Extreme Love : Autism

Hi Al, 

Thanks for that, online discussions do always require a little tact compared to face to face conversations. 

It's interesting you bring up 9/11 as an example of your thinking. You state you're not a structural engineer but that no one after watching a youtube video could feel that the collision of those planes was the cause. Except you're creating the idea that the idea is impossible, but lots of other people have an entirely different view. Here's just a quick article that does disagree with that fundamental assumption you're making. 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-the-twin-towers-fell  

On a similar tack, one of the things you seem to see as absolute is that more children have autism than adults - that there has been an increase in the rate for some reason. We'd argue that all recent studies, and until recently no one cared about the rate of autism in adults, show there hasn't been an great increase. So be interesting to know your view, taking into account that there hasn't been an increase in autism - but just an increase in awareness and diagnosis, on how that affects the perspective on vaccination - 
http://www.ic.nhs.uk/news-and-events/press-office/press-releases/one-in-a-hundred-adults-have-an-autism-spectrum-disorder-says-pioneering-new-study 

As to the DSM-V, I'd take a look at some of the discussions here and avoid making too many assumptions in advance. It's mainly about the view that dividing autism into 'asperger' 'low/high-functioning', etc, just medically fails to understand how complex the condition can be for individuals. No one knows if this will happen but I think it's unfair to feel the years of work by many people in the field leading to the possible decision is somehow simply for convinence or crossing the t's and dotting the i's

But it's all interesting reading. Often it's interesting the way all sides of an arguement can be convincing despite all contradicting each other. So it's worth avoiding restricting reading to viewpoints that only reinforce assumptions - which is really more faith than fact.

Hey Jim,

Thanks for your thoughts and links. My reasons for wanting this debate are simple. I want to reduce the rates of 'autism'. If that sounds like I want to remove from the gene pool the qualities that naturally make up Aspis, it isn't what I mean. The argument over a 'perfect foetus' and 'perfect child' is a completely different argument which I don't think applies to what we're talking about here.

I've just glanced at the Socieity's thoughts and will respond when I've got time. I take on board completely the need for tact, understanding, compassion all of which if you met me on the street you'd see in droves. The interface by which we have this discussion is the problem.

Later,

Al

Hi Longman,

'I'm more concerned about altruistica's pronouncements about the difference between autism and aspergers'.

I got this idea from a talk by Ros Blackburn about seven years ago. She maintained that a person with autism (by which I understand her to mean Kanner's definition) was not in the least bothered about not socialising with people. The person with Asperger's often wanted to socialise with people but didn't have the social tools to enable this. They would make social gaffs, have little empathy, talked over the person rather than listening and responding etc. It's very interesting that one respondent remarked that the term 'Asperger's' is going to be replaced by 'mild autism', thereby removing the distinction with a simple dotting of the 'i's. 

'This is a sensitive area, and needs to show understanding of others (altruism)'.

Could you explain why this is sensitive as I don't understand what you mean?

'But it is interesting how some people diagnosed with aspergers are eager to dissociate from anyone who has achieved as if aspergers precluides being successful. I don't see that the distinction of when learning shows up is sufficient to argue an entire separation of the two'.

Again, I'm unsure as to what you mean.

The idea of 'the spectrum' for me now, is a fabrication. It's a very clever smokescreen to hide the inescapeable truth. Vaccinations have increased. Autism has increased. Vaccinations are no 'superfix' that has occured in late 20th century medicine. American doctors at the beginning of the century (1900's onwards) were supplying evidence of their flawed science. 

www.4shared.com/.../horrors_of_vaccination_exposed.html

Let me just state my position clearly on this. This will add ammunition for readers who already think I'm dillusional for thinking that the rise in autism is associated with the increased vaccination schedule but bear with me. Most people think the collapse of the Twin Towers of 911 were caused by planes flying into the buildings and the subsequent fires weakening the steel to such an extent that they fell within their footprint at freefall velocity. Such a thing is impossible. It's not my opinion as I'm no structural engineer. But the evidence put before any reasonably open-minded person can deliver no other cause for the Towers to collapse other than controlled demolition.

video.google.com/videoplay

You do have to read the papers and watch the evidence to ascertain whether there is any truth in this. You can't simply listen to George W. Bush or President Obama and accept everything they say is the truth. Why would you?

It's taken me almost ten years (the last ten years of my life) to become interested enough in world politics to research it.

Let me pose another couple of questions that will illustrate this.

Why do we use petroleum products in most of our automobiles?

http://www.permaculture.com/

Why did the American Government introduce Prohibition in 1919 and withdraw the Act in 1934?

Why is the use of cannabis illegal?

www.youtube.com/watch

The search for thse answers leads to some very disturbing answers about how the world works. It also provides clues to how the pharmaceutical industry works and has worked for the last one hundred years.

What has this to do with autism?

Everything I think. The way that organisations work is extremely clever. The reason why I don't read certain papers (after perusing the abstracts) is because often the science is not independent. I'm quite surprised that some readers would think the costs of setting up websites and maintaining them, both the financial and human cost would make someone think that an organisation like Vac Truth or JABS was in it for the money. There are much simpler ways to make money. If you don't accpet what they're saying what about this doctor:

www.ted.com/.../ben_goldacre_battling_bad_science.html

Or this doctor:

web.mac.com/.../

There are literally tons of others if you search around. These are doctors that have done the research, not simply your local GP who says something to the effect, 'The government line is that vaccinations are safe'. Also remember that the training to become a doctor is a serious undertaking, maybe ten years of study or more. I think given the choice between being hounded out of the profession for speaking openly and candidly on a wide range of treatments, or simply toing the line for most doctors, is no choice at all. Doctors are taught the first thing they should do, 'is do no harm'. I also refute the idea that given availability to clean water and an adequate supply of food meant that our ancestral forefathers never lived beyond the age of fifty. Where's the evidence for this? This video points to our mobility well into our sixties and beyond:

www.ted.com/.../christopher_mcdougall_are_we_born_to_run.html 

'Perhaps Altruistica could show some examples of learned evidence for this assertion.' (ie. difference between Aspi / Autistic)

I cannot show evidence for this assertion other than comparing Aspis that I know and Autistic people I know. Their characteristics and deviations from 'the norm' are as different from each other as they are from 'the norm'.

Can I just say at this point, my son is diagnosed as high-fuctioning autistic......whatever that means. He hasn't been seen by a clinician since he was diagnosed aged four and a bit. I love him dearly. He also tells me daily that he loves me, and does things to show that love. He teaches me daily that 'violence is not the answer' and it is a beautiful way of being, contrary to my upbringing where a fist was met with a bigger fist. He cannot see the intracies of relationships, but takes them on a simple, almost  'soul-like' way....as if he knows which souls are honest (good) and which souls are troubled (evil, if you want to use that word).

His ability to weigh up situations is limited for the time being. He has to be reminded fairly often about where he is, the appropriateness of his actions and what they might look like to others. His obsessions with cleanliness fluctuate depending on how stressed he's feeling (probably typical 'control' system reflex). His learning since puberty kicked in, for me has been an eye-opener on how the hormonal interaction between his physical make-up and his learning is linked. 

I could go as any active parent of an ASD kid could. This is the Extreme Love that Louis so aptly mentions. This is the love, the worrying, the wondering about his future that I and most other parents of ASD kids have never had to think about in association with our other kids. This also is something only a parent of an ASD kid can feel, just like Louis's program on dementia. You can have all the empathy in the world for these situations, but until you've made the journey you don't really know what the landscape is like. 

I hope that kind of summarises my intentions with this posting.

Scorpion and Hope.

As Aspis, I totally respect your right to have an opinion. I just want to point out that there is a lot of evidence on the internet now to support the idea that increased rates of 'neurological damage' are primarily down to increased vaccination schedules. Censorship of the internet is a real fear given the Bills that are going through Congress at the moment. If this happens, the information, the other voice that we can access at the moment, will no longer exist. Think about Bradley Manning and Wikileaks. Where are they now?

If readers think I'm comparing apples with pears (if that's the expression), fine. I think only when we have a truly independent system of medical care and research, with proper accountability, auditing and scrutinisation will we be able to authoritavely claim that vaccines present no significant danger to human health.

I think I've just about exhausted my thoughts on the subject. I'll leave you with this link:

www.youtube.com/watch

Al

Altruistica,

You're clearly very eloquent, and, I would surmise, probably consider yourself a well read, and well educated member of the middle classes.

However you appear to display several classic, and sadly all too common, cognitive errors.

Firstly you appear to come with a pre-concieved idea and look at only the evidence that supports that idea. 

Witness: "the abstracts make it easier to ascertain which are worth reading and which are not" - if you were really seeking the truth and not merely support for your preconceived ideas you would not be picking and choosing in this manner - not decideing which are "worth reading" based on some pre-selected criteria of value.

Secondly you use circular reasoning, of the type "the bible must be the word of God, because it says so in the bible" - I won't give quotes here as I'd essentially have to quote everything you wrote, which basically boils down to 'I believe this because I believe this', so I'll move on.

Thirdly, you use flawed logic, and there are several examples of this in what you wrote:

"why would we say the similarities, small as they may be between Asperger's and Autism, point to them being caused by the same trigger?"

Well, for a start that word 'trigger' is very loaded, implying that before some event person X didn't have autism, and then all of a sudden, because of this 'trigger' person X does have autism, or whatever you wish to call it.

However, being a developmental disorder, autism is often not detected in the early months, or years, of a childs life, and in the case of Asperger's, often not diagnosed until well into adulthood - I for example am 39 this year and was diagnosed less than three years ago, I also know of a gentleman that wasn't diagnosed until he was 72!

But, oh, I hear you cry, Asperger's is not the same! Right?! No, wrong. Autism is a spectrum disorder, and just like any spectrum the two ends of it are not identical, but they do share similarities.

Anyway, back to 'triggers', and flawed logic, the flaw in your statement centeres around this word 'trigger', one does not develop autism, one is born with it, there simply is no 'trigger', well, unless you want to consider conception a 'trigger'.

OK, on to the next item of flawed logic:

"I've heard the hypothesis that the increased rates may be down to better detection and it just doesn't wash for this simple reason. I'm almost 50 now, and I know quite a few retired primary school teachers. Their anecdotal evidence is priceless no matter who tells you it's not. When they started their teaching careers, there was no autism in mainstream schools. There were special schools that catered for disabled children. Most teachers that retired in the last five years, report that there was at least one child with a diagnosis of ASD and several others with reduced ailments (ADHD etc)."

There were no autistic children in mainstream school precisely because they got put straight into special schools!

However now, the default position is to put children into mainstream eductation and only to move them out, into special eduction if they're unable to cope, or the mainstream system is unable to cope with the child's needs.

So, of course primary school teachers will see more children with autism now, not because there neccesarily are more children with autism, but rather as a function of the change in the way the education system works!

And then, in you response to Hope you state:

"You say vaccinations protect from awful diseases indeveloping countries. How do you know this? Where is the data to support this? Remember, homo-sapiens have been on this earth for around 100,000 years in an almost identical gene-makeup that we presently have. If we had not acquired a good, strong healthy immune system, we would have gone the way of the Dodo many years ago"

Well, for the vast majority of those 100,000 years you almost certainly wouldn't have reached the grand old age of 50! Life expectancy has, iirc, almost doubled in the short time since the start of the 20th century. Why is that? Could perhaps be something to do with modern standards of hygene, and modern medical technology? I think it might. It certainly has more to do with those things than our 'strong healthy immune system'!

Fourthly misquoting:

"I don't understand why you think my argument against vaccination for measles is laughable?"

I didn't say that I find you argument against vaccination laughable, I said that I find your "how many people died of measles the year before" question laughable.

The question itself is yet another example of your faulty logic - the MMR vaccine was not the first vaccine against measles, it was the first combined Measles, Mumps, and Rubella vaccine, so the question is completely moot.

Fifthly, you misvalue the opinions of self appointed 'experts', namely the founder of the vactruth website, whom you seem to think gets no financial gain from his stated position, however it is notable that the site carries paid ads, and a quick google search will reveal that Jeffry John Aufderheide (the founder of vactruth) certainly gets around doing interviews, and media appearances, alot, and I find it hard to imagine he can even afford to do that if he wasn't in some way financially rewarded for at least some of those appearences.

Finally, you've repeatedly stated that Asperger's and Autism are somehow very different, however the next version of the American diagnostic criteria purportedly will drop the term Asperger's altogether. Why? Because it will be termed 'Mild Autism'. So even the diagnostic experts consider Asperger's and Autism to be very closely related.

And, you say, in one of your responses to Hope "Start trying to think Asperger's has nothing to do with a child still being in nappies at age ten, or unable to speak age fifteen, or being cared for for the rest of their lives at age twenty", well, maybe you need to start thinking that Asperger's is just a milder form of the condition that causes a child still being in nappies at age ten, or unable to speak age fifteen, or being cared for for the rest of their lives at age twenty!

Just as you yourself state, health and wellbeing is not often a case of black and white, either or, conditions, and, as I've already stated Autism is a spectrum condition, there are those unfortunate enough to be at the end that you describe, those of us fortunate enough to be at the Asperger's end, and many that lie somewhere in between.

You may, as I said right back at the beginning of this post, be eloquent, well read, and relatively well educated, but that does not make your misguided opinion fact!

I am trying to answer your points, and I don't wish to offend, but I think you have misunderstood me. We each have the right to an opinion, although I really cannot agree with you. My logic is based on reason - I don't need to read all the Science stuff, suffice it to say that the evidence is pretty self-explanatory. All through my school days, no-one at my school or nursery got measles. My mum had it and so did others in her generation, but she was not vaccinated. Vaccination works.

I lead an active life - I am 24 years old. I get out and about every day, am near people who are ill, but rarely get ill myself. I guess I have a strong immune system thanks to good luck, not smoking, eating good  food, and plenty of exercise. I have always been physically robust, never had a day off school. Just very lucky, but I still need vaccination, we all do.  Also, it is not just about ourselves but about vulnerable members of the community who could get very sick if they catch measles, say. Should we let them die? They deserve to live, don't they? Anyway, even healthy people like myself could get very ill from measles or polio, so why risk it? It is rational to get vaccinated, unless there are very good grounds not to, such as if you are allergic to one of the vaccine ingredients. For most of us, this is not the case.

I am not in paid employment, but volunteer on the till in a busy shop, attend social groups, am around people every day. I am hardly a recluse

Also, don't believe everything you read. Think for yourself. The facts are lived.

And I agree with Longman's point about causality. We don't fully KNOW what causes Autism, but this does not stop one from thinking about probabilities using reason and logic.

Vaccination is based on herd immunity. If a few people fail to respond to vaccination, they would be protected by other peoples' immunity. But if only a few people are vaccinated, they would be at risk. Not vaccinating is not an individual choice in the order of avoiding certain foods, it is a social choice which effects other people.

And I know what diseases vaccines protect from. Vaccines are not always effective, but they are effective enough of the time to dramatically reduce the infection rate.

I'd have to agree with Longman here Al, this is a very sensitive issue and something that makes for a very valid discussion. However please try to avoid slipping into defining what someone may or may not add to a discussion of such huge emotional impact for people involved. 

Assuming a lack of knowledge on the part of another, or slipping into presenting personal viewpoints as something absolute isn't often a path that leads to particularly productive discussion. That does include very personal judgements on what an individual would consider Asperger/autism - especially given the ongoing discussions across the world that are in fact moving those terms much, much closer together.

And it's an entirely different issue and one that doesn't really help here, but to assert that something is correct because someone believes it - so because websites say vaccinations may cause autism means it must be so. Well that's really a leap that probably isn't helpful. Equally, stating there is no 'industry' behind anti-vaccination movements simply isn't true, although clearly that's on a very, very different scale to the medical industry. I know you're talking about parents in particular Al but I think the way you're phrasing that seems too encompassing.

One quick google search for books, conferences, websites with paid advertising, dvds, speaking events or anything similar absolutely demonstrates that there is some financial renumeration for some involved in presenting that perspective. I'm not in anyway saying that's the sole goal of those involved, at all, but to claim it doesn't exist at all is something I don't think bears examination, so is best to avoid.

Oh and did look and fail to find our article on causes early - my mistake was pointed out by one of our lovely webeditors - so here it is for people to read

Here's the NAS position, as it currently stands on causes -
http://www.autism.org.uk/News-and-events/Media-Centre/Position-statements/Causes-of-autism.aspx 

Our statement in response to MMR discussions -
http://www.autism.org.uk/News-and-events/Media-Centre/Position-statements/MMR-vaccine-and-autism.aspx 

And a paper on our website about the genetics of autism -
http://www.autism.org.uk/Working-with/Health/Screening-and-diagnosis/The-genetics-of-autism-spectrum-disorders.aspx 

So hope that helps to broaden this discussion. Hope this doesn't look too negative Al, just want to make sure, with all the pitfalls and possible upset this discussion could lead into that we have a framework that leads to a discussion everyone can enjoy and engage with. :) 

Given all the debates on causality it is possible, by following just one thread, to be convinced you have all the answers. But there are other factors. It is diffucult to find a text that isn't putting one explanation or another too forcibly, but I find Richard Lathe's "Autism, Brain, and Environment" Jessica Kingsley Publishers 2006 is helpful. Lathe p 114 points out that in Japan where they withdrew the triple MMR vaccine they still found a continuing rise in autism.

I'm more concerned about altruistica's pronouncements about the difference between autism and aspergers. This is a sensitive area, and needs to show understanding of others (altruism). But it is interesting how some people diagnosed with aspergers are eager to dissociate from anyone who has achieved as if aspergers precluides being successful. I don't see that the distinction of when learning shows up is sufficient to argue an entire separation of the two. Perhaps Altruistica could show some examples of learned evidence for this assertion.

Hope,

Can I ask how old are you?

You say you very raraely get ill from colds etc. Do you mix with lots of people or do you spend lots of time in the house?

Do you work?

Student?

You see, vaccinations are there to stop specific diseases, not colds and flu (except specific flu vaccines, which again do not work....I can point you to the data if you want).

Would I be correct in thinking that you've never read a scientific paper or visited sites such as this:

vactruth.com/.../

If so, why do you think the author of that site spends so much time maintaining the site and why others such as myself spend so much time trying to spread the information? Honestly I've got tons of other things I could be doing right now. There is no financial gain whatsoever for parents such as us to be doing this. Counter that against a pharmaceutical industry that is worth trillions of dollars.

Try to make statements that you can't support.

We don't know that Asperger's and 'neurologically damaged autism' have anything genetically in common....they sure as hell don't share symptoms.

Start trying to think Asperger's has nothing to do with a child still being in nappies at age ten, or unable to speak age fifteen, or being cared for for the rest of their lives at age twenty.

Also, if vaccines produce antibodies so you are immune to a disease, then why should you get that disease if it's in the community? I will never get measles because I've already had it. Please try to answer the specific points or at least think about them.

Cheers,

Al

Anecdotes are problematic, but since we are relating experiences I would just like to say that I am fully vaccinated and am very healthy. I never get ill, literally. People get bugs and colds that I never catch, and when I occasionally do succomb (last time I was ill was 5 years ago), I get a very mild complaint. I have no allergies or food intolerances. My Dad has asthma and received hardly any vaccinations, but touch-wood, neither me nor my brother have any allergies - and we are FULLY vaccinated. So either you must think of me as a weird discrepancy or  be surprised, based on your interpretation.

I am diagnosed with aspergers, which I agree is very different to the autism you describe, but we know that autism and asperger are highly likely to be genetically related.

Also, I am very critical of everything I read, and am aware that vaccines are not foolproof and can, in rare cases, kill or maim. But this has to be weighed up against the risk of severe illness from serious diseases.

Autism/asperger has always existed. Asperger has appeared in mainstream schools before it was diagnosable, it is just that no-one had a label for these 'difficult' children.

Diet: I agree, good food is important, but cannot cure ASC. I eat very healthily but am not on any diet, but each to their own. The most important issue is that vaccination is a public health concern, a product of civilization and socially progressive thinking. I am glad to be alive now and not in the dark ages. Thankfully, most people still vaccinate their children, but the more people who don't, the greater the risk for all of us..

Hi Susie,

I'm really glad you're getting help early. I know when Tom began to speak, lots of misunderstandings could be ironed out, although even at fourteen and attending mainstream school, he can make mistakes such as the other day when he asked,

'Did you went to the shops?', followed by 'Did you bought some Cheerios?'. After quizzing him about these and explaining we use the present tense he got it right the second time.

Tom has learned his mother tongue in much the same way as we learn a foreign language. There was very little 'osmosis' of the culture he was in. He speaks with a quasi American accent and some of the vocabulary is American, although since puberty we have seen a massive shift in his perspective. The shutters are slowly opening and he's even talking about wanting to make friends. From the dark, dark days that we saw the couple in Louis's film exhibit and which I know only too well, I can now see a life for him which is independent, which involves him maintaining a relationship with the opposite sex, maybe grand-children and hopefully meaningful work.

In reply to both Scorpion and Hope, he has taught me things and also spurred me on to investigate things I probably never would have had he not come into our lives. If I'm honest, I wouldn't take away the 'autism' (difference) because I don't know where that really starts and where it ends, BUT and it is a BIG BUT.

Knowing what I know now, I am highly skeptical of the whole medical profession. Not the individual doctors and nurses who enter the profession with the greatest of intentions, but the lobbyists, the Big Pharma, the research scientists who put their names to work that they know in the deepest regions of their own hearts, are bogus. These are the puppeteers who own the system.

I am a musician and music teacher. So is my wife. I teach Tom piano (I forced the clarinet on him during Year 6 -7 to help with motor skills) and his memory and natural musicianship are things I wish I would have had. He still sees music lessons in the same vein as other school work, but he's doing GCSE music (his one and only GCSE) next year so my hope is that at some point, he begins to enjoy it as I do. I teach a few other kids who have either autism or related development syndromes, and what they all share is a much better than average sense of pitch and rhythm....it's like it's built into their DNA. See here for an advocate of music-making from an early age:

www.youtube.com/watch

I've only recently found out about this guy but I'm going to research his ideas more as it's something I may be able to contribute to.

Al

Hi Hope,

I would be interested to know what your full diagnosis is (if that's something you want to share). The reason I ask is because if you think about it logically, with the numbers of people who have been diagnosed over the last twenty years, there must have been mis-diagnosis. I know in my son's case, we have met some very able professionals over the years, but also a fair share of clueless individuals too. I am not questioning your diagnosius by the way, merely that, as I explained to Scorpion I no longer believe all these syndromes for want of a better word, are the same. I think that's why we're seeing such a spread of abilities and disabilities.

Also when you say the evidence is very, very clear about the safety of vaccinations, why does the USA have courts set up to deal specifically with vaccine-damaged claimants? If you think about it, it's totally illogical to accept that vaccines could be safe for almost everyone, but say 1 in 50,000 might suddenly have an adverse reaction and regretfully die. Are we to believe that vaccines are so black and white? That there is no 'grey' area? It just doesn't make any sense. We don't consider 'risk' in relation to our health in this way do we? We don't say 'If you smoke, you will die of lung cancer'....what we say is, 'you will have an increased chance of developing lung cancer'. The two things are entirely different.

You say vaccinations protect from awful diseases indeveloping countries. How do you know this? Where is the data to support this? Remember, homo-sapiens have been on this earth for around 100,000 years in an almost identical gene-makeup that we presently have. If we had not acquired a good, strong healthy immune system, we would have gone the way of the Dodo many years ago.

Have you any thoughts on why we're seeing increased rates, year on year?

Cheers,

Al

Hi Scorpion,

Thanks for the reply.

I think we ought to clarify just what I claimed and what I didn't. The MMR jab is another vaccination that I do think is attributable to the neurological damage we are calling 'autism', whether on its own in some cases, or as part of the vaccination schedule.

I also think that we ought to dispel the myth that has been created that this vaccine damage that for sake of argument we'll call 'autism' has anything to do with Asperger's Syndrome. For me, they're completely and utterly different syndromes. If you think about it for one minute, why would we say the similarities, small as they may be between Asperger's and Autism, point to them being caused by the same trigger? Surely the massive differences displayed by the developing toddlers (Asperger's - early speech, high functioning, no obvious learning disabilities, doesn't suffer fools gladly or children their own age, lack of tactile play: against Autism - no speech or very little until 5 or 6, no grammatical syntax, love of slapstick /rough play, can be very tactile) and I realise they are generalisations, but after 10 years of seeing these things, I don't think they're the same thing.

I think the world has always had Aspi's....they've just never been clinically identified as such until the 1940s. Look at Mozart, Brunel, just about every Professor of Mathematics in every University in the world and you will find Aspi's. 

I've heard the hypothesis that the increased rates may be down to better detection and it just doesn't wash for this simple reason. I'm almost 50 now, and I know quite a few retired primary school teachers. Their anecdotal evidence is priceless no matter who tells you it's not. When they started their teaching careers, there was no autism in mainstream schools. There were special schools that catered for disabled children. Most teachers that retired in the last five years, report that there was at least one child with a diagnosis of ASD and several others with reduced ailments (ADHD etc).

I don't understand why you think my argument against vaccination for measles is laughable? I had measles as a child, as did my other three siblings. None of us developed any complications, but what we did acquire was a lifetime's immunity against natural measles, something you'll find that vaccinated children /young adults may not have acquired even through two shots of MMR. All this is fact.

I accept that you may think my views are offensive because we are not talking about the same thing. Asperger's is a different way of being which I totally accept. What I don't accept is rigged science all in the name of herd immunisation, which is what we have at the moment, resulting in the disgraceful attitude that herd immunisation is desirable at any cost. As an aside, I have two friends (both in their early fifties) who are Aspi's. I accept them for who they are, but they are poles apart from some of the children and young adults that we saw in Louis's film. I do urge you to do your own research. Do not take on trust whatever anyone says to you just because of who they are. There are recent papers in this site's own database that will confirm there are numerous research scientists that think the most likely reasons for the increase in autism (read 'neurologically damaged') is the vaccination schedule.

Al

Hey Jim,

Thanks for that. I didn't realise you had to enter search entires before any papers would come up. It seems you have quite an extensive library there. I've read a good many of those papers and the abstracts make it easier to ascertain which are worth reading and which are not. I'll definitely use this. Is it possible to download the papers or is it merely a 'to printer' service?

Thanks Al

I feel that there are far too many vaccinations given today, for example why give chicken pox we all had it as kids and it never did us any harm. Kids are always sick today with coughs and colds they are not allowed to build up their own immunity anymore but as for causing autism I dont know.

 I felt there was something different about my son from almost the time he was born. He had terrible feeding problems late milestones and this was all before his MMR vaccination. When he had his vaccination he had no reaction unlike my younger son who was really ill even ended up in hospital and he is not on the spectrum. However my older son who is now 7 has aspergers, he was almost non verbal till 3 and a half never played with other children and didnt make eye contact.

It is one of those mysteries that needs a lot more work done on it I have no doubt in my mind that my son was born with it and I believe it can be genetic too as his father shows many aspergers traits too. Living in the Mediteranean we have a very good diet, and I do believe diet plays a key role in helping control many of the symptoms of autism. When he has had a couple of days of bad food he can be much more irritable and aggressive and more prone to temper tantrums.

From vaccinations, the air we breathe in and the food we eat our whole environment is much more polluted than it ever has been and in the end it has to affect us somewhere.

Al, I read your post with much interest. My little boy was progressing normally - he was a chunky happy little chap - then he had his MMR. 

Whilst I don't blame this for his condition it was just very apparent to us (and we have viewed videos of before and after just to confirm we weren't imagining it) that he began to regress shortly after.

I'm not the only one to think like this as another mum on my Earlybird Course, noted the same changes in her son too.

Anyway, another change we made that has made a dramatic difference to Jack, is change his diet.

Had somebody told me to do it, I'd have laughed (but tried later anyway). After much reading and research we put Jack on a Gluten and Casein free diet. Within a week, he changed - his eye contact improved and he lost his 'in his own world look'. He's been on the diet for almost a year now and everyone - including his carers at nursery - have commented on how much he has improved and changed since we began the diet.

His speech is improving and he is more sociable. Whereas before the diet he didn't particularly care for being around other children, he now seeks them out for company and  interaction.

We are now massive believers in 'you are what you eat'. The diet was very simple to implement and is getting easier.

If Jack is given gluten by mistake (it's happened), he slips back into his 'own little world' and instead of making eye contact with us, he just looks past us or even, it seems, through us.

I know it won't work for everyone - but it worked for us.

We'll never know the true cause of Autism, and I'm not out to blame anyone or anything - I just want to help my little man live with his condition.

Like, I think, just one of the parents on 'Extreme Love', I don't want to take away Jack's autism - to do so, would be to remove his personality. He's only 4, but he is lovable and fun and is proving to have a fantastic talent for music (he sings better than he talks).

We've got big challenges ahead of us but we'll face them head on and we'll be doing our best for Jack.

Sue

No, MMR is not to blame in my opinion, the evidence is very, very clear. Vaccinations protect from awful diseases that kill and maim both children and adults in many developing countries to this day, although thankfully polio has been almost eradicated. Some people, it is true are allergic to vaccines, but so are people allergic to egg, nuts etc.  Bad reactions to vaccination do happen, but are rare. The risks of complications from measles are not worth contemplating. I am autistic, fully vaccinated, very healthy, and am darn pleased that we have vaccination, for I would not risk one of these horrid diseases and I would not wish it on anyone.

Autism is not a disease, not a sickness, but a developmental difference.