How to handle 14yr old daughter's school refusal and very low mood

Hi Karen61

With my daughter pre-puberty was definitely the first time I suspected something -age 11-12 but...... looking back she had always had the meltdowns the dislike of certain changes, didn't like foods touching on a plate liking to drink though straws liking things like cleaning devices or baking stuff for birthdays i just thought she was eccentric!.The School Refusal was in Reception and year 6 -we got over it in Reception and  in yr 6 it started after SATS so didn't seem to matter between May and September - she was looking forward to going to High school but from the first day of year 7 she never managed a whole week -2 hospital admissions in year 7 with asthma  made the school refusal worse, she always felt ill in the morning, there were battles, threats, tears and meltdowns -i won't go on -we got her Diagnosis (Aspergers Syndrome/HFA) after going through CAMHS twice and after the diagnosis were told school were taking us to court -I offered her home schooling but she said she didn't want it!!

When they said they would prosecute us I just told her it was out of my hands -she worked with the guide books on her own for English Maths and Science she was Home Edded or rather edded herself for 3 whole yerars (7,8 and 9)

During that time she de-schooled and made up her mind to go to College where she did BTEC L2 Science, GCSE in Maths and English then went to do a 2 year BTEc Level 3 science.

There was a time i thought she would never learn anything ever again but she's at University now she does have a Mentor and a study skills supporter but has managed to complete first year and is now in second year. i still worry about her though!!!

My advice would be not to force a child if they cant attend, praise when they can and not to take stuff off them and let them enjoy doing something -anything they enjoy : )

Best wishes

Mandy

Thankyou for sharing such a positive story, Mandy, it's great that your daughter has found ways to learn which have enabled her to achieve so much more than you once feared.

I think that autistic people's education can thrive once they find the right environment, and the right style of teaching/learning which suits them. Although my school attendance was good (no such thing as Asperger's in my day, so I had little choice), the subjects that I did well at were always the ones that I had my own motivation for learning. I learn very well from books and on-line research, done at my own pace and in the order that makes sense to me, but poorly from dogmatic lecturing that just tries to cram my head with facts that I don't see the connection between. The subjects that I did well at were the ones where I was curious enough to learn a lot under my own steam by burying my head in books and TV documentaries. I got on well with a few teachers who encouraged my curiosity, but usually daydreamed and zoned out to keep the school environment at arm's length in lessons where the teacher tried to cram facts into my head just because the curriculum demanded that I know them. That kind of learning just doesn't "stick" for me.

For education and learning support to work well, there needs to be more recognition of this; that some kids learn best from lectures, others from books, others from images and videos, others from hands-on demonstrations and games, some in groups, some alone, and so on. Trying to force everyone to learn from the same style of teaching will always leave people behind who may have a talent for the subject, but different ways of organising what they learn inside their heads.

Hi everyone,

l've  had so much help from Trogluddite and Emma and everyone else on this thread that I feel cheeky asking for more but we feel we're at a slightly different place due to all your advice and shared experiences. It's a place we haven't ever been before and I'd really appreciate any thoughts on what to do next!

We've read a lot about "defence mode" and "shut down" and feel that this is exactly what has happened to A. We've learned through these pages and from bitter experiences that traditional discipline, expectations and consequences don't work at all. We have backed ourselves into corners we didn't want to be in and if anything made the situation worse at times. Yes... just human parents doing what they thought was best and failing!

So where are we now? We have taken all pressure off trying to go to school or to do school  work at home. We add in a bit of education if we can when chatting or watching tv etc. A has inverted night and day as she says she hates the general house noises in the day which she can't control.. where are we? What are we doing? Will we arrive at her bedroom door to ask something any moment now? So sleeping in the day is better.... a tendency to go to bed at four to five am then sleep until mid to late afternoon. She can't see a reason not to do this as she finds the world just too stressful to be in most of the time.

She says she is genuinely relieved if she doesn't have to go out although she still tries to get to drama and guitar .... she hasn't managed either this week. Her self care isn't poor.. she told me today she hasn't brushed her teeth for days. She wants to keep in touch with friends but feels too stressed to do so and was crying today as she says there is so much she has to fix .. her words. 

We have decided to just love her, with no demands for a while. To encourage her in those things she wants to do. She asked today for help with getting back to healthy eating so I've made a menu for the week and we will prepare all her meals to begin with. I've also done a routine chart with just a few things on it eg try to wake by two pm, try to be in bed by four am, brush teeth each day.

There is a referral into CAMHS but no news of an appointment yet. The GP has put her on the pill as pms and hormones are also part of her picture. No medication for anxiety or depression as only CAMHS do that in our area. ASD assessment on hold.

and so, at last, to the question. HOW do we help our lovely, beautiful, intelligent girl to move out of the shut down, defence mode and back into a world she sees little point in? We are learners and we really need help on what steps to take, how to successfully encourage her to regain confidence as she feels she has lost her sbilities even tho we tell her it's just that she can't access them at the moment. 

We have house rule that Internet off between eleven thirty and seven am and phones out of bedrooms at same time so she doesn't disturb friends who are still getting up for school or be accessing internet sites all night. She has her iPad with music and downloads on it so she isn't bereft in the small hours. We have to go to bed of course to keep up with our commitments although if there is the opportunity to chat with her in the night we sometimes do a she we miss her a lot and there aren't that many opportunities for communication. Any choices or decisions are very very hard for her just now and socialising tires her so much. Her Nan was round for three hours and A made the effort to be with us but was really uptight afterwards and had a mini meltdown lasting an hour. 

Please help with personal experiences of what helped you come back from the dark place of shut down.

we so want to help... its very hard and it's sad too,

Thanks... this forum means a lot to us,

Karen 

Hi everyone,

l've  had so much help from Trogluddite and Emma and everyone else on this thread that I feel cheeky asking for more but we feel we're at a slightly different place due to all your advice and shared experiences. It's a place we haven't ever been before and I'd really appreciate any thoughts on what to do next!

We've read a lot about "defence mode" and "shut down" and feel that this is exactly what has happened to A. We've learned through these pages and from bitter experiences that traditional discipline, expectations and consequences don't work at all. We have backed ourselves into corners we didn't want to be in and if anything made the situation worse at times. Yes... just human parents doing what they thought was best and failing!

So where are we now? We have taken all pressure off trying to go to school or to do school  work at home. We add in a bit of education if we can when chatting or watching tv etc. A has inverted night and day as she says she hates the general house noises in the day which she can't control.. where are we? What are we doing? Will we arrive at her bedroom door to ask something any moment now? So sleeping in the day is better.... a tendency to go to bed at four to five am then sleep until mid to late afternoon. She can't see a reason not to do this as she finds the world just too stressful to be in most of the time.

She says she is genuinely relieved if she doesn't have to go out although she still tries to get to drama and guitar .... she hasn't managed either this week. Her self care isn't poor.. she told me today she hasn't brushed her teeth for days. She wants to keep in touch with friends but feels too stressed to do so and was crying today as she says there is so much she has to fix .. her words. 

We have decided to just love her, with no demands for a while. To encourage her in those things she wants to do. She asked today for help with getting back to healthy eating so I've made a menu for the week and we will prepare all her meals to begin with. I've also done a routine chart with just a few things on it eg try to wake by two pm, try to be in bed by four am, brush teeth each day.

There is a referral into CAMHS but no news of an appointment yet. The GP has put her on the pill as pms and hormones are also part of her picture. No medication for anxiety or depression as only CAMHS do that in our area. ASD assessment on hold.

and so, at last, to the question. HOW do we help our lovely, beautiful, intelligent girl to move out of the shut down, defence mode and back into a world she sees little point in? We are learners and we really need help on what steps to take, how to successfully encourage her to regain confidence as she feels she has lost her sbilities even tho we tell her it's just that she can't access them at the moment. 

We have house rule that Internet off between eleven thirty and seven am and phones out of bedrooms at same time so she doesn't disturb friends who are still getting up for school or be accessing internet sites all night. She has her iPad with music and downloads on it so she isn't bereft in the small hours. We have to go to bed of course to keep up with our commitments although if there is the opportunity to chat with her in the night we sometimes do a she we miss her a lot and there aren't that many opportunities for communication. Any choices or decisions are very very hard for her just now and socialising tires her so much. Her Nan was round for three hours and A made the effort to be with us but was really uptight afterwards and had a mini meltdown lasting an hour. 

Please help with personal experiences of what helped you come back from the dark place of shut down.

we so want to help... its very hard and it's sad too,

Thanks... this forum means a lot to us,

Karen 

Hello all, I came across this thread after googling for advice re my 14 yr old Daughter (A). It was almost a relief to find that what’s happening with her is not unusual for a teen girl with ASD. She was diagnosed just before the start of Covid and end of primary school. She steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the diagnosis (I had to promise not to tell her family/friends though she knows school and Drs know). This makes it hard as I can’t talk openly with friends or access much support.

I realise none of you will probably see this but I’ve found it very useful to read the posts and replies. Karen61 I am going through very similar except A is mainly still going to school (a big positive). I find it hard to accept the lengthy shutdowns, defiant behaviour and self sabotage and have been at the end of my tether sometimes. Reading this thread has helped a lot, just knowing others go through the same.

I am counting the positives - she leaves her phone downstairs at night (though often sneaks in another device) and is still going to school although refuses to do any work at home. She is high functioning and bright so managed ok through to yr 8. Towards the end of yr 9 she got a lot more negative comments re missing homework, disruption or non engagement in class. Her anxiety and exhaustion have increased a lot this year,  I think masking is taking more and more out of her on top of all the other teen angst. It’s hard to strike a balance between backing off and keeping her healthy. She refuses to eat sometimes and I’m aware of how delicate the balance is to a avoid an issue with food/eating. I won’t ramble but will read some more up to date threads now I’ve found this community.

Karen61, if you read this, I hope all is well with you and your daughter. 

Yes have a lovely time Suzanne! 

Wow, that's early! Hopefully you won't hit much traffic at that hour

Have a good holiday! x

Thank you @trogluddite and Emma - again really helpful and insightful replies.

We're off on holiday tomorrow in the very early hours - we have to leave at 3.30am. I know who will be the only one of us properly awake at that time! I just wanted to say thank you before leaving. And wish you all a lovely week. 

Karen61 said:

Thank you so much Trogluddite

You're very welcome.

I'm of a generation who never had the chance to be diagnosed as children unless we had severe learning disabilities, and neither I nor my parents had any help to deal with the problems stemming from my autism other than each other. Unless by some lucky stroke of fate, each autistic person, each family, struggled in isolation, not even knowing that there were others just like them, because we had no way to find each other or even know that we were alike. Communities like this one are an incredible thing to have, and can make such a positive difference. They certainly have for me since my diagnosis a few years ago, and I don't begrudge for one moment giving something back.

I'm very unlikely to ever be a parent, and in all honesty, my autistic traits almost certainly mean that I wouldn't be cut out for it. I quite enjoy being a crazy uncle, though! To hear of other people's autistic children not having to work everything out the hard way, like my generation did, brings me a little consolation for not being able to turn the clock back on my own life.

Compared to the hardships and hard work that you are all putting into raising your children and getting the very best support for them, me typing a few words of encouragement and recounting my experiences does not seem an arduous task.To take us full circle back to my previous post; belonging to a bunch of people who come together to make the world a better place for each other, and for the people we care about, helps to keep my own apathy and nihilism at bay.

Best wishes.

Glad she made it to Nan's! :) She's obviously trying hard. Fingers crossed she keeps doing so; small victories are things to celebrate!

I don't think I can add too much to Trogluddite's post, it's all completely sound.
Your husband is right about taking it steady, too. (I laughed at the pair of them secretly eyeing up snakes, Karen! And in response to your question the other half and I generally overlap in the evening, occasionally in the AM if I get up early too.)

14-16 is indeed an extremely tricky time for most of us, the combination of "puberty", "first lot of genuinely hard academics" and "incredibly difficult and constantly-changing social landscape". There's nothing like it. I do think she will come around but it will almost certainly take time. I was very similar (the "I didn't ask to be born..." is 14 year old me, verbatim), 17 is actually when I started coming out the other side of it. That teacher definitely has a point.

Wishing you all good things and many more small victories. x

Thank you so much Trogluddite... especially your good advice about listening and letting the conversations happen. I think I thought to shut it down as we couldn't help her find a way through her very real philosophical beliefs that life is ultimately meaningless and that our inability to see it from her point of view just frustrated her too much. But I agree... she has always always been a thinker and a philosopher and that will stand her in good stead in lots of ways, tho the overthinking is making life so tricky right now for her and for us.

We are trying hard to throw out old parenting ways out of the window, tear up the rule book etc as suggested here, and we are doing pretty well. Maybe next we need to throw out the idea that it is unhealthy or wrong or whatever to spend a period of time sleeping in the day and being up at night.... until things get a bit straighter in her mind.

A teacher in a specialist school for girls on the spectrum has said that this is very very common .... for fourteen to sixteen year olds to have a really extra tricky time. Can we manage another year?! Time to sit back and try to relax maybe,

thank you. You always take such time to give helpful responses to all of us struggling with knowing how to help our much loved children. 

I was wrong! She got herself together and went... well done A!

Hi everyone, I hope you are all well.

Regarding the sleep patterns. I have always been exactly the same, as my Mum before me; my body clock seems to think that I live somewhere in the USA Mid-West! No amount of prior sleep-deprivation seems to make much of a difference, and nor has any of the usual advice or medication. Forcing myself to go through the day at school or at work when I'm shattered is just something I've always accepted that I have to do, and I just grit my teeth and get through it. I can't really tell you how, because I've never known any different, and I used to think that many of my autistic traits were just the result of chronic sleep-deprivation.

Whether it is due to liking the less stimulating and more predictable hours of the night-time, or an innate sleep disorder, is something that I've asked myself a lot. I have never reached a definite answer, but I suspect it's probably a little bit of both. I took part in some research into sleep and autism a little while ago; the full results aren't out yet, but the preliminary findings suggest that up to 60% of autistic people have a sleep disorder of some kind, with late-onset insomnia being the most common. Other, similar research suggests much the same.

There is some evidence that for some of us there is organic cause due to a problem with the way our brains produce or process melatonin; a brain signalling chemical which resets our body clock each day to keep it sychronised. Appropriate light levels at certain times of day are an essential part of this system, so therapy with a light-box may help, as can outdoor exercise, and computer apps which subtly adjust the colour of the screen to match the sky at different times of day (I have found the free app f.lux effective and simple to use, which you can download here; there are versions for Windows, Mac, and most mobile devices.) Some children have been effectively treated with melatonin supplements, though NICE does not recommend it for this purpose because there haven't been big clinical trials yet; so you would need a sympathetic GP, and of course, should be as watchful for side-effects etc. as with any medication.

Regarding nihilistic and apathetic feelings, I sympathise very much. In part, I think this is because autistic people often compensate for lacking social intuition by analysing everything all the time, and it can turn us into amateur philosophers; constantly questioning the meaning of life. But ultimately, constant thinking about these things intellectually will never give us the answers we need; otherwise philosophers would have stopped arguing about them centuries ago! This ambiguity is often very uncomfortable to an autistic person, as ultimately, formal logic can only tell us that there's no way to prove that life ultimately has a purpose (it can't prove that there isn't one, either, of course!)

The only answer is to do more and think less, so having creative hobbies and people there to share things with are very important; these things can become the purpose that we're seeking, even if only temporarily. I would definitely discourage you from shutting down such conversations if at all possible, as this might just lead to worse feelings of isolation; the typical teenage feeling of "no-one understands me" is magnified enormously by being autistic. Just to be listened to and not dismissed as being silly or irrational is a huge help, even if you have nothing to say to counter the negative points of view themselves. Keep the communication channels open at all costs, even if what you are hearing makes you uncomfortable.

Best wishes.

Oh yes Suzanne.. this is definitely a support group! Think I was just getting a bit guilty about saying much the same again and also though it would be good to get together for joint ranting/despairing/hoping/ problem solving! I live in the south too. I'll try and work out the pm bit. Can't stop for long now but much as I don't want anyone anywhere to have to be facing what we're facing it's also somehow reassuring that we're not alone. 

Have to go out to choir now... sing my heart out before coming back to face it again. Today she's not up yet and is supposed to Be trying to go to my mum's for tea... she loves her Nan but I don't think she's going to make it. I may be wrong. 

I've never sworn as much internally as I have lately!! 

Im meeting up with someone on Monday who is mum to one of A's friends to talk about home schooling... tho as Amy can't face anything like work or a demand at the moment I can't imagine we'll b hurrying down that route any time soon. 

Take care and thanks for listening earlier

Hi Karen61 - I don't know what to say but I wanted to let you know that someone 'out there' did hear you.

I honestly don't know what can be doneabout the inverted day thing, the school thing, the 'so bored, what's it all about' thing - all of which L is going through too -- though he's only at the beginning of school refusal (I fully expect it to get worse ... though maybe I should be a bit more positive). And actually I'm not convinced it's school refusal with L. He actually likes school because he sees his friends. He has a group of like-minded boys he gets on well with, largely thanks to a common interest (obsession?) with (expletive deleted) gaming/YouTube/other net-based stuff. We don't turn off the wi-fi in the house - partly because both myself and my partner need it (and he works late) but also because it's so difficult to constantly find hiding places for the router/devices and also L has been threatening in the past and although it's been very sham-style posturing before when he's threatened, I don't want to test him, especially with my other child around.

Anyway (lost my thread... )I think L doesn't make school because he's just so tired he can't get in. He always goes to bed in the early hours (1-3am) - and the other day it was 6.30am apparently. That was a day he went into school on - he must have been shattered! Interestingly, I said I thought we ought to go to the doctor's about the sleep thing but that I couldn't make an appointment if he wasn't willing to see her too and he said he was. I made the appointment today and told him and he seemed pleased, which I took as really positive. The doc will only give the same advice I give (Dr and I talked about this today!) but it might be better coming from her?

So why do people with ASD have sleep issues, or prefer to be nocturnal? Is it for the quiet? I think @Emma mentioned her partner preferring the quiet of the house at night. Most of the noise in our house seems to come from the (expletive deleted again!) screen from L himself!! L has actually never moaned about the noise in the house - only his brother's drumming but that's understandable! Is there anything I can read shedding light on this? Are there any useful suggestions for getting over it other than the getting exercise, experiencing daylight, not being on screen late at night - none of which L will listen to (from me... let's hope doc's words work).

I think it's lovely the pleasure your daughter gets from her guitar and drama. (In that, she is again like L ... I LOVE watching him tinkering on the piano (lessons long given up because he said he knew how to play -- haha!! so arrogant. He really does not know how to play but he knows where the notes are and is pretty good at musical theory) but L won't actually do ANY practising on the instrument he's now taken up and says he enjoys. So I'm currently threatening to stop lessons -- which of course I don't want to do but it's crazy paying for lessons when there's no practising going on ... and anyway  then he'll get out his sax and play (with his dad like your daughter!!) and it is really nice and I think of course I can't stop the lessons. It all drives me bonkers (and probably L with all those mixed messages I'm giving ... but in fairness I feel I'm only just learning how to 'parent' a child with autism - as in, being very clear in my language and words being taken at face value etc (this actually pains me... thinking of all the confusion and difficulty I've probably caused L in the past).

Now it's my turn to admit to rambling. Support group?I think this is a support group, of a kind, no? I certainly have found it supportive in the week or so since I've found it. I don't know how you direct message but feel free to direct message me if you think a meet up is possible/desirable. I live in the south of england and don't really, for obvious reasons, want to say any more than that in a public forum.

Keep on counting the positives .

This may save any of you needing to reply. My husband is more measured than me.. not as emotional. He said this morning that it seemed over the past few days that there has been some progress with A communicating with us a bit more. He says I'm always looking for a quick fix (I'd like to think he's wrong but maybe not) and that he thinks we should just keep going with our plan of staying calm and patient and showing love and care regardless. Encouraging if we get the chance.... I wonder if we should shut down all possibly tricky conversations the moment they begin, even if A begins them..... or whether its better to explore for a little while with her but be really alert to it becoming unhelpful for any of us..??

And so I'll have a quiet cry and carry on loving and hoping she comes through. Think she'd love to live alone but not possible at 14!! Tho she might find she does need to operate in the day at times - like your fiancé Emma! When do you get time together?! Maybe I even have to think that having an inverted day is OK too.... I find this really hard and worry about it. Guess she'd make a good night worker tho!! 

ive also re-read the whole thread (that took a while) and have been reminded of how many other people are facing similar situations. Support group anyone?! Would be good to chat face to face over coffee but realise that's a very long shot! 

I am going to begin a "positives" log so that I can look back and see tiny steps of progress and focus on what is going a bit right rather than despairing about what is going wrong. I re read something by Penny61 I think it was about throwing usual parenting expectations and style out of the window. This is harder to do than I expected, but I will go on trying! 

Wish we could have gone for assessment as planned. A says she could have managed for the day probably but clinicians advised against it until seen by CAMHS.... still waiting to hear back from them...... 

bye for now.. hope you all have reasonably positive days. 

Yes to pets Emma. We have two cats, one of which A has had since a kitten. You're right , she's not feeding her at the moment but we are. I mentioned a snake last night (we won't be getting one) but was really surprised to learn that my husband and A had each secretly wanted a snake!! The things you learn... also my mum is hoping to get a dog soon - she lives in the same village - and is hoping to include Amy in it all. 

We came home last night from a rehearsal to find A singing and playing guitar and her dad joined in. It was lovely. Then she wanted a fire lit so we did that and she and her dad watched some tv whilst I was in same room reading... also lovely. Then we got into a conversation unexpectedly about the internet going off and she, being very articulate and bright, tried hard to prove that we have our thinking back to front .... then the conversation moved on to her not wanting to get better, wishing she didn't have to live with us, not wanting to live as life is pointless etc. It became quite upsetting ( but we stayed calm and with her)  and, to be honest, she was calculating and seemed to change persona (if that's makes any sense) to someone who wanted to give the impression she doesn't give a **** about any of our attempts to help, about joining in the world at all etc. She was doing everything she could to push us as far away as possible. I think I get it but it's very very hard to cope with and this morning I'm just in pieces wondering what to do for the best. 

She knows about what could help her to get better (diet, exercise, some outside activity etc) but says she doesn't want to get better. She says she knows our lack of pressure about education is "fake" (it isn't actually - she has time later in life). I was pleased she had eaten what I'd prepared and said so "why wouldn't I if you're going to get it all for me" ?

positive from yesterday include eating with us in the evening again, playing and singing on her own and then with her dad, watching to and toasting marshmallows on the fire, brushing teeth at some point, managing a conversation with both of us in the room. She didn't wash or get dressed tho at some point in the night/arly morning she has been out for a walk so I guess she got dressed then! Been awake all night and pretended she was asleep at 8am until I picked up one thing from the floor as her room is now unhealthily untidy - fruit flies, a bit smelly etc. Told me to get out as she had only just fallen asleep (she'd been talking to someone - probably her boyfriend- just 10 mins before that). 

Gosh - I see that I'm just venting really.... but I'm going to let it stand as we just don't know what to do. We think we understand and then she is so mean and unkind to us.... is it because she let us get too close for an hour or two? 

I'm going to be talking with a friend's mum whom A asked to get in touch with me about home schooling - she doesn't seem interested at all but she did this for me so perhaps she is. Some relatives have the opinion we should just take her out of school - just do it - but A isn't entirely convinced and it's a big decision. And also she says all the time that it isn't just about school..... and her actions would suggest this too. 

We are so stuck. We love her so much. We have no idea how to help her to want to be a bit better. She is staying with her sister next week who she feels safe with and who is planning some lovely evening things..... maybe that will jog a thought about wanting to take part in life again. She is so articulate that she can argue all our arguments (e.g. "You say you're fine but although it is usual to have a messy room it's not usual not to wash or brush your teeth" etc... she retorts that why does it matter if she doesn't even care about living. Or "it's usual to not like your parents and not want to be with them when you're a teenager but it's not usual to invert night and day to avoid them" she will say that why does it matter, of course she knows that life happens in the daytime mostly but she doesn't want any part of life.... her dad said that as we live in the same house some compromise from each person is needed... that didn't impress her. "I didn't ask to be born or to have to live with you...."

We are living right on the edge. We don't want to fall.  

Is there anything else we should try or is it just a long waiting game? I'm going to read all of these replies and ideas again later today. Even if you're all a bit fed up with my writings thank you.... it doesn't even matter if no one replies today... it's really helpful to know someone listens!  But I'll try to stop posting as much - give you all a break!! 

Royal pythons are great aspie pets, they're relaxing, hypoallergenic, silent, eat very cheap food once a week and defecate a couple of times a month at most.
They're slow moving and good to handle if you are worried about keeping hold of something wrigglier; the lap pets of the reptile world.
They don't care how much human attention they get beyond keeping them fed and watered; if you're particularly busy one week and don't get them out, they aren't bothered.
They're heavy enough to provide deep pressure (which many autistic people find incredibly calming) by simply sitting across your shoulders (mine will happily do this for hours, he has fallen asleep around my neck before) and have a really nice texture. 

The downsides are that you have to be able to handle dead rats, the setup can be expensive, you can't handle the snake when they have just eaten or are about to shed their skin, and they can be finicky with food and make you worry about them.
Also when they do need to see a vet (very occasionally if your care is spot on, but these things can happen to anyone) it's more expensive than a regular vet and you need to have a specialist.

Had never thought about snakes before - M enjoyed handling them at the farm park. She's been asking for a horse lately - but I suspect a snake would be easier and less expensive

Yes, definitely would prefer to have pets and lose them than not at all. I didn't have a pet growing up and would have loved one dearly - so have always had animals since owning my own home. 

True, it is always very hard when a pet dies because that bond can be so strong. The cats my parents had before I was born were like siblings to me. Those deaths hit very hard.
That said, I wouldn't have preferred not to have them in the first place. As for your family, benefits > disadvantages.

This is another advantage of the snakes; my python has a captive lifespan of 30-45 years. Accidents in a vivarium are unlikely. We're growing old together.

Animals, yes! We have three cats and a dog, and sometimes M will just sit and cuddle one. It calms her right down. She really loves animals and seems to have a 'way' with them. In the summer she had to do 2 weeks work experience, we arranged it with the local farm park but didn't think she would be able to go. In fact she managed an hour a day and loved doing the small animal handling with the little kids - she was able to engage with others by talking about the rabbits and guinea pigs. She now wants to volunteer at the farm park at weekends - a major breakthrough for us!

One problem with animals is that they can pass away. M had her own cat and it was killed by a car last year (just after she had her crash and stopped going to school, the most appalling timing). She had a really special bond with that cat, and still gets upset thinking about it. We went and got two more kittens a few weeks afterwards. Overall we feel the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, but we do have a constant worry that something will happen to one of our animals - M is hit hard by the grief. Just something to bear in mind!

Hi again Karen,
Never feel cheeky asking! It's what we're here for.

My partner is on the same sleep schedule, it's not at all uncommon in autism for precisely the reasons your daughter has given.
He does need to break out of it sometimes though if he has somewhere to be at a certain time (he does occasional voluntary work that requires travel) and will usually do so by staying up an extra couple of hours at a time over the course of a week and setting his alarm the appropriate amount of time earlier as he goes to "fix" it before the event.

I would recommend her getting back onto daytime-ish by that method if she can, even lunchtime wake-up if that would work for her, just because sunlight deprivation can have a negative effect on mental health (always does me if I let my schedule slip too much over school holidays). 
It will also make it easier for her to attend activities on the days she does feel able to.

Now that's not going to be possible unless you deal with the root causes of the sleep pattern she's chosen, namely the noise of the house and her anxiety.



Re. sound sensitivity;
I am quite similar to A with the noises of a busy household and completely understand where she is coming from. I loathe the everyday bustle of a full house. 
The thing that really helps me is the habitual use of earplugs or headphones (playing music that encourages a relaxed or slightly-hyper mood depending on what I need to get done; my state of mind is very easily affected by music so I have several "mood-altering playlists" set up for the purpose). 
Depending on what is comfortable for A, she could try ear defenders (Pros; nothing inside the ear, Cons; bulky and a bit heavy) or foam earplugs (the opposite; very light and unobtrusive but you may need to look around to find some that feel comfy as they go inside the ear). I favour the latter, boots do some very comfortable green ones that I also use to keep water out of my ears when swimming/bathing.

Re. anxiety;
Keep the pressure off, she is obviously very worried about being asked to do things she can't cope with, which is understandable. When you can't physically cope with doing something you know you should do, having someone reminding you of it just makes the feeling worse.
She will need time to adapt to the idea that she isn't going to be suddenly asked to do things,
Framing unavoidable requests to give her an out (do you think you could X?) and not expecting her to do things at the moment of asking (giving her time to build up to it) should help too. 



The timetable idea is a very good one! To-do lists got me through university. I would advise you to continue with that, we like timetables as a general rule. :)



You're exactly right re. not being able to access her abilities as opposed to them being lost, keep re-iterating that. It's hard to see the possibility of recovery when you're depressed, I think that's the worst thing about it. It did get easier for me with age, as I recognised that I did always come out the other side. I still have phases of depression, but it tends to be a week or so rather than a year at a time now. Telling her that may help or it may not. I wonder if it would help her to read/hear about the experiences of others in similar situations. That's very dependent on her state of mind and personality, you'd have to ask her.
I expect you already are, but tell her she absolutely doesn't need to 'fix' ALL the things straight away. Baby steps are the way to go, try to help her not to expect too much from herself too soon. She'll be more stable for recovering at a steady pace.



A slightly unusual final idea based on my own experience, feel free to reject it if it doesn't work for you, but how does A react to animals?
When I feel I simply have no energy to do something vital (wash my clothes, cook my food, etc.) I'm often seen with one of my snakes on my shoulders. Having them there to focus on just gives me access to that extra little energy reserve.

I also always found animals much easier to interact with than people (they don't expect much from you re. social fluff), so having them around meant company and comfort I could cope with even in my lowest times. Mum got my brother and I a pair of kittens partly to help me through a very bad depression I went through just after I was first flagged up as autistic, having them helped improve my mood enormously. Being (partly) responsible for them made me feel more confident and capable, cat-cuddles made me happy. Win-win.

The third thing my animals do is ease me through social situations; when I walk into a room of strangers with a python, I know I'm about to have an icebreaker conversation that I've had a thousand times before (and could recite both sides of in advance) on a topic I know lots about. It takes so much pressure off!

Obviously this idea is a big extra commitment for the whole family and not something I suggest lightly. But, if you can meet the following conditions;

* She thinks it would benefit her and is reasonably enthusiastic about the idea.
* You are careful about finding the appropriate species (e.g. I favour the royal python for their lack of noise/allergens, slow movement and simple care requirements. My partner doesn't work and needs to be prompted to get up, so he likes the constant company and "wake up and feed me" attention of the cat -dogs are too full on for him. He's raised her from a kitten and they have an amazing bond; she follows him like a shadow to the extent that I have used 'where is the cat?' to cheat at hide and seek.) 
* You as parents can afford to and have time to look after an animal for its lifespan (and to take the initiative to do so if she can't cope, rather than asking her to do it as that is one of her big anxiety triggers).

it may help lift her up a bit to have a non-human companion. It has always helped me enormously.


Her name rather than initial slipped into that last paragraph, telling you in case that's still something you want to keep off-forum

Emma x