Hans Asperger

Lots of western history describes the war as starting on 3 September 1939, but actually it was already underway by mid-1937:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

Who is anti-semitic? Unless some posts have been deleted since I last looked at this thread, I have seen no evidence to support that apparent accusation?

All of you are of course entirely free to choose which terms you wish to use, based on your own conscience.

I will continue to use Asperger.

Some people may complain that this "honours" someone associated with an appalling regime, but from my point of view it is nothing to do with honour, and everything to do with maintaining established historical fact.

If Asperger (regardless of how evil he may have been) was the first person to identify the condition, it should carry his name. To do otherwise is a very troubling alternative, because I believe it to be a slippery slope towards a "1984-esque" world where we are constantly airbrushing history:

"We have always been at war with Eastasia".

Consider this:

If we reject Asperger, then by implication his henchman Georg Frankl is similarly tainted?

Frankl switched from working with Asperger to working with Kanner in 1938. Although 1938 is before the invasion of Poland, it was well after the April 1933 beginnings of discrimination against Jewish people. It seems Frankl even stuck around with Asperger for roughly three years after the 1935 establishment of the so called Nuremberg Laws. Therefore Frankl was assisting the regime as a collaborator. Since Frankl went to assist Kanner in 1938, if you believe that Asperger's work is tainted, so must Kanner's, because of his close association with an apparent collaborator?

This is an unworkable way of thinking, because there will be no end to it:

1. We won't be able to talk about Roman baths, because the Romans also persecuted Christians, had slaves and enjoyed gladiatorial combat. Their policy of decimation was inhumane.
2. We can't describe anything as British, because the British Empire did terrible things (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a7612176.html).
3. We can't describe anything as American, because the state was founded in racist ideology. Jefferson's claim in the United States Declaration of Independence "that all men are created equal" is misunderstood by modern readers. Jefferson "owned" roughly 600 slaves in his lifetime. Therefore, the words in the declaration penned by him actually meant WHITE MEN, i.e. not men of any other colour, nor women...

Yes, the psychiatrists may have been deceiving themselves regarding Asperger's character. He wasn't strictly speaking a Nazi in the sense that he wasn't a member of the party.  You're of course correct that 'nice' and charming people can still be responsible for great evil - and the Nazi bureaucracy did keep a lot of records showing that evil. There is some limited evidence of Asperger using anti-Semitic language, but yes the main charge is of approving the sending of disabled children to their death.  We can no longer believe that he was 'actively saving vulnerable children’s lives' and opposing the system.

What we can do is reject the classification of people into worthy and unworthy based on intellectual characteristics. We're all autistic together.

Casindro I have read the interesting article in the Guardian and it says that  Lorna Wing only met Hans Asperger once and she said she is sure he was not a Nazi. With due respect to Lorna Wing  I do not know how she can tell by one meeting what Hans Asperger's actions and thoughts were during the Hitler period.  Goering seemed charming but the Nuremburg  Court did not go by outward appearances they went by documents  Stalin appeared a very nice man but he killed millions of people.  I want to remind you that Hans Asperger is accused of  sending disabled Children to their death in a clinic  not with the murder of Jews.

Yes it might be true that Hans Asperger saved some Autistic people at the higher functioning end.  I have sent  E Mails to Carol at the NAS my views.  I do not think we can do anything in this forum.  I will not tolerate Anti-Semitic personal remarks and I will E Mail the moderator.  I do not think the Police would do anything as they would say Deepthought is Autistic and does not know what offence his remarks can cause.

Arran said:

I'm intrigued to know why the media have overreacted. Has Herwig Czech gone as far as informing media outlets or press agencies about the publication of this paper?

Here's the press release: https://www.biomedcentral.com/about/press-centre/science-press-releases/19-04-18

Not every paper in Molecular Autism will get such a fanfare. I think scientific press releases are put out partly to promote journals and academic institutions, usually more so than individual researchers, when they've got something they think the press will be interested in. The Guardian I fear has become a bit more sensationalist under Katherine Viner and it's been said that what sells papers is royalty/celebrity, murder and sex (preferably all together). You could add to the list a morbid fascination with ***Natzis and certain medical conditions (they had a depression non-story on the front cover yesterday).

Here's an informed article with more depth than the Guardian: www.theatlantic.com/.../

David said:

Do you want to be regarded as one of Hans Asperger people?

David, as an individual you can identify with whichever diagnostic system you find more culturally befitting for you, just as any other individual can identify with which ever diagnostic system that is personally more befitting for them.

Be compassionate with yourself, and show respect for others.

Arran said:

I'm intrigued to know why the media have overreacted.

Well Autism awareness has recently increased somewhat due to this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3502928/EVERY-one-autistic-spectrum-experience-key-symptoms-just-varying-degrees.html

As covered this scientific publication:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2017.4

And there has been long standing argument anyway about Hans Asperger not being as honourable as people thought, but until recently there had been no available evidence to support such claims.

Perhaps read at least the start of Czech's paper on the already above but here again provided link:

https://molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6

Arran said:

Has Herwig Czech gone as far as informing media outlets or press agencies about the publication of this paper?

The story was sourced from:

https://molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6

By Kate Connelly in Berlin as follows:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/19/hans-asperger-aided-and-supported-nazi-programme-study-says

It is most likely the reporter found the paper herself or receives new publishings anyway. You could contact the paper to inquire perhaps if otherwise.

David said:

I must admit I have not studied all the issues re Hans Asperger and I do not know if he saved anyone.   People on the Higher functioning end do not get as much attention and there is the Asperger Foundation if it is still there.

In contrast to the present day regarding the least socially functional receiving state assistance ~ Hans Asperger made and won the case not to exterminate patients that would prove useful to the third reich, and rather assist these patients to develop their higher functional abilities instead.

Cassandro said:

Well it sounds like the end of the conversation.

The end of one post starts or enables the beginning of another.

Cassandro said:

To me 'semantics' means 'meaning'.  It's a part of grammar that is not to do with syntax but the logical structure of a what a sentence conveys.

Being that as according to Google Dictionary:

Semantics is the linguistic and philosophical study of meaning.

Syntax is the set of rules, principles, and processes that govern the structure of sentences in a given language, usually including word order.

Grammar is the set of structural rules governing the composition of clauses, phrases, and words in any given natural language.

Semantics in the concrete or objective sense involves using Syntax and Grammar equally to establish meaning.

Cassandro said:

However, some people (I think particularly in the US) use it to mean 'splitting hairs'.

In the abstract or subjective sense, Semantics is used subjectively to replace and displace the concrete or objective term:

Sophistry ~ the use of clever but false arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.

Sophistry can also be used as reference by which to apply the concrete use of semantics, syntax and grammar ~ in order not to manipulate, but instead to inform.

Sophistry then involves what is not to done in terms of deception, and semantics therefore what is ~ in terms of information.

Cassandro said:

I suspect Cloudy Mountains and Deepthought were using it in almost opposite senses.

Yes, I from the inclusive perspective of integration, or holistic outcomes, in terms of being pro-positive ~ i.e. the continuation of Frith's career.

And CM from the exclusive perspective of disintegration, or catastrophic outcomes, in terms of being pro-negative ~ i.e. the obstruction of Frith's career.

Cassandro said:

For the substantive point, I don't think this is about the modern-day researchers much.  There's no reason a mental health worker or a journalist should know everything about history.  I don't think it's about use of 'scientific' information obtained with coercion even.  It's really a question about whether we want to continue to almost 'honour' someone about whom new material has come to light. 

I do not myself honour people in terms of using diagnostic criteria or practical apparatus that has been developed. If something works well, I make good use of it, and thereby honour the dead by instead honouring the living, and all that.

Cassandro said:

By the way, I don't think DSM-V dropping 'Asperger Syndrome' is related to history, since that was decided some time before the latest publications

Although the concrete historical data of Czechs paper was really good, it was not relevant to excluding Asperger's Syndrome as a diagnostic term, as that began in the USA with Autism Spectrum Disorder (or ASD) by way of the DSM-5 in 2013.

Czech's paper has though become rather relevant for some to drop the term now though.

Cassandro said:

It's more that 'Asperger Syndrome' was always intended as a stepping stone to enlarge the diagnostic categories.

Lorna Wing described her intention for using the diagnostic classification of 'Asperger's Syndrome' as follows:

The many patterns of abnormal behaviour that cause diagnostic confusion include one originally described by the Austrian psychiatrist, Hans Asperger (1944, 1968, 1979). The name he chose for this pattern was 'autistic psychopathy' using the latter word in the technical sense of an abnormality of personality. This has led to misunderstanding because of the popular tendency to equate psychopathy with sociopathic behaviour. For this reason, the neutral term Asperger Syndrome is to be preferred and will be used here.

http://www.mugsy.org/wing2.htm

David said:

so we do not want to give the Germans and Austrians recognition during the Nazi era.

Who is "we" in this context, please?

Cassandro said:

two friends: one tells you he's about to have a vasectomy, the other he's about to kill himself

Happiness?

(by the way, that's a false analogy because in your example both actions are instigated by the subject's own free will). 

Perhaps a better analogy would be:

A nasty so-and-so grabs you and it seems clear they want to kill you - what do you do next?

A nasty so-and-so grabs you and cheerfully declares they're about to interfere with your "bits". After you've woken up (if they bothered with anaesthetic) you realise they meant what they said. What do you do next?

I didn't say it was OK, but yes I think sterilisation is not as evil as killing (two friends: one tells you he's about to have a vasectomy, the other he's about to kill himself - how do you react?). I wasn't sure if you were serious. There was a big scandal about eugenic sterilisation was practised in Sweden into the 1970s, I believe.

Just because X is bad, and Y is bad, does not mean you can't say both are bad, but X is worse.

Let's have an argument... or not.

So you're saying that forced sterilisation in keeping with pervasive 20th century eugenic ideals was kind of okay, but definitely not as evil as killing people?

Sorry, I entirely disagree (but respect your freedom to hold an alternate view). 

Forced sterilisation is entirely equivalent to the "works" of Josef Mengele, as far as I can see. 

Yes the causes of the Second World War are complex but it certainly was not a Jewish War..  I must admit I have not studied all the issues re Hans Asperger and I do not know if he saved anyone.   People on the Higher functioning end do not get as much attention and there is the Asperger Foundation if it is still there.

Cassandro said:

I'd agree the media seem to have over-reacted

I'm intrigued to know why the media have overreacted. Has Herwig Czech gone as far as informing media outlets or press agencies about the publication of this paper?

I think Asperger was working in the 'grey zone', as described in Neurotribes.  For a particularly disturbing dramatisation of 'kill or be killed', see the film Son of Saul.

Thanks for the reply. I think AS has been folded into autism already as regards most services. Since autistic people are extremely varied in what they need help with, just making a distinction on the basis of IQ or use of speech does not seem helpful to me.

The lack of services is a function largely of legislation (Think Autism guidance, and Care Act) and funding. It is probably true that putting resources into autism would be more than compensated by reduced spending in other departments. However, the resources need to go into autism services before that happens, and the decision needs to be made as far up the chain (in local and central government) as possible.

AS would have been seen as less complex support needs than Kanner syndrome/autistic disorder anyway. Pretty much everyone previously with an AS diagnosis would under DSM-V be seen as 'ASD Level 1', that is requiring support, but not substantial support.

It was very much a kill or be killed culture in Austria at the time...

I can't help wondering whether his alleged Nazi credentials following the research of Herwig Czech were pure theatre in order to cover his back and deceive the powers that be. Such behavioural traits may have been more desirable than fleeing Austria at the time.

Asperger was not in charge of the involuntary so-called 'euthanasia' of disabled people, but not investigating the consequences of his actions would have been a crime, morally speaking. As I said, I haven't read the paper in full, but can a case still be made that his autistic patients without a learning disability would have been killed if it were not for his clinic?