an NT asking autistics what THEY want from us.....

I won't believe integration is not possible. A world bereft of difference does not interest me. Understanding and awareness is frustratingly slow but not stagnant. We perhaps need to consider who adapts to whom.   A less "noisy" environment might well be desirable to many and better for all.  

If you're willing to look hard enough, autistics are easy to love. The bad days are heartbreaking not unlovable. 

I don't believe we have a model of education that works well for a lot of children.  Are huge secondary schools conduisive to learning for anyone? Does the autistic child simply recognise this more acutely?

Hope said:

I agree about the negative aspects of Capitalism. The biggest problem in life is a cold utilititarian logic that reduces everything to money and relative value.

exactly, thats the main problem, its not that people dont want to, or cant help, its that the gov. and authorites arent putting the money into the right areas TO help

Hope said:

As someone who was diagnosed very late, I have two feet in two different places, the non-autistic world and the autistic world. I

This has come at a price, namely knocks to my self-esteem, but I have regained my confidence and self-esteem since my diagnosis.

I am split in two!.

its funny you should say that, i as an nt feel kinda the same, i now am in both worlds as well

its good you regained your confidence probably through your own hard work, bu tnot so good the help hasnt been there for you

I agree about the negative aspects of Capitalism. The biggest problem in life is a cold utilititarian logic that reduces everything to money and relative value.

As someone who was diagnosed very late, I have two feet in two different places, the non-autistic world and the autistic world. I have never received special education, or even special treatment until I got diagnosed with AS. I have always experienced mainstream life and have learnt to adapt and fit in. This has come at a price, namely knocks to my self-esteem, but I have regained my confidence and self-esteem since my diagnosis. Knowing the reason why I have had certain difficulties with friendship, conversation, practical tasks, organization, anxieties etc, was the most fruitful aspect of my diagnosis. But I still have my foot firmly in the mainstream world and am happy in both worlds: the autistic and mainstream. I will never define myself by my label, but I like the reassurance that comes from being part of a community of autistic individuals. I come here for security. However, I also seek identity in the non-autistic world too - I am split in two!.

I think we need to be careful about typecasting, for people with aspergers are just as capable of being greedy and selfish as are so called 'neurotypicals'. Likewise, neurotypicals can be caring, sympathetic, generous and accepting. We are really all individuals, first and foremost, although  we share a label and by definition have a great deal in common. But we must not let our shared experiences and commonalities obscure our unique aspects. It is a glib statement, but it is true that no two people with AS are the same. Sometimes I might have more in common with a non-autistic person than I do with someone who has AS.

NAS10116 said:

It would be a start if it was well endorsed that the Neurotypical perspective was not introduced as the all seeing all being point of view and that the theory of mind is debunked as a best guess that is fraut with pifalls at the best of times,

  ...but this culture seems entrenched in it's own self possed uninformed concreted attitude that monotropic is an impairment, it is not,

I grant you it is well different and taking things litterally is not a recipe for a quick giggle but when you get the hang of it it is an avenue to greater generosity, understanding and appreciation of most things as a direct consequence of its presence.

..It lends itself to easy resolution and perpetuates a general persuit of greater values and investment in positivity. It also adresses the issues of bullying easily

..I am left head scratching with dismay and missery at the persistant poor attitude and dissenfranchising promotions that are a pervasive facet of Neurotypical investment in the notion of the ability to operate with the myth that is the theory of mind.

..Regardless of the degree of autism or associated conditions we experience I can see a thread of consistent shared factors and the term monotropic cosmology is a fine address as a frame work for a way of viewing the world, has the world bothered to pass beyond what quantifies professional name calling and actually learn our language and terminologies, No.

 a fantastic bunch of optomistic, steadfast, hard working and patient people we are,

...The assumption of a supremis attitude and right of authority is obtuse at best and often quantifies the level of indifference that it is easy to operate when faced with a whole world view of things. If you are a  world traveler and have a love of different culture then I think you may well be better equiped to begin the endevour of befriending an autistic than some people who have spent a deal of time in a class room with many a book on the subject.

WB

The datum by which the whole of our society is measured is what our health is asking to be moved and the health of the many will I believe be served by the needs and deserved plee of the few. But it is an antithasis to the corperate and consumtive directives of a society based on capitalism with money as the measure of quality or life itself.

 

and you even mention capitalism 

i agree with you completely, to me its capitalism, that really took out our human intelligence and replaced it with greed and selfishness and that comes along with this lack of ability to see anything other than our own views/needs

aside from that, i like the fact you bring up the positives about autism, its very rare, there are so many people trying to 'cure' it, and talk about 'changing/adapting the behaviours, making them 'fit in'  that we ignore the brilliant parts of it and jus thow  much autism and autistics have actually made our society

nts have learned to be quite selfish and small minded, its not all our 'fault' tho its the world we are in, but i think it is a problem that needs to be dealt with, and as i said, i think the government and autistic authorities are the people who 'should be doing that

Hope said:

When people say, 'you must be mild' or 'I never would have guessed you have Aspergers', I feel like saying to them, 'well, what behaviour do you expect to see, and what should someone with Aspergers look like'?.

if someone could really see the constant anxiety I face every day, the obsessions, uncertainties, organizational problems, difficulty securing employment and making friends, they would hardly call my condition 'mild'.

my partner has the same comments, all the time, it is a bit irritating to hear but its easily passed over because its lack of understanding of what autism is, and i cant complain as i had that ignorance myself before we learned he has it

its the government, and autistic authorites, place to educate society about these issues (as well as peoples OWN responsbility to do it themselves)

yes exactly, i know what my partner goes through, on the outside he 'looks fine' inside, its a different matter , and a lot of autistics dont or cant express how they feel the same way its 'expected' by society so its rarely noticible

pain is another one, a lot of autistics, and my partner included, have an ability to deal with pain and not say a word about it, you wouldnt know they had any problem, he broke his finger once and didnt know till he visited the doc months later, (this is just one example of many)

some one said:

[quote][/quote]

I've learned to deal with touchy feely people (I some times work with Drama lovies (I hate them)) by telling them there touching the wrong part of me. That makes them feel uncomfortable and then the touchy feely stuff goes.

The behind the back thing I still struggle with. Because I'm a grump I make it known to people that if my life is made difficult, I will make others lives difficult, however I have stronger willpower than most. As harsh as this is it avoids a lot of confrontation and I get on with people better for letting it known I won't tolerate. 

Emmotional/Irrational stuff is odd. I don't mind people crying or being upset. I think it's people telling me how I feel about stuff I don't like. For instance people saying "you said x and therefore you feel y", and Im more of a x means x and y means y. I'am not very romantic, but that's because I'm not romantic, It doesn't mean I don't love you etc. 

My mum does my head in with emotional stuff. She refuses to accept objectivity. She fat and cries if a doctor says she's obese. Where I see obese as a clinical definition of someone who is overweight by a certain proportion. 

When/if I get a diagnosis I might start being open with people which might help some of this stuff.

i have to say i did giggle at your comment about your mum,

i understand your reasons and you have a valid point, but i also understand hers,

being told you are fat (to a fat person, or to a woman) is like being told you are worthless and usless, because usually YOU made you fat and most people know that, but most also dont like being made to feel THEY could have done something about it

also, you might have noticed, most nts dont really like 'the truth', for different reasons

many people cant handle the truth and objectivity of autism, sometimes even the autistic persons family and ESPECIALLY when its about them

you can try talking to her about it, ask her 'mum what is it that upsets you about this? do you want to be healthy? i will help you do that but i dont understand why you get upset when we talk about what it is that you need help with', listen to what she says about it (even if it seems irrational or like it doesnt make sense )

try to make it less personal and less her fault,speak about it to her like 'its a problem and we can change that' 

we nts respond better to facts and truth IF they come along with support, help and some nice things like 'i love you mum, i want you to be healthy, happy' etc

hehehe "touching the wrong part of me" at least it works for you

it is harsh, but i understand it, being with an autistic partner for 12 years ive learned to see things that way too, i can totally understand why you think that and if it works then again thats the point

the 'it doesnt mean i dont love you' i know that one well, i will just end on, i know, and i think many other people with autistic family and partners will know too, you will find someone who accepts that part

TBH with mum I try not to offer an opinion unless pushed. Mum is very emotionally immature, she fixates on demonises people she doesnt like at that point in time for very petty reasons. I just talk about football over the top and that diverts. My mum is always right (if you know what I mean).

I kind of make up for romance with planning. So I might not be too good for flowers, but I'm pretty good at booking a hot air balloon ride for two for a special birthday. 

When people say, 'you must be mild' or 'I never would have guessed you have Aspergers', I feel like saying to them, 'well, what behaviour do you expect to see, and what should someone with Aspergers look like'?. I never say this, but maybe I should. THere is no such thing as a one-size-fits all standardized AS presentation. All presentations represent the spectrum that is autism, and as Someone points out, AS is an 'invisible' disability because it mostly concerns thought processes, perceptions, consequent anxiety and information processing differences. Some people with AS manifest in a more 'obvious' way, as exhibited in unsual mannerisms and voice intonation, but there are an equal number of people with AS whose condition is camouflaged and who on first impression do not seem that different, myself being one of them. But if someone could really see the constant anxiety I face every day, the obsessions, uncertainties, organizational problems, difficulty securing employment and making friends, they would hardly call my condition 'mild'.

NAS11521 said:

[quote]Are you saying it is pointless therefore trying to educate people about the difficulties people on the autistic spectrum have with social communication/environmental perception? [/quote]

Well, no - it's always worth trying.  It's just that I believe few people are able to understand or empathise with something they don't experience themselves. 

you are right, it took me a good few years to get close to understanding the sensory issues my partner has and how its actually his brain that is the cause of this, not him and not his psychology

most people, even nts, have a real problem empathising with or understanding things they cant SEE

this is why more needs to be done in education of what autism is, the brain

longman said:

To go back to some_one's original posting, what do I think NTs can do for us?

Well I think we need proper recognition of the communications issue. We aren't blind and we aren't deaf, but something goes wrong in the way we process audio-visual information, whether environmental or to do with social communication. Whether you call it mind blindness, not connecting to the interbrain (Tantam's theory), narrow information processing bandwidth or over/under sensitivity or whatever, one of the most fundamental issues to autism is that we aren't getting the right information (or conveying the right information).

At present people accept a blind or partially sighted person and accept a deaf or impaired hearing person. Nobody challenges whether they can or cannot see or hear.

People on the autistic spectrum experience modified and compromised audio-visual input. And that probably underlies most of the other manifestations. But its the least understood aspect of autism/aspergers. Everybody challenges why we didn't hear or see, demands eye contact, expects us to cope in their world.

I do wish NAS would give higher profile to the sensory aspects. Because that, primarily, is what makes it hard for all of us.

It comes out very obviously in psychiatric approaches to autism - well we've drugged you, and we've talked you round to our way of thinking - you should be alright now. But they never seem to realise that we still have a social communication and an environmental sensitivity problem that doesn't go away and they cannot cure. And that's what causes distress and anxiety.

So NAS if you are listening, can we have a campaign to raise the profile of audio-visual perception of social interaction and environment as a priority need of people on the spectrum.

Maybe if the public were more aware that that was a fundamental problem for us, they might be more tolerant and understanding.

very well said and brilliant point

it fits with the standard 'you dont look autistic' comment from people who still assume its a very visible noticible issue, when actually most of it occurs INSIDE the brain

i completely agree with you and i hope nas do listen to you on this

more needs to be put out there about the communcation part of autism, its a neglected area yet its probbaly the most important (along with the sensory issues)

Goatworshiper said:

I've learned to deal with touchy feely people (I some times work with Drama lovies (I hate them)) by telling them there touching the wrong part of me. That makes them feel uncomfortable and then the touchy feely stuff goes.

The behind the back thing I still struggle with. Because I'm a grump I make it known to people that if my life is made difficult, I will make others lives difficult, however I have stronger willpower than most. As harsh as this is it avoids a lot of confrontation and I get on with people better for letting it known I won't tolerate. 

Emmotional/Irrational stuff is odd. I don't mind people crying or being upset. I think it's people telling me how I feel about stuff I don't like. For instance people saying "you said x and therefore you feel y", and Im more of a x means x and y means y. I'am not very romantic, but that's because I'm not romantic, It doesn't mean I don't love you etc. 

My mum does my head in with emotional stuff. She refuses to accept objectivity. She fat and cries if a doctor says she's obese. Where I see obese as a clinical definition of someone who is overweight by a certain proportion. 

When/if I get a diagnosis I might start being open with people which might help some of this stuff.

i have to say i did giggle at your comment about your mum,

i understand your reasons and you have a valid point, but i also understand hers,

being told you are fat (to a fat person, or to a woman) is like being told you are worthless and usless, because usually YOU made you fat and most people know that, but most also dont like being made to feel THEY could have done something about it

also, you might have noticed, most nts dont really like 'the truth', for different reasons

many people cant handle the truth and objectivity of autism, sometimes even the autistic persons family and ESPECIALLY when its about them

you can try talking to her about it, ask her 'mum what is it that upsets you about this? do you want to be healthy? i will help you do that but i dont understand why you get upset when we talk about what it is that you need help with', listen to what she says about it (even if it seems irrational or like it doesnt make sense )

try to make it less personal and less her fault,speak about it to her like 'its a problem and we can change that' 

we nts respond better to facts and truth IF they come along with support, help and some nice things like 'i love you mum, i want you to be healthy, happy' etc

hehehe "touching the wrong part of me" at least it works for you

it is harsh, but i understand it, being with an autistic partner for 12 years ive learned to see things that way too, i can totally understand why you think that and if it works then again thats the point

the 'it doesnt mean i dont love you' i know that one well, i will just end on, i know, and i think many other people with autistic family and partners will know too, you will find someone who accepts that part

Its what I was afraid of - some University URLs, while being traceable by searching, cannot be repeated - security I guess.  Finding your way through the menu is equally tricky, but you might get there just by using their search option.

If you go to Bournemouth University's web page www.bournemouth.ac.uk - I took the "staff" option (top right hand corner of the home page) though I think this can be accessed as a student. I'm just surprised their staff pages are accessible to students.On the page this opens, scroll down to and click on "Academic Support". (I bet there are several routes to this page).

Under Academic Support chose "Disability Support". Top left of this page is a list of options. I took the "staff" one again. This got me a page "Academic Support - Disability Support"

On of the options in the list of four in the middle of the page "Academic Support - Disability Support", the third one, is "understanding additional learning needs and disabilities". Click on that.

This gives you a page with a list of disabilities. The top one is "aspergers".  Click on that and you get what I was on about.

Confused?  I bet you are. Lots of Universities tell students they can find the information they want on the University web pages. Patently not. Its easy to quote a web page to a student. It is really a hard search for most students to find anything useful, and this sequence proves it.

Having got there though, this is one of the best on-line advice services for staff on how to support disabled students. However the reason I flagged it up is it still must leave teaching staff nonplussed. It really isn't that easy a read!

And it may be quite a revelation for people on the spectrum, how teaching staff are told to regard us.

It is sometimes interesting to see how organisations perceive they should address our needs. I found this in a general search on the web and the url may be incorrect, but it should be possible to access via the Bournemouth University staff section www.bournemouth.ac.uk/.../asperger.html 

By the standards of most universities this is an amazing amount of information, and while a lot of it is clinical and "text-booky" it is very appropriate advice for the most part. At the end there are fact sheets for how staff should approach students on the spectrum. I feel slightly like a zoo animal reading the public notice on the outside of the cage!

But if you can access this, one way or the other, this is what university staff are being told about how to deal with students with AS.  It is fairly similar to what most universities are doing even if most don't set it out in as much detail on their websites.

Also, although the context is university students, read it as a guide to people on the spectrum generally.

How comfortable are you with what is being said?

OK so my argument wasn't so "black and white" as I had hoped. Incidentally some blind people have autism/aspergers and so do some deaf people.

Are you saying it is pointless therefore trying to educate people about the difficulties people on the autistic spectrum have with social communication/environmental perception?

To go back to some_one's original posting, what do I think NTs can do for us?

Well I think we need proper recognition of the communications issue. We aren't blind and we aren't deaf, but something goes wrong in the way we process audio-visual information, whether environmental or to do with social communication. Whether you call it mind blindness, not connecting to the interbrain (Tantam's theory), narrow information processing bandwidth or over/under sensitivity or whatever, one of the most fundamental issues to autism is that we aren't getting the right information (or conveying the right information).

At present people accept a blind or partially sighted person and accept a deaf or impaired hearing person. Nobody challenges whether they can or cannot see or hear.

People on the autistic spectrum experience modified and compromised audio-visual input. And that probably underlies most of the other manifestations. But its the least understood aspect of autism/aspergers. Everybody challenges why we didn't hear or see, demands eye contact, expects us to cope in their world.

I do wish NAS would give higher profile to the sensory aspects. Because that, primarily, is what makes it hard for all of us.

It comes out very obviously in psychiatric approaches to autism - well we've drugged you, and we've talked you round to our way of thinking - you should be alright now. But they never seem to realise that we still have a social communication and an environmental sensitivity problem that doesn't go away and they cannot cure. And that's what causes distress and anxiety.

So NAS if you are listening, can we have a campaign to raise the profile of audio-visual perception of social interaction and environment as a priority need of people on the spectrum.

Maybe if the public were more aware that that was a fundamental problem for us, they might be more tolerant and understanding.

some one said:

[quote][/quote]

I havnt got a diagnosis. But I wish people would confront me at work if I do something wrong rather than go to someone higher in command, If people go to a superviser I tend to get really frustrated as I dont like sly people.

I wish people would just be truthful. I can't do all of this unspoken stuff.

I wish people would be rational and not hysterical.

Don't space invade.

i understand that, must be frustrating all the 'behind your back' stuff that goes on in neurotypicals lives, frustrates some of us nts too

ahh the 'rational not hysterical' issue,

i have this once a month with my partner (you can guess why us females have hormones you know )

i want to say this tho, what autistics seem as 'irrational/hysterical SOMETIMES is just emotional, which i understand as yous dont think very emotional can seem that way, but its not always the case

its difficult for both sides on this, it does feel, from my perspective at least, that as autism leads to more logical and less emotional thinking, emotional thinking that us nts have is often seen as 'irrational, its not, its just different, same as your thinking is

try to take our 'emotional/irational' side for what it is, its just the way we think, same as you think logical , they can clash a lot and i think thats the real problem

neither side is 'wrong' in their thinking

i dont think people mean to invade space, but i have noticed a recent (in the last few years) trend to be more touchy with strangers, hopefully the peopel you know well know to not invade your space but you will probably have to deal with a lot of strangers doing it

tho if you try to make it clear you have autism and basically dont like being touched, they wil probably remember that (tho its obviously tricky as it can lead to them judging you on that, its not an easy issue)

I've learned to deal with touchy feely people (I some times work with Drama lovies (I hate them)) by telling them there touching the wrong part of me. That makes them feel uncomfortable and then the touchy feely stuff goes.

The behind the back thing I still struggle with. Because I'm a grump I make it known to people that if my life is made difficult, I will make others lives difficult, however I have stronger willpower than most. As harsh as this is it avoids a lot of confrontation and I get on with people better for letting it known I won't tolerate. 

Emmotional/Irrational stuff is odd. I don't mind people crying or being upset. I think it's people telling me how I feel about stuff I don't like. For instance people saying "you said x and therefore you feel y", and Im more of a x means x and y means y. I'am not very romantic, but that's because I'm not romantic, It doesn't mean I don't love you etc. 

My mum does my head in with emotional stuff. She refuses to accept objectivity. She fat and cries if a doctor says she's obese. Where I see obese as a clinical definition of someone who is overweight by a certain proportion. 

When/if I get a diagnosis I might start being open with people which might help some of this stuff.

Hope said:

Stranger: this is not correct. I have a bus pass and I am on LOWER rate DLA. However,  you need higher rate to get a carer's bus pass

Because bus passes are issued by local authorities/councils, this is probably one of those things that varies from place to place (some have looser criteria than the national minimal criteria laid out by the government).

Stranger: this is not correct. I have a bus pass and I am on LOWER rate DLA. However,  you need higher rate to get a carer's bus pass