On The Ontological Status Of Autism And Double Empathy

Deepthought said:

Milton does not suggest that non-autistic people are less capable of developing an understanding of autism than vice versa; as he points out, it is simply that autistic people have no choice but to try to develop an understanding of society if they are to ‘survive and potentially thrive’ whereas no such imperative applies in the opposite direction (Milton 2012).

The thing that makes me smile here, is Milton's and other's hypothesis that there is no imperative for non-autistic people to use an Autistic Theory-of-Mind (or AToM) ~ with my amusement arising from the fact that non-autistic and autistic parents have been having and raising autistic children for thousands of years now, and the use of an AToM or a Divergent Theory of Mind (DToM) has remained historically concurrent in all cultures and societies, therefore.

Also, societal ToM models that involve 'surviving and potentially thriving' ideologies featuring 'imperatives' are proving currently to be more and more unreliable, whereas when we live as we actually are ~ we thereby facilitate our life as it actually is in the dependable and reliable sense.

Don’t you find it a very blunt instrument of judgement though?

. said:

Don’t you find it a very blunt instrument of judgement though?

If judgement is employed the blunt instrument factor can very much become the case, yes. How do you imagine its application to be like a blunt instrument in the above respect?

Love it! Best response EVER! Loving your mind DeepThought! 

Elephantintheroom wrote:

.....a silly flippant thought....as you know I can be both things....plus prone to finking! 

I am more prone to extensively divergent flinking!

Elephantintheroom wrote:

am I reaching an existential epiphany or just having a seizure?

If everything is making sense and your not all big and confused and surrounded by medical personnel or a crowd of concerned people ~ it could be an epiphany! 

Thank you Robert.  Don't overthink the connection between the femme fetale and autism!

Love the new avatar, at first I thought, Dax from star trek DS9. Now I realise it's Janet Leigh from Psycho.

.....a silly flippant thought....as you know I can be both things....plus prone to finking! 

am I reaching an existential epiphany or just having a seizure? 

Lol x

Sensational! ...... I shall return......the left corner of my paper bag is causing issues and I must away to work! Stand by your inbox....whichever you is there.....real, ideal, or spare me :)

The following is what I got in my e-mail in box and had an answer for:

Elephantintheroom wrote:

Riddle me this great oracle....

does everything have to be hard earned? Is humanity watching a person wiggle out of their own wet paper bag.

Climbing a mountain may not be easy, but the hard work involved is certainly worth it ~ for those who find it as such to be. Either way, easier work is involved with it too ~ such as appreciating the progressive levels and perspectives of the views.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

'Is humanity watching a person wiggle out of their own wet paper bag.'

In some ways yes, as some people watch as a person has a seizure for example, and in some ways no as some people will help quite readily, and others will walk straight on past.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

"Have you reached the peak of Maslow’s mountain?"

I did not as such reach the peak of Maslow's "mountain," as I reached the peak of my mountain instead.

I did though 'reach' the steps of Maslow's 'Hierarchy' or 'Pyramid' of developmental needs, when I started studying psychology, at the end of the eighties. 

As far as the Maslow model of needs goes, it is too functionally muddled and abstract for me, on account of it being all too western-modern ideology-expectation specific, and in order to save me some writing, abridging and editing energy, consider perhaps the following:

194.81.189.19/.../400

My model of 'parallel' coexisting sensibilities and needs; is as follows:

7.) Rational

6.) Sentimental

5.) Communicational

4.) Emotional

3.) Imaginal

2.) Reproductional

1,) Sensational

Carl Rogers also created a theory implicating a “growth potential” whose aim was to integrate congruently the “real self” and the “ideal self” thereby cultivating the emergence of the “fully functioning person”.

In my experience of things, I have found it more to be a case of integrating the intuitions and vitalisations of the "real self" or conscious sole ~ through the realities of the experiential selves, and as such actualise a more real or direct awareness of individual existence ~ rather than being distracted by imagining another me!!! 

Riddle me this great oracle....

does everything have to be hard earned? Is humanity just the process of watching a person wiggle out of their own wet paper bag., ....  .....on a serious note

Have  you reached the peak of Maslow’s mountain?

”. Self-actualization, according to Maslow, represents growth of an individual toward fulfillment of the highest needs; those for meaning in life, in particular. Carl Rogers also created a theory implicating a “growth potential” whose aim was to integrate congruently the “real self” and the “ideal self” thereby cultivating the emergence of the “fully functioning person”. It was Maslow, however, who created a psychological hierarchy of needs, the fulfillment of which theoretically leads to a culmination of fulfillment of “being values”, or the needs that are on the highest level of this hierarchy, representing meaning.”

www.psychologytoday.com/.../the-theory-self-actualization

Elephantintheroom wrote:

"So, DeepThought.....are you at peace with your place on this little bauble in space?"

I am content with where I am in the universe now, as I have a hard earned more or less working peace treaty on the go psychologically and physiologically.

So, DeepThought.....are you at peace with your place on this little bauble in space? 

Elephantintheroom wrote:

"Existential angst abounds ..."

It too will pass . . .

Elephantintheroom

Whose idea of self do  i conform to? She said scratching her head? Lol

The one furthest from the mind of you and deepest in the heart of you as sparkling and scintillating the purest luminosity of you ~ perhaps?

Existential angst abounds ...

Whose idea of self do  i conform to? She said scratching her head? Lol

Elephantintheroom wrote:

"So a degree of individualisation is tolerated, i suppose, as long as you can still perform in the world and adhere to societal homogeneity.'

As far as 'societal homogeneity' goes, even not adhering to it, or in other words rebelling against it, is still adhering to it.   

Elephantintheroom wrote:

'In some ways people like this it is gives them a "rule book" in terms of the key elements to conform to and leaves spaces in between for us to add our own sprinkle of uniqueness (provided that it does not upset anyone) and provided that we still remain "useful" members of society.'

As with conforming to or rebelling against societal homogeneity, not fitting in or not remaining "useful" is always societal gold either way, given that the fame game involves the blame game, or "Live as a warning to others" and "Don't be one of them" and all that.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

'However, as you allude, some people are disassociated from themselves...traumatically or maybe down to the "rules of engagement" from their particular culture.'

The trauma-disassociation factor applies for all societal members:

1.) Type ones by birth trauma just before, during or just after being born ~ labour, delivery, first breath and or all round environmental shock.

2.) Type twos on account of parent separation anxiety due as babies or as toddlers being left with others who are strangers to them (day-carers, baby-sitters and nannies etc). 

and

3.) Type threes on account of social and societal inclusion and exclusion anxieties or traumas involved with education mostly, and thereafter adult socialisation, initial employment for some and familial responsibilities for a few.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

'Some people may believe that they are individual but are just practicing mimicry."

Behavioural mimicry is not practised being that it is instinctual, it is behavioural modelling that is practised in terms of applying mimicked words and phrases in line with appropriate actions, objects and states of affairs in the social or surrounding environment. 

An individual is always an individual in respect of whether they are presenting their naturally inherent identity, and or else an assumed identity that is socially fostered and personally adopted.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

Fashion, for example, provides mass produced for us to wear and this are external indicators of wealth and compliance....external badges of what "camp" or tribe we belong to - i.e. Goth, Hippie, Punk, Skinhead...and then customise these again with a layer of our individuality....a tattoo, a safety pin etc.

Yeah, definitely.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

no wonder people just worn out trying to understand others!! :)

Totally, know thy self.  

Deepthought said:

What individuality actually is though ~ is not all that well considered by many, as they are traumatically disassociated from themselves, and thereby habitually pretending to be who they imagine they are, who they'd like to be, or who they are not.

Oddly enough, most people do not really like this state of affairs, in that, "Everybody has to do it and so must you do it too!" way of things. All big and jolly, "It's tradition you know!" or all big and not jolly. "Or else!!!"

So a degree of individualisation is tolerated, i suppose, as long as you can still perform in the world and adhere to societal homogeneity.  In some ways people like this it is gives them a "rule book" in terms of the key elements to conform to and leaves spaces in between for us to add our own sprinkle of uniqueness (provided that it does not upset anyone) and provided that we still remain "useful" members of society.

However, as you allude, some people are disassociated from themselves...traumatically or maybe down to the "rules of engagement" from their particular culture.  Some people may believe that they are individual but are just practicing mimicry.

Fashion, for example, provides mass produced costumes for us to wear and this are external indicators of wealth and compliance....external badges of what "camp" or tribe we belong to - i.e. Goth, Hippie, Punk, Skinhead...and then customise these again with a layer of our individuality....a tattoo, a safety pin etc.

no wonder people just worn out trying to understand others!! :)  

. said:

Would not even labotonmisation cure individualism?

Nope, not even a lobotomy, for by removing or damaging parts of the brain, only autonomous functioning is restricted, and autonomous experience and awareness remains constant ~ from four and half months gestation time, until the last breath.

. said:

Does the swamp of media fed, consumerism fed NT folk still class as “individuals”.

I would state that all the 'swathes' of media and consumerism led NT folk are always individuals, whether they be individuals singularly alone, or individuals collectively together.

It matters not what has been taken from the brain or put into the mind of an individual, it is still the brain and mind of an individual in each and every case experientially for them, as also being as we are equals.

. said:

....or even our herd mentality to scuttle under rocks and not be recognised as of worth negate scope for individualisation.

Well herd mentality supports or restricts scope for individualisation, more in some cases and less in others, yet it is still in each and every case that an individual is as such being socially supported or restricted.

. said:

....in a society that only just muster the effort to generalise...(yes, I ate my own words),..we are yet to celebrate individualism...too scared to, so just conform....instead....

As far as stating that we do not as a society celebrate individualism, the greater and the lesser majority of people do celebrate a 'collectively' shared and enforced 'ideal' of what individualism is assumed to be, in societal-behavioural terms. 

What individuality actually is though ~ is not all that well considered by many, as they are traumatically disassociated from themselves, and thereby habitually pretending to be who they imagine they are, who they'd like to be, or who they are not.

Oddly enough, most people do not really like this state of affairs, in that, "Everybody has to do it and so must you do it too!" way of things. All big and jolly, "It's tradition you know!" or all big and not jolly. "Or else!!!"

Pretending to be who we are or who we or others think we should be, becomes rather a strain through the course of life for each neurological type, and psychological issues ensue from preadolescent to post adolescent life stage crisisies, breakdowns and so on into the realms of insanity, senility and so fourth.

This collective psychological wounding and maiming will improve with a lot less of the "Or else!!!" phobia inducing behavioural imperative involved, which to a small extent is beneficial, yet much more so is a greater recollection that defaming and humiliating people because of age, gender and culture is excessively costly and damaging.

When more people learn to internally recycle their emotional turmoil instead of externally redirecting it at other people ~ that will be breath of fresh air, and in terms of being autistic or 'self-centric' ~ we are more predisposed to it just as non-autistic people are more predisposed to socialising.

I hope soon to come is a more generalised sense that there are different types of empathy for each neurological type, and just as is the case with different languages ~ some people comprehend more and others less. I hope also that those who have yet to learn are cherished equally as much as those who have learnt ~ all being equal.

Would not even labotonmisation cure individualism? Does the swamp of media fed, consumerism fed NT folk still class as “individuals”.  ....or even our herd mentality to scuttle under rocks and not be recognised as of worth negate scope for individualisation.....in a society that only just muster the effort to generalise...(yes, I ate my own words),..we are yet to celebrate individualism...too scared to, so just conform....instead....

i think I will launch a colour me Aspie colouring book....colour my mummy/wife/daughter etc  whilst passively absorbing in a non aggressive or threatening way its meaning or implications...:) 

loving the “bants”

. said:

Lol....delusions of superiority indeed!!...

Yeah, I nearly fell off the floor laughing when I read it.

Limbic sublimation therapy through laughter really helps shift delusions of superiority ~ as are but one range of presentations involving ''Inferiority Complex'' proper, what with delusions of mediocrity and inferiority being the other two ranges of presentation, just as much integrally.

The thing that made me laugh the most though ~ There is no known cure. I mean a cure for individuality ~ oh my whole life on this planet that makes me laugh. 

. said:

thank you for offering a “pretty” version of the women with ASD checklist....is that to make it more palatable!   

Oh its got little to do with making it more 'palatable' ~ emotional (think of the sweet looking Aspie child) bribery all the way! 

. said:

Lol....delusions of superiority indeed!!...

Yeah, I nearly fell off the floor laughing when I read it.

Limbic sublimation therapy through laughter really helps shift delusions of superiority ~ as are but one range of presentations involving ''Inferiority Complex'' proper, what with delusions of mediocrity and inferiority being the other two ranges of presentation, just as much integrally.

The thing that made me laugh the most though ~ There is no known cure. I mean a cure for individuality ~ oh my whole life on this planet that makes me laugh. 

. said:

thank you for offering a “pretty” version of the women with ASD checklist....is that to make it more palatable!   

Oh its got little to do with making it more 'palatable' ~ emotional (think of the sweet looking Aspie child) bribery all the way! 

Love it! Best response EVER! Loving your mind DeepThought! 

Elephantintheroom wrote:

.....a silly flippant thought....as you know I can be both things....plus prone to finking! 

I am more prone to extensively divergent flinking!

Elephantintheroom wrote:

am I reaching an existential epiphany or just having a seizure?

If everything is making sense and your not all big and confused and surrounded by medical personnel or a crowd of concerned people ~ it could be an epiphany! 

Thank you Robert.  Don't overthink the connection between the femme fetale and autism!

Love the new avatar, at first I thought, Dax from star trek DS9. Now I realise it's Janet Leigh from Psycho.

.....a silly flippant thought....as you know I can be both things....plus prone to finking! 

am I reaching an existential epiphany or just having a seizure? 

Lol x

Sensational! ...... I shall return......the left corner of my paper bag is causing issues and I must away to work! Stand by your inbox....whichever you is there.....real, ideal, or spare me :)

The following is what I got in my e-mail in box and had an answer for:

Elephantintheroom wrote:

Riddle me this great oracle....

does everything have to be hard earned? Is humanity watching a person wiggle out of their own wet paper bag.

Climbing a mountain may not be easy, but the hard work involved is certainly worth it ~ for those who find it as such to be. Either way, easier work is involved with it too ~ such as appreciating the progressive levels and perspectives of the views.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

'Is humanity watching a person wiggle out of their own wet paper bag.'

In some ways yes, as some people watch as a person has a seizure for example, and in some ways no as some people will help quite readily, and others will walk straight on past.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

"Have you reached the peak of Maslow’s mountain?"

I did not as such reach the peak of Maslow's "mountain," as I reached the peak of my mountain instead.

I did though 'reach' the steps of Maslow's 'Hierarchy' or 'Pyramid' of developmental needs, when I started studying psychology, at the end of the eighties. 

As far as the Maslow model of needs goes, it is too functionally muddled and abstract for me, on account of it being all too western-modern ideology-expectation specific, and in order to save me some writing, abridging and editing energy, consider perhaps the following:

194.81.189.19/.../400

My model of 'parallel' coexisting sensibilities and needs; is as follows:

7.) Rational

6.) Sentimental

5.) Communicational

4.) Emotional

3.) Imaginal

2.) Reproductional

1,) Sensational

Carl Rogers also created a theory implicating a “growth potential” whose aim was to integrate congruently the “real self” and the “ideal self” thereby cultivating the emergence of the “fully functioning person”.

In my experience of things, I have found it more to be a case of integrating the intuitions and vitalisations of the "real self" or conscious sole ~ through the realities of the experiential selves, and as such actualise a more real or direct awareness of individual existence ~ rather than being distracted by imagining another me!!! 

Riddle me this great oracle....

does everything have to be hard earned? Is humanity just the process of watching a person wiggle out of their own wet paper bag., ....  .....on a serious note

Have  you reached the peak of Maslow’s mountain?

”. Self-actualization, according to Maslow, represents growth of an individual toward fulfillment of the highest needs; those for meaning in life, in particular. Carl Rogers also created a theory implicating a “growth potential” whose aim was to integrate congruently the “real self” and the “ideal self” thereby cultivating the emergence of the “fully functioning person”. It was Maslow, however, who created a psychological hierarchy of needs, the fulfillment of which theoretically leads to a culmination of fulfillment of “being values”, or the needs that are on the highest level of this hierarchy, representing meaning.”

www.psychologytoday.com/.../the-theory-self-actualization

Elephantintheroom wrote:

"So, DeepThought.....are you at peace with your place on this little bauble in space?"

I am content with where I am in the universe now, as I have a hard earned more or less working peace treaty on the go psychologically and physiologically.

So, DeepThought.....are you at peace with your place on this little bauble in space? 

Elephantintheroom wrote:

"Existential angst abounds ..."

It too will pass . . .

Elephantintheroom

Whose idea of self do  i conform to? She said scratching her head? Lol

The one furthest from the mind of you and deepest in the heart of you as sparkling and scintillating the purest luminosity of you ~ perhaps?

Existential angst abounds ...

Whose idea of self do  i conform to? She said scratching her head? Lol

Elephantintheroom wrote:

"So a degree of individualisation is tolerated, i suppose, as long as you can still perform in the world and adhere to societal homogeneity.'

As far as 'societal homogeneity' goes, even not adhering to it, or in other words rebelling against it, is still adhering to it.   

Elephantintheroom wrote:

'In some ways people like this it is gives them a "rule book" in terms of the key elements to conform to and leaves spaces in between for us to add our own sprinkle of uniqueness (provided that it does not upset anyone) and provided that we still remain "useful" members of society.'

As with conforming to or rebelling against societal homogeneity, not fitting in or not remaining "useful" is always societal gold either way, given that the fame game involves the blame game, or "Live as a warning to others" and "Don't be one of them" and all that.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

'However, as you allude, some people are disassociated from themselves...traumatically or maybe down to the "rules of engagement" from their particular culture.'

The trauma-disassociation factor applies for all societal members:

1.) Type ones by birth trauma just before, during or just after being born ~ labour, delivery, first breath and or all round environmental shock.

2.) Type twos on account of parent separation anxiety due as babies or as toddlers being left with others who are strangers to them (day-carers, baby-sitters and nannies etc). 

and

3.) Type threes on account of social and societal inclusion and exclusion anxieties or traumas involved with education mostly, and thereafter adult socialisation, initial employment for some and familial responsibilities for a few.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

'Some people may believe that they are individual but are just practicing mimicry."

Behavioural mimicry is not practised being that it is instinctual, it is behavioural modelling that is practised in terms of applying mimicked words and phrases in line with appropriate actions, objects and states of affairs in the social or surrounding environment. 

An individual is always an individual in respect of whether they are presenting their naturally inherent identity, and or else an assumed identity that is socially fostered and personally adopted.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

Fashion, for example, provides mass produced for us to wear and this are external indicators of wealth and compliance....external badges of what "camp" or tribe we belong to - i.e. Goth, Hippie, Punk, Skinhead...and then customise these again with a layer of our individuality....a tattoo, a safety pin etc.

Yeah, definitely.

Elephantintheroom wrote:

no wonder people just worn out trying to understand others!! :)

Totally, know thy self.  

Deepthought said:

What individuality actually is though ~ is not all that well considered by many, as they are traumatically disassociated from themselves, and thereby habitually pretending to be who they imagine they are, who they'd like to be, or who they are not.

Oddly enough, most people do not really like this state of affairs, in that, "Everybody has to do it and so must you do it too!" way of things. All big and jolly, "It's tradition you know!" or all big and not jolly. "Or else!!!"

So a degree of individualisation is tolerated, i suppose, as long as you can still perform in the world and adhere to societal homogeneity.  In some ways people like this it is gives them a "rule book" in terms of the key elements to conform to and leaves spaces in between for us to add our own sprinkle of uniqueness (provided that it does not upset anyone) and provided that we still remain "useful" members of society.

However, as you allude, some people are disassociated from themselves...traumatically or maybe down to the "rules of engagement" from their particular culture.  Some people may believe that they are individual but are just practicing mimicry.

Fashion, for example, provides mass produced costumes for us to wear and this are external indicators of wealth and compliance....external badges of what "camp" or tribe we belong to - i.e. Goth, Hippie, Punk, Skinhead...and then customise these again with a layer of our individuality....a tattoo, a safety pin etc.

no wonder people just worn out trying to understand others!! :)  

. said:

Would not even labotonmisation cure individualism?

Nope, not even a lobotomy, for by removing or damaging parts of the brain, only autonomous functioning is restricted, and autonomous experience and awareness remains constant ~ from four and half months gestation time, until the last breath.

. said:

Does the swamp of media fed, consumerism fed NT folk still class as “individuals”.

I would state that all the 'swathes' of media and consumerism led NT folk are always individuals, whether they be individuals singularly alone, or individuals collectively together.

It matters not what has been taken from the brain or put into the mind of an individual, it is still the brain and mind of an individual in each and every case experientially for them, as also being as we are equals.

. said:

....or even our herd mentality to scuttle under rocks and not be recognised as of worth negate scope for individualisation.

Well herd mentality supports or restricts scope for individualisation, more in some cases and less in others, yet it is still in each and every case that an individual is as such being socially supported or restricted.

. said:

....in a society that only just muster the effort to generalise...(yes, I ate my own words),..we are yet to celebrate individualism...too scared to, so just conform....instead....

As far as stating that we do not as a society celebrate individualism, the greater and the lesser majority of people do celebrate a 'collectively' shared and enforced 'ideal' of what individualism is assumed to be, in societal-behavioural terms. 

What individuality actually is though ~ is not all that well considered by many, as they are traumatically disassociated from themselves, and thereby habitually pretending to be who they imagine they are, who they'd like to be, or who they are not.

Oddly enough, most people do not really like this state of affairs, in that, "Everybody has to do it and so must you do it too!" way of things. All big and jolly, "It's tradition you know!" or all big and not jolly. "Or else!!!"

Pretending to be who we are or who we or others think we should be, becomes rather a strain through the course of life for each neurological type, and psychological issues ensue from preadolescent to post adolescent life stage crisisies, breakdowns and so on into the realms of insanity, senility and so fourth.

This collective psychological wounding and maiming will improve with a lot less of the "Or else!!!" phobia inducing behavioural imperative involved, which to a small extent is beneficial, yet much more so is a greater recollection that defaming and humiliating people because of age, gender and culture is excessively costly and damaging.

When more people learn to internally recycle their emotional turmoil instead of externally redirecting it at other people ~ that will be breath of fresh air, and in terms of being autistic or 'self-centric' ~ we are more predisposed to it just as non-autistic people are more predisposed to socialising.

I hope soon to come is a more generalised sense that there are different types of empathy for each neurological type, and just as is the case with different languages ~ some people comprehend more and others less. I hope also that those who have yet to learn are cherished equally as much as those who have learnt ~ all being equal.

Would not even labotonmisation cure individualism? Does the swamp of media fed, consumerism fed NT folk still class as “individuals”.  ....or even our herd mentality to scuttle under rocks and not be recognised as of worth negate scope for individualisation.....in a society that only just muster the effort to generalise...(yes, I ate my own words),..we are yet to celebrate individualism...too scared to, so just conform....instead....

i think I will launch a colour me Aspie colouring book....colour my mummy/wife/daughter etc  whilst passively absorbing in a non aggressive or threatening way its meaning or implications...:) 

loving the “bants”