Hans Asperger

I don't know if you still care, because you said this about 5 years ago, but he might not have been able to. His co-workers openly supported the *** and it's a very difficult decision to just pick up and leave, Especially because he had patients to take care of. Not to mention if he got caught, he might have faced a horrible outcome, himself.

I'm a terrible person, I really enjoy the vulgar puns..

The first person to identify it seems to have been a Soviet doctor. Unfortunately she was a Ukrainian Jew so Asperger wasn't going to refer to her research.

I hate the term Aspergers. I refuse to be identified by it for this reason, along with the fact it lends itself to vulgar puns.

I can't claim to know all the facts or what he was thinking, but I imagine him choosing not to flee was actually a choice to stay put and protect as many people as he could. Had he fled, what protection could he offer his patients from those who would eradicate them without a second thought?

I'm not saying that's a fact, just how I think he approached the issue at the time. Sometimes I think I'm in a similar predicament.

We know that the *** are not the only people to have killed people.

More to the point I have done more research and discovered that before Hans Asperger a Russian Neurologist wrote about something similar in 1926 he was called Grunya Sukhareva may be the Syndrome should be named after him instead. I would still prefer Wing Syndrome.

But the US and Canada abused psychiatry too, in the name of ideology. Look up the story of Dr Ewen Cameron. That is a pretty chilling tale

Cassandro said:

Glad it made you smile - it was a deliberate reference both to Georg and Anni Frankl (who fled Germany before the war), and to our reputation for blunt honesty

The deliberate reference to the Frankl's was part of the smile factor for me ~ with the smile content involving their romance starting at the University of Vienna in the 1920s, which I started reading about (on account of Czech's paper) from John E Robison's 2016 paper: Kanner, Asperger, and Frankl: A third man at the genesis of the autism diagnosis:

https://www.wm.edu/sites/neurodiversity/images/Robison%20Autism%20Article.pdf

If that is or has not already been of interest perhaps.

Cassandro said:

Dropping the name 'Asperger' would be nowhere near as severe as editing people from history.

Dropping the name 'Asperger' is though editing the identity of someone from written history.

Cassandro said:

Harvey Weinstein is not going to be edited from the history of cinema, but it's just that we're unlikely to name an award after him now, unless it's ironic and for something nefarious.

I do not relate with how it is an honour for people to have their name mentioned in relation to their work ~ awards as honours for a person's work; yes I relate with that no problems. But dropping peoples names from 'their' work ~ I am not into that personally.

Cassandro said:

By the way, both, it's Oskar Schindler. Otto Schindler was a rower, according to the unreliable Wikipedia.

Ah ~ pedantic collaboration bonus! Thank you ~ your correction is very much appreciated :-)

It reminds me of the President Waldheim who should not have been president of Austria as he killed Yugoslavs and Serbs. Waldheim when he was president was not let into various countries because of his war time record.

It is speculation but a reasonable assumption that he would have had to refer her to be killed.

I think Susie was badly Autistic. 

I am not suggesting that Asperger enjoyed it.  It is difficult not to obey the law as he might have got killed himself.

David said:

Just think if Susie Wing had been at Hans Asperger's clinic he might have referred her to be murdered.

That's pure speculation.

Did you know that the late Doctor Lorna Wing had a daughter with Autism called Susie who lived from 1956 till 2005 so she died about aged forty-nine.  That made Lorna Wing interested in Autism who was a Psychiatrist.  Just think if Susie Wing had been at Hans Asperger's clinic he might have referred her to be murdered.    I am sure that when Hans Asperger met Lorna Wing he would have kept all that secret from her.   

It is hardly our choice what our medical notes say. what Cassandro said.

I agree with the above line so there for it is important to change the name of the Syndrome as some people might not want to be associated with Asperger.  We did not know the full facts until recently.

We cannot choose how we are diagnosed and it is not practical to give Jewish people a different diagnoses.  It is not really a Jewish issue and if it was changed to Wing Syndrome Asperger would not be edited from history.  I am not sure if Hans Asperger was alive today whether he would have prosecuted and if he was whether he would have been found guilty.  Israel would not have been interested in Hans Asperger as he was not accused of killing Jews.  His defence would have been that he did not himself kill anyone himself.  I did read somewhere that Germans who killed disabled people were not dealt with as strictly as those accused of killing Jews. Again what I think does not make any difference to the issue whether Hans Asperger would have been sent to prison.  The point is as Hans Asperger might have co-operated with murdering disabled children he should not be honoured.

We can be sure that Lorna Wing was not involved in Eugenics so we can give the honour to her.

I mentioned Oskar Schindler as he saved Jews by giving Jews jobs and Deep thought said that Hans Asperger saved the lives of high functioning Autistic people by saying they could be  useful to the third Reich.  If that is the case then there is some similarity to Oskar Schindler as Oskar Schindler saved Jews by giving them jobs.

Two things that I deplore are:

1. Knee-jerk reactionary responses to things.

2. Letting emotion and empathy override intuition.

To cite an example, immediately after the tragic death of Princess Diana there were lots of people saying that we have to keep the Monarchy as a result. There were also people critical of or opposed to the continuation of the Monarchy who suddenly U-turned on their beliefs. It was all high on emotion and empathy and low on serious in-depth facts.

Just like with the death of Princess Diana, we have to let the dust settle and the media move onto other issues before making any serious decisions for the longer term. 

Deepthought said:

I did though smile some with the suggestion of 'Frankly' Syndrome, which in functional terms is quite befitting I thought :-)

Glad it made you smile - it was a deliberate reference both to Georg and Anni Frankl (who fled Germany before the war), and to our reputation for blunt honesty. Here's part of what Neurotribes says:

Like Anni's portrait of Gottfried, Frankl's paper - which has also been overlooked for decades - opens a rare window on the expansive Viennese view of autism that ended up being overshadowed by Kanner's more constricted model.

Deepthought said:

Editing people from the history books is though the mental equivalent of physically editing people from society ~ which may sound in some way familiar perhaps?

Dropping the name 'Asperger' would be nowhere near as severe as editing people from history. Harvey Weinstein is not going to be edited from the history of cinema, but it's just that we're unlikely to name an award after him now, unless it's ironic and for something nefarious.

Deepthought said:

I am rather pedantic about words and names fitting with the objects of their description

Me too. By the way, both, it's Oskar Schindler. Otto Schindler was a rower, according to the unreliable Wikipedia.

Arran said:

My local AS group has been contacted by outsiders who are Jewish / purporting to be Jewish / both accusing Hans Asperger as being a Nazi (some have made references to the Wikipedia article) insisting that we stop using his name.

Interesting. Given that we already knew who Asperger was, I think the policy of not overreacting is good. If you really think a response is needed stating that's your policy, looking for reliable sources, such as some of the newspaper articles linked here, pointing out it's hardly our choice what our medical notes say, and attempting a civil and honest dialogue might help.

David said:

You seem to suggest that Hans Asperger was another Otto Schindler by saving higher functioning Autistic people.

No I was not suggesting that, but being that you have: 

Dr Asperger was not a fully paid up member of the Nazi party, nor was he a manufacturer of tank shells for supporting the German war effort, nor as such the whole spectrum of Nazi enforced malevolence.

By stating this nonsense I am merely showing you how your argument does not stand up to reason regarding the 'crime' of 'collaboration', for in order to do something about problems in societal mechanics ~ getting involved with them and the hands dirty is necessary for some.

Both Asperger and Schindler have had incredible effect on helping people to feel supported and recognised as individuals, and this has been so less during and by far more since their direct and indirect involvements in and with the Nazi DICTATORSHIP of Adolf Hitler.

David said:

There were five million other victims of the Holocaust   who were not Jewish.

The problem is that people are still imagining the wrong doings of others from past times in foreign situations ~ whilst those exact same problems are developing yet further more in the present time and place, more and more as such unnoticed.

David said:

I do not know if Hans Asperger would have been prosecuted  after the war if the evidence had been there in his life time.

Obviously you do as the historical evidence only came to light in April 2018, so Dr Asperger getting prosecuted could not and did not happen, as he died in October 1980.

David said:

I know Otto Schindler saved Jews by being part of the system and employing them.  You seem to suggest that Hans Asperger was another Otto Schindler by saving higher functioning Autistic people.  By accepting his Asperger Syndrome we are implying that it is right to kill people at the lower end of the Spectrum

Not quite, by accepting that Oscar and Hans both signed papers with death being the result in military and psychiatric environments respectively ~ I am stating as I have been all along that the holocaust of blaming and shaming others is still for many carrying on unchecked. The socio-ill-logical mechanics of society as a being an unforgiving elitist dictatorship at large needs to be addressed, and more healthy pro-social behaviour exemplified for everyone regardless of culture, appearance or circumstance.

Obviously your assertion that I am suggesting it is right to kill people ~ is why I keep suggesting that you learn instead to be compassionate with yourself, and as such show respect for others. In this way respect for the dead is shown without further insult or ado for the living. Yes?

David said:

I belonged to the London Autism Rights Movement years ago and the founder said that Autistic people in homes are our brothers and sisters according to that logic Hans Asperger saved us but sent our brothers and sisters to their deaths.  We have to wait and see what they decide to do.

The first problem here is your assumption that sending people to their deaths is accordant to my logic, which is complete and utter nonsense ~ as it plainly contradicts my repeated suggestions that you show more compassion with yourself, and as such show respect for others. Yes?

The second problem, is that Asperger's Syndrome as Uta Frith stated is not an issue as far as scientific nomenclature goes, so it is a matter for the Autistic community to decide regarding themselves as individuals. This is so on the basis that once you have met one person with Autism; you have met one person with Autism ~ rather than some higher authority or moral and ethical cause that all must follow, support or lead ~ but one of personal choice. Yes? 

David said:

I suggested renaming it to Wing Syndrome after the late Lorna Wing.

Editing people from the history books is though the mental equivalent of physically editing people from society ~ which may sound in some way familiar perhaps?

For me personally, I am very much into keeping Lorna Wing's work attributed to her, and other medical and scientific experts work attributed to them ~ otherwise it gets even more Orwellian 1984 "Newspeak" ~ i.e. ambiguous euphemistic language used chiefly in political propaganda.

Anyway, my behavioural traits fitted the diagnostic criteria of Asperger's Syndrome hook, line and sinker, and I am rather pedantic about words and names fitting with the objects of their description. For me then each word and name fits into my linguistic map like a cross-word puzzle, and attempting to fit anything that does not fit ~ does not and cannot work for me.

I utterly respect though that AS does not work as a nomenclature for you, on account of your cultural heritage and personal experiences, just as I utterly respect anybody else who's sensibilities are likewise or otherwise inclined ~ for people's cultural heritages and personal experiences are all sacred to me. And no matter how much I like or dislike what people do, I love everybody and everything as brothers and sisters from other mothers anyway.

P.S. I did though smile some with the suggestion of 'Frankly' Syndrome, which in functional terms is quite befitting I thought :-)

If I was not Jewish I would know we should not honour a man who helped select Autistic people to be killed.   Every County in the world abuses Psychiatry by giving Tranquilisers to patients to keep them quiet but some are worse than others.

Russia is another country which abused Psychiatry and Stalin killed lots of people.  Yes the *** or Hitler's Hench men will argue that they are not the only people who killed innocent people.  A Judge would not be impressed with the defence that I am not the only person to break the law eg speed or drive drunk you still get punished.

It is not important what I think we have to wait and see what they decide to do.

I am sure that Doctor Lorna Wing was not involved with Eugenics so that is another advantage of calling it Wing Syndrome.  She brought the syndrome over from Austria to England.

We cannot tell the Judge I am not the only person who breaks the law.

Is your insistence that Asperger Syndrome is replaced with Wing Syndrome got anything to do with you being Jewish?

My local AS group has been contacted by outsiders who are Jewish / purporting to be Jewish / both accusing Hans Asperger as being a Nazi (some have made references to the Wikipedia article) insisting that we stop using his name.

The group's policy has been to ignore such criticism and just sit back and wait to see what the outcome is. We also know that it's not possible to write about the history of AS without reference to Hans Asperger and his paper so he can't exactly be obliterated.