One police officer wants to use s.136 Mental Heath Act and take mum to the mental hospital. The officer who got punched trying to restrain her wants to arrest mum for assault on police. The police decide to arrest her and let the Custody Sergeant call the Forensic Medical Examiner to assess mum, and check the kids for injury.  Mum is going to spend a night in the cells. They call the social worker to the police station. Mum refuses to answer questions or agree to the kids being accommodated. That means a s.46 72-hour police protection order. The kids will need an emergency placement, so the SW does the paperwork and arranges for transport from the police station to a foster carer. Let the Safeguarding Team sort it out in the morning. If you were the "autism specialist" what would you have done differently?  I will use this as a training scenario for my students.

Well my point of view is from the opposite end of the legal system, reviewing case law judgments. Only when cases come to the attention of higher courts and receive anonymised published judgments do we really have a window as to what goes on when autistic people do have their children taken away by the state. What I have seen in those judgments is not reassuring.

Judges often quote sections of evidence given by social workers or psychiatrists and what they quote and how they infer from it makes me wonder if those involved have a good handle on autism and if that's being transmitted to the judges in their reports. I do actually have a list of 304 judgments relating to autism and the right to respect for ones family life that in a perfect world I'd like to go through and do some sort of systematic review on but unfortunately that's rather a mammoth undertaking.

All I can say is a brief reading of a few here and there has raised concerns.

The police protection and EPO are emergency powers and are meant to take a child to a place of safety pending enquiries, as I am sure you know.  My experience from working in the Multiagency Safeguarding Hub is that it was rare get a completely unknown child in police protection, and usually it is something like the parent/carer injured in a car crash or taken ill, a parent has been arrested as drunk and incapable, etc..  In most cases the police attending an incident where children are present will inform MASH but not remove the child if a parent or other appropriate adult can keep the child safe. In domestic violence situations, if they can get the perpetrator to leave rather than remove the child, they will.

Often families are known to services through Early Help. Usually the parent would be offered parenting classes and other support. Where the child is autistic there are specialist courses for parents such as Early Bird. The first intervention is often a Team Around the Family and the lead professional would not necessarily be a social worker - often it would be an autism specialist from Early Years or a specialist education worker.

If there were concerns, the usual next step was a s.17 Children In Need meeting and a CIN Plan. If the planned support was not working, the case might be escalated for a s.47 safeguarding investigation. That might involve a Child Protection Conference and a decision to put in a Child Protection Plan.  Again, this would be reviewed and if the interventions were not working, accommodation might be considered. Usually we could get parents to agree to voluntary accommodation under s.20, and only "go legal" if the parent did not co-operate and there was a risk of "significant harm" to the child.

Some parents may be known to Adult Services, but not everybody wants a Care Act assessment, and of those that do, some may not meet the threshold for services inder the Care Act. Often I have met parents who I suspect may have additional needs  (autism, learning difficulties, mental health difficulties) but who choose not to share that information. Many parents "struggle along" with minimal support from family and friends until something happens.

That's not strictly speaking true though is it. Many of the cases where things 'go wrong' I suspect are those where social workers inappropriately invoke section 44.1.a or get the police to remove a child for them under section 46 and then the police apply for an epo under section 44.1.a because thats what the social worker told them to do. In these cases the child has been removed long before a child protection conference takes place.

Social workers often come into peoples lives at the worst moments. Bereavements, illnesses, accidents and injuries. Placed under stress particularly by some one they view as hostile and interfering does it really take much to make an autistic adult snap at a social worker, to seem obstructive or abusive. Or even if they don't how many social workers can make the distinction between the atypical presentation of stress or grief in an autistic person in a moment of crisis and so called 'red flags.' That's how an autistic parent ends up having their kids carted off by a police man before there are any meetings or lawyers involved.

In my view no EPO in relation to an autistic parents child should ever be granted with out an autism expert interviewing both child and parent first preferably separately and together. Of course to implement this practically requires every local authority to have an autism expert on call at all times.

My point was that the lawyer needs to raise the issue at the care hearing. Cross-examine the social worker and ask the SW their experience and knowledge about ASC. Refer to any diagnostic assessments etc. Ask the SW to explain their risk assessment.  Raise concerns with the CAFCASS guardian. Ask for permission to instruct an expert at the Directions Hearing. (That's where the judge meets parties a week or two before the hearing and says what he wants to be done, by whom and when.)

Even better, raise the issue at the Child Protection Conference. The parent should bring an advocate. Most authorities use the "Signs of Safety" model, and all the parties at the conference, including the parent, get to have their say. Other professionals (child's school, mother's carer/key worker/supporter, school nurse manager) will also be able to have their say at the conference. Each professional's opinions should be strengths-based and present the positives as well as the negatives.

There is not one social worker involved - there will be at least the social worker who did the investigation, their senior supervisor, the CAFCASS guardian and the Independent Chair.  Often there will have been Early Help professionals involved with the family. Finally, the local authority's legal department will review the case before applying for a Care Order, and the "no order" principle will apply unless the "significant harm" criteria are met. Getting a Care Order involves a lot of work ... the myth that a single social worker can just snatch kids and put them in care is precisely that, a myth.

Another important aspect to consider is generally the parents lawyer won’t get an actual autism expert in until after a child has been taken into care. So the court may have an autism experts opinion on the autistic parent and even their opinion on the child but they generally won’t have a report from the autistic expert on the parents interaction with the child. 
meanwhile in their other hand they’ll have a scary report from a social worker about how the autistic parent seemed oblivious to the child’s physical or emotional needs or didn’t reciprocate the child’s affection. An autism expert would understand that concern doesn’t always register on an autistic persons face while they are concerned. That a parent apparently not showing attention to their child might be compartmentalisation where they are putting back dealing with their children’s non urgent  needs until after the social worker has left because just having the social worker their is mentally exhausting and they don’t want to split their attention unless it’s an emergency.

but by construction an autism expert doesn’t get to make that assessment because by the point they turn up the child has been removed.

you mention assessments any autistic adult should have a needs assessment this was not done for myself I was then refused an advocate by the local authority and the court due to social workers manipulating professionals to think they had done their job done but in realistically they had not adhered to the statutory guidance as u know there for professionals to adhere to the law so when they dont interact with family and friends or offer advates or notice an individuals stressed behaviour .

I have not met a social worker who knows the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown I dont even feel like talking to u u think you experience is relevant I have 35 qualifications and already proven u take things personally on a autistic website interacting with autistic individuals who are probaly highly emotional are u antagonising behaviours 

you mention assessments any autistic adult should have a needs assessment this was not done for myself I was then refused an advocate by the local authority and the court due to social workers manipulating professionals to think they had done their job done but in realistically they had not adhered to the statutory guidance as u know there for professionals to adhere to the law so when they dont interact with family and friends or offer advates or notice an individuals stressed behaviour .

I have not met a social worker who knows the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown I dont even feel like talking to u u think you experience is relevant I have 35 qualifications and already proven u take things personally on a autistic website interacting with autistic individuals who are probaly highly emotional are u antagonising behaviours