A proposal for the resolution of the Irish border re: Brexit

nexus9 said:

Her Chequers paper also begs the question, why do it.

Because many MPs voted to have the referendum and now feel obliged to interpret it, even if they didn't have a clear idea of what the question was beforehand. Was the paper actually published? It seems to have been criticised by many, but it does seem to attempt to satisfy my '2' above 'The UK stays in a negotiated customs union with the EU, at least as regards goods'. Am I the only one not understanding the substance of the criticism? Personally I'd prefer our own imports to meet safety and environmental standards too, but that's not the criticism I'd heard, and it would be ironic if the EU27 insisted on that on UK residents' behalf (or rather because they don't want the risks of UK imports being repurposed).

I should probably back off from this topic, because I'm not an expert. In my eyes it's relatively inconsequential anyway compared to real stuff like climate change or military AI.

Have you been reading Sylvie Krin in Private Eye? Sometimes I wish ministers were clever enough to conspire in that way. Alas, their main talent seems to be for achieving power.

It would explain a lot. Her Chequers paper also begs the question, why do it. This is hardly an appealing alternative. To anyone. 

Another variant is where the Tories continue their buffoonery into a general election, which they deliberately lose so that Labour takes up the poison chalice of delivering the will of the people.

The tories would then aim to snatch power back from Labour once a disgruntled population has vented its ire on the left, making them unelectable for another generation.

I too suspect that the politicians have little intent of delivering the referendum result.

Amongst several possibilities, there's one where the Tories are simply putting on a show, until such time as the country is offered a cataclysmic leap off a cliff, where the full implications are clear; one wonders whether planning for this sort of thing is exactly the kind of conversations she has with other leaders:

"How's it going?" smirked Angela.

Theresa let out a theatrical sigh and rolled her eyes heavenward. "Well, of course we're not going to leave, Angela. The problem is that David has set the cat among the pigeons so we're all going to have to pretend to be leaving whilst we work to show the country that leaving isn't what they actually want at all".

"Sounds like a plan - but who is going to sit in cabinet with you? I mean, your're going to need some utter clowns that will be left with zero reputation and credibility; some buffoons who enrage the people in the short-term with their inability to deliver the referendum result they were offered by David... no one with half a brain is going to take that gig!"

"Actually, Boris has agreed to be Foreign Secretary", said Theresa, smiling sweetly.

A lawyer told me that he is sure all the delaying tactics and infighting are symptomatic of the fact the government all know deep down thay Brexit is not feasible and will not actually go ahead. What marvellous optimism! He seems to forget how powerful an impulse the need to 'save face' is. Also that some unscrupulous minds want the UK as a little America, no human rights, no employee rights, no NHS but continued imperialist ambition, the like of which we still keep seeing in action, as others here have already illustrated

Cassandro said:

One suspects the UK Government is now planning for 3, but doesn't want to admit it yet.

What? In the same way that Cameron ensured civil servants had fully developed plans for both referendum outcomes? www.theguardian.com/.../david-cameron-accused-gross-negligence-brexit-contingency-plans

Which of course demonstrates just how totally out of touch our supposed betters really were. 

Both sides of the house have had their heads so far up their own backsides for years that they appear to have been blissfully unaware that the country was split 50/50 on Europe, and seems to continue to be so. 

Ergo, shurely Cassandro's option 1 risks a second English civil war?

nexus9 said:

There could be a return of the Troubles.

Maybe, but I doubt it. I don't think the so-called loyalist troublemakers are as well organised as the republicans. 

Besides, once it becomes a united Ireland, any security issues are Ireland's concern. 

I like this.  Gary Younge writing in The Guardian:

'The purpose of the Brexit referendum was to quell the decades-long psycho-drama within the Conservative Party.  Not only did it achieve the opposite, it spread the infection to the whole country.  In negotiating with Brussels, the party is hovering between delusional and deranged, bluster and buffoonery.  Insisting on concessions that have not been offered; suggesting solutions that have already been rejected; showing up to negotiations with nothing to offer; refusing to concede anything, only to capitulate to everything.  If it were a dog you'd put it down; if it were a wedding, you'd call it off.  Not only for their own sake, but to prevent the harm they might do to others.'

DongFeng5 said:

Discuss...

You may want to discuss with an autistic expert on Brexit ('Brexpautist?'), Nicholas Stone
https://www.quora.com/Why-has-Brexit-resulted-in-a-huge-increase-in-support-for-a-united-Ireland

There seem to the following logical possibilities still:

1. The UK remains in the EU
2. The UK stays in a negotiated customs union with the EU, at least as regards goods
3. There is a customs border in Ireland
4. There is a customs border 'in the North Sea'
5. 'Irexit', the Republic also leaves the EU
6. The customs union, or ability of the EU to impose standards on imported goods, is ended

The Republic won't agree to 3 or 5, the EU27 won't agree to 6, the DUP won't agree to 4, the Conservative Party apparently can't agree on 2, and if it's not 1 or 2, the UK has to decide where its customs border is. 1 seems unlikely without a change of UK government or second referendum.

One suspects the UK Government is now planning for 3, but doesn't want to admit it yet. I would hope that wouldn't lead to resurgence of war in Ireland just based on ordinary people having too much to lose, but then as ever the ordinary people aren't in control. I would have thought the 'backstop' proposal is a safer route to 4, with or without reunification.

If only the whole Brexit were that simple. The whole thing is a complete and utter disaster IMO.

There could be a return of the Troubles. The whole of Europe could sink into a new recession. Putin, Bannon and the rest must be dancing with glee over how easy it was to push enough buttons to get the results they desired: a weakened Europe. Divide and rule. 

I have started taking steps towards getting dual citizenship. I had been worried because a lawyer had told me I might lose my British citizenship, but have been assured by many, including the town hall I went to today as well as the British Embassy and a forum for those also seeking naturalisation, that that is not true. I do not like being a bargaining chip, a pawn on a board I never chose to be on and never had any say over. I am getting my birth certificate officially translated, have a 24-page form to fill in, which I have not looked at yet, but will have to start now. There is an exam on history and dates to work towards, though I have heard once you hit 60 it is not necessary and I will be 60 in the new year. 

Take the Northern out and there is a Paul McCartney and Wings song which was banned by the BBC for some reason ..  

That still leaves the rest of the shambles of Brexit, though.