Deepthought said:Milton does not suggest that non-autistic people are less capable of developing an understanding of autism than vice versa; as he points out, it is simply that autistic people have no choice but to try to develop an understanding of society if they are to ‘survive and potentially thrive’ whereas no such imperative applies in the opposite direction (Milton 2012).
The thing that makes me smile here, is Milton's and other's hypothesis that there is no imperative for non-autistic people to use an Autistic Theory-of-Mind (or AToM) ~ with my amusement arising from the fact that non-autistic and autistic parents have been having and raising autistic children for thousands of years now, and the use of an AToM or a Divergent Theory of Mind (DToM) has remained historically concurrent in all cultures and societies, therefore.
Also, societal ToM models that involve 'surviving and potentially thriving' ideologies featuring 'imperatives' are proving currently to be more and more unreliable, whereas when we live as we actually are ~ we thereby facilitate our life as it actually is in the dependable and reliable sense.
Don’t you find it a very blunt instrument of judgement though?
. said:Don’t you find it a very blunt instrument of judgement though?
If judgement is employed the blunt instrument factor can very much become the case, yes. How do you imagine its application to be like a blunt instrument in the above respect?
. said:As the Elephant in the Room..... life and the universe may well be founded upon simple and clear cut constructs...
Well rather than clear 'cut' constructs ~ go perhaps for the clearly 'defined' ones as they are alot safer and saves as such on the Elastoplasts too!!! :-)
Would God make a rock that he could not lift?, after all! - lol!
Maybe it is just my inability to comprehend it as such or more importantly be able to successfully filter out (as well as you so brilliantly demonstrate) the illogical and erroneous to get to the centre of said rock! Just when the water clears we muddy the pond!
The bit about me so brilliantly demonstrating my successful filtering ~ just be glad you get to see the filtered stuff as I am easter islanded right up to my neck here in the mud left over. ;-)
. said:So much Existential angst for the Tuesday morning!! x
Well Existentialism comes in other flavours too you know ~ Existential elixir is very refreshing! :-)
"....one reason each of these mental conditions has been defined as abnormal by our society is because it violates one or more important social values or virtues. By specifying precisely which human behaviors represent abnormal functioning, society essentially upholds those social values that it regards as sacrosanct."
alternatively...in relation to ASD and ToM
According to Henry and Camilla Markrams Intense World Syndrome theory (2007):
The intense world that the autistic person faces could easily become aversive if the amygdala and related emotional areas are affected with hyper-reactivity and hyper-plasticity. The lack of social interaction in autism may therefore not be because of deficits in the ability to process social and emotional cues as previously thought, but because a subset of cues are overly intense, compulsively attended to, excessively processed, and remembered with frightening clarity and intensity. Autistic people may therefore neither be mind-blind at all nor lack empathy for others, but be hyper-aware of selected fragments of the mind, which may be so intense that they avoid eye contact, withdraw from social interactions and stop communicating.
Thank you for that ellie,it gives a potential understanding of how we process everything.
I am out of here,,,whoosh >>>>>>>>
Does it register with you.. ?... the underlined bit?
It does register,,,,maybe to much for my own sanity,
I have struggled and fought to exhist ,To do this I have learnt to interact as it is needed,I can if I try hard look people in the eye and my life involves social interaction or become excluded. These have been necessary to continue existing.
I empathise to the point it overwhelms me and causes me much turmoil and pain.
The intensity can cause me physical pain as well as mental confusion.
I can however flick the switch in my mind! I can be so very low and at it’s lowest I can flick the switch and wake up,,,,I feel as if I am looking down at myself and wondering why their is such suffering, it then starts to fade as I reason with the causes and I feel it must cease in order to continue my own exhistance.
I apologise for sounding so down but my empathy is overwhelming at times and I thought it might add to this discussion.
I do not pretend to fully understand my mind or feelings, I try to reason with why I feel so intensely.
I am a product of many things and cannot control the intensity or when they will take effect.
. said:Does it register with you.. ?... the underlined bit?
Register it does, yes. And recalling the following:
Deepthought said:Autistic people are more self-centric (internally centred) and their genetic and linguistic architectures are more functionally specialised, and concretely receptive.
In terms of a person with autism being then Self-centric, or internally centred, the Self is our conscious vitality, and the internal centring of which makes the linguistic and genetic architectures of our sensibilities more externally vitalised, and sensitised.
Hyper-sensitivity and also hypo-sensitivity issues are not uncommon in ASD.
Do you sleep DeepThought?
and so myself and the argument also rotates on its own centred axis! Lol
Sleep? Getting dictionary out, and ruffling through pages . . .
'Well' not as deeply nor as often as I would like to ~ what with the old bucket of wakefulness and the not so novel insomniac wall of death together getting on occasion 'well' boring, although ~ they do bring up some archaeological curios from the subconscious and unconscious depths of the burgeoning deep.
Basically I refer to myself as being a 'night-shifter' or 'night-owl' ~ as I am hyper-sensitive to light and have synaesthesia which makes sunlight rather loud, and the lazy or weak sunshine of the early morning allows me to sleep, doze or at least rest until mid afternoon sometimes.
The why the otherwise enabled are essential to the human ecosystem article was a bit of existential elixir ~ with a particular choosey bit for me being:
Each civilization also defines its own forms of giftedness. In ancient cultures that depended upon religious rituals for social cohesion, it might have been the schizophrenics (who heard the voices of the gods) or the obsessive compulsives (who carried out the precise rituals) who were the gifted ones. Even in today’s world, being in the right place at the right time seems to be critical in terms of defining whether you will be regarded as gifted or disabled.
This struck all my cords what with the metaphysical, philosophical and theosophical territories being my first major footings in terms of finding about my experiences as an Aspergian Schizotype.
And from the different presentation of Asperger's syndrome in girls:
Girls language typically develops in sophistication and abstraction earlier than that of their male classmates. This, combined with different physiological and emotional development, and transition to secondary school, frequently causes the time of puberty to distinguish girls on the spectrum, who had previously seemed to blend in through their use of echopraxic behaviours. That is, girls with AS will very often carefully watch other girls, to learn how they are expected to behave, and therefore can for several years seem to be fitting in socially. For example, an autistic autobiographer has written that: I watched people like a scientist watches an experiment (Holliday Willey, 1999, p.42).
This struck all my more numerous feminine chords (F7/M4), as the sociological and psychological territories were my second major footing on account of which.
Also from the feminine approach to recognising Asperger's Syndrome, try perhaps if you have not done so before:
I shall read the article with interest and report back......I am pleased you found the article on societal perception of gifted and disabled enlightening....and your reflections on sleep.
i concur with you in that societal cohesion is a restraint that can can be too narrowly framed and can the negate the positive and enlightening contributions that everyone can offer
i am glad you are looking after the night shift.
So....the checklist is very comprehensive...I shall print numerous copies and give it to my Christmas visitors...I am self diagnosed as ....? ...... but this makes a lot of sense....
now...here is a question.....write me a NT checklist! Lol
. said:now...here is a question.....write me a NT checklist! Lol
I have actually seen quite a few in my time, but as a summary:
Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity. There is no known cure. (Laura Tisoncik 1998)
. said:So....the checklist is very comprehensive
Yup, it certainly is that.
. said:...I shall print numerous copies and give it to my Christmas visitors...
If you or your Christmas visitors would like the softer and friendlier looking print version, with pictures and introduction too:
. said:I am self diagnosed as ....?
As an Elephant in the room ~ surely? ;-)
. said:.... but this makes a lot of sense....
Pretty much a clarification guaranteed affair, really.
Lol....delusions of superiority indeed!!...
thank you for offering a “pretty” version of the women with ASD checklist....is that to make it more palatable!
. said:Lol....delusions of superiority indeed!!...
Yeah, I nearly fell off the floor laughing when I read it.
Limbic sublimation therapy through laughter really helps shift delusions of superiority ~ as are but one range of presentations involving ''Inferiority Complex'' proper, what with delusions of mediocrity and inferiority being the other two ranges of presentation, just as much integrally.
The thing that made me laugh the most though ~ There is no known cure. I mean a cure for individuality ~ oh my whole life on this planet that makes me laugh.
. said:thank you for offering a “pretty” version of the women with ASD checklist....is that to make it more palatable!
Oh its got little to do with making it more 'palatable' ~ emotional (think of the sweet looking Aspie child) bribery all the way!
Would not even labotonmisation cure individualism? Does the swamp of media fed, consumerism fed NT folk still class as “individuals”. ....or even our herd mentality to scuttle under rocks and not be recognised as of worth negate scope for individualisation.....in a society that only just muster the effort to generalise...(yes, I ate my own words),..we are yet to celebrate individualism...too scared to, so just conform....instead....
i think I will launch a colour me Aspie colouring book....colour my mummy/wife/daughter etc whilst passively absorbing in a non aggressive or threatening way its meaning or implications...:)
loving the “bants”
. said:Would not even labotonmisation cure individualism?
Nope, not even a lobotomy, for by removing or damaging parts of the brain, only autonomous functioning is restricted, and autonomous experience and awareness remains constant ~ from four and half months gestation time, until the last breath.
. said:Does the swamp of media fed, consumerism fed NT folk still class as “individuals”.
I would state that all the 'swathes' of media and consumerism led NT folk are always individuals, whether they be individuals singularly alone, or individuals collectively together.
It matters not what has been taken from the brain or put into the mind of an individual, it is still the brain and mind of an individual in each and every case experientially for them, as also being as we are equals.
. said:....or even our herd mentality to scuttle under rocks and not be recognised as of worth negate scope for individualisation.
Well herd mentality supports or restricts scope for individualisation, more in some cases and less in others, yet it is still in each and every case that an individual is as such being socially supported or restricted.
. said:....in a society that only just muster the effort to generalise...(yes, I ate my own words),..we are yet to celebrate individualism...too scared to, so just conform....instead....
As far as stating that we do not as a society celebrate individualism, the greater and the lesser majority of people do celebrate a 'collectively' shared and enforced 'ideal' of what individualism is assumed to be, in societal-behavioural terms.
What individuality actually is though ~ is not all that well considered by many, as they are traumatically disassociated from themselves, and thereby habitually pretending to be who they imagine they are, who they'd like to be, or who they are not.
Oddly enough, most people do not really like this state of affairs, in that, "Everybody has to do it and so must you do it too!" way of things. All big and jolly, "It's tradition you know!" or all big and not jolly. "Or else!!!"
Pretending to be who we are or who we or others think we should be, becomes rather a strain through the course of life for each neurological type, and psychological issues ensue from preadolescent to post adolescent life stage crisisies, breakdowns and so on into the realms of insanity, senility and so fourth.
This collective psychological wounding and maiming will improve with a lot less of the "Or else!!!" phobia inducing behavioural imperative involved, which to a small extent is beneficial, yet much more so is a greater recollection that defaming and humiliating people because of age, gender and culture is excessively costly and damaging.
When more people learn to internally recycle their emotional turmoil instead of externally redirecting it at other people ~ that will be breath of fresh air, and in terms of being autistic or 'self-centric' ~ we are more predisposed to it just as non-autistic people are more predisposed to socialising.
I hope soon to come is a more generalised sense that there are different types of empathy for each neurological type, and just as is the case with different languages ~ some people comprehend more and others less. I hope also that those who have yet to learn are cherished equally as much as those who have learnt ~ all being equal.
So a degree of individualisation is tolerated, i suppose, as long as you can still perform in the world and adhere to societal homogeneity. In some ways people like this it is gives them a "rule book" in terms of the key elements to conform to and leaves spaces in between for us to add our own sprinkle of uniqueness (provided that it does not upset anyone) and provided that we still remain "useful" members of society.
However, as you allude, some people are disassociated from themselves...traumatically or maybe down to the "rules of engagement" from their particular culture. Some people may believe that they are individual but are just practicing mimicry.
Fashion, for example, provides mass produced costumes for us to wear and this are external indicators of wealth and compliance....external badges of what "camp" or tribe we belong to - i.e. Goth, Hippie, Punk, Skinhead...and then customise these again with a layer of our individuality....a tattoo, a safety pin etc.
no wonder people just worn out trying to understand others!! :)
"So a degree of individualisation is tolerated, i suppose, as long as you can still perform in the world and adhere to societal homogeneity.'
As far as 'societal homogeneity' goes, even not adhering to it, or in other words rebelling against it, is still adhering to it.
'In some ways people like this it is gives them a "rule book" in terms of the key elements to conform to and leaves spaces in between for us to add our own sprinkle of uniqueness (provided that it does not upset anyone) and provided that we still remain "useful" members of society.'
As with conforming to or rebelling against societal homogeneity, not fitting in or not remaining "useful" is always societal gold either way, given that the fame game involves the blame game, or "Live as a warning to others" and "Don't be one of them" and all that.
'However, as you allude, some people are disassociated from themselves...traumatically or maybe down to the "rules of engagement" from their particular culture.'
The trauma-disassociation factor applies for all societal members:
1.) Type ones by birth trauma just before, during or just after being born ~ labour, delivery, first breath and or all round environmental shock.
2.) Type twos on account of parent separation anxiety due as babies or as toddlers being left with others who are strangers to them (day-carers, baby-sitters and nannies etc).
3.) Type threes on account of social and societal inclusion and exclusion anxieties or traumas involved with education mostly, and thereafter adult socialisation, initial employment for some and familial responsibilities for a few.
'Some people may believe that they are individual but are just practicing mimicry."
Behavioural mimicry is not practised being that it is instinctual, it is behavioural modelling that is practised in terms of applying mimicked words and phrases in line with appropriate actions, objects and states of affairs in the social or surrounding environment.
An individual is always an individual in respect of whether they are presenting their naturally inherent identity, and or else an assumed identity that is socially fostered and personally adopted.
Fashion, for example, provides mass produced for us to wear and this are external indicators of wealth and compliance....external badges of what "camp" or tribe we belong to - i.e. Goth, Hippie, Punk, Skinhead...and then customise these again with a layer of our individuality....a tattoo, a safety pin etc.
no wonder people just worn out trying to understand others!! :)
Totally, know thy self.
Whose idea of self do i conform to? She said scratching her head? Lol