Getting used to a dog

Iain said:

IF you are giving of a fear response then the dog will treat you as a lesser pack member and try to assert dominance over you. This is how the pecking order is established in their world

Iain said:

For effective ownership of a dog you need to be consistent, exhibit alpha energy and behaviour (in order to be seen as an authority figure)

This is now widely recognised as flawed and outdated thinking. This article explains more - including how the researcher on whose work that theory was based later recognised it wasn’t correct:

Beyond the Dog - Debunking the “Alpha Dog” Myth

As a Google AI summary notes, it can have a counterproductive impact on dogs:

“The concept of the "alpha dog" in dog training is based on flawed research and outdated theories about wolf behavior. ... This "alpha" approach can be detrimental, causing fear, anxiety, and even aggression in dogs. Modern, positive reinforcement-based training methods are more effective and build stronger bonds between humans and their dogs.”

Bunny said:

This is now widely recognised as flawed and outdated thinking.

I understand that the current thinking around dog psychology and it still requires the owner to be an authority figure BUT with an understanding of both the dogs body language and their psychology to be an effective owner.

www.dwdogtraining.com/.../

Dogs are social creatures, sure, but their relationships are way more flexible than the old dominance theory suggested. They’re more interested in figuring out what works to get the good stuff (food, toys, attention) than in who’s the boss.

In a household, dogs often establish loose, situational hierarchies that can change depending on the resource in question. 

Understanding how these hierarchies form and manipulating them can mean that a child is not pushed aside by the dog who wants the food the child has - if the dog did this and got away with it in the past then it becomes a learned behaviour.

As the authority figure you need to correct the dog and prevent it doing the same thing again to ensure the child does not get hurt if nothing else.

I'm not advocating cruelty but applied psychology and practical steps.

The hierarchy is very real, just not in the way you probably thought I meant.

So all my original statement remains relevant.

That seems to me like a very disingenuous reply.

Iain said:

The hierarchy is very real, just not in the way you probably thought I meant.

I’m not persuaded that I misinterpreted anything (including about hierarchy) in your original post, which made no mention of positive behaviour training.

Iain said:

In a household, dogs often establish loose, situational hierarchies that can change depending on the resource in question. 

This phrase (which you quoted from the article that you linked to, in support of your claim) relates to discussion of the relationships between dogs in a multi-dog household; it is not written in support of seeking to establish an understanding of hierarchy between a dog and its owner(s).

Your original post, which you say remains relevant, states:

“For effective ownership of a dog you need to be consistent, exhibit alpha energy and behaviour (in order to be seen as an authority figure)”

In contrast, one of the “key takeaways” in the article that you’ve just linked to confirms that:

“Building a relationship based on trust and clear communication is the goal, not establishing yourself as the “alpha.””

Another article from the same site states:

”Modern science has completely debunked the alpha dog and dominance hierarchy theories”

“Positive reinforcement training proves far more effective than dominance-based methods for lasting behavioral change”

Regardless, I’m glad to hear that you’ve now read up on the latest dog training advice, even if you haven’t yet fully changed your thinking.

Iain said:

Is it coincidence that the sites promoting this new approach of woke dog training are all selling courses on how to do it?

For me, your "wokery" comment speaks volumes about your mindset, but I won’t dignify that particular element of your reply with any further response.

Perhaps it might help you to know that other sites and organisations that recommend positive reinforcement training include:

- The Kennel Club: 

“Look on our website for training ideas or explore other sites on the internet. Whatever you find, make sure that the instructor is using kind, motivational methods and positive reinforcement only”

- RSPCA:

“Look for reward-based training methods.”

- The Canine and Feline Sector Group (CFSG), whose members include Battersea, Blue Cross, RSPCA, Dogs Trust, and many more. Their Code of Practice for Dog Breeding includes:

“All training and behaviour therapy should take an ethical approach. It should be positive and reward-based"

"Current scientific knowledge should be applied at all times, and help sought if required. Contact the Animal Behaviour and Training Council (ABTC)”

- Guide Dogs:

Uses positive reinforcement training for its dogs (including Labradors).

- Statutory guidance for local authorities in England:

Promotes positive reinforcement training by dog breeders.

- The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018: 

Mandates using positive reinforcement training when keeping or training animals for exhibition.

- PDSA:

"Firstly, when you’re training your dog or puppy to do anything, you should always use positive, reward-based training. Dogs respond far better to positive training and are more likely to pick up what you are trying to teach them faster."

Iain said:

The old way has proven very successful as it ties into the instincts of dogs. The appropriate application of psychology, boundaries and training used in conjunction with observation of the behaviour exhibited by the dog has been used by most dog trainers through history.

This content from The Ethical Dog Training guide, published by the ABTC  (which sets and oversees standards of professional competence and animal welfare during training and behaviour therapy), refers:

“Until scientific research started to question age old practices, nobody really understood what they were doing wrong or what the potential consequences might be.”

“Sadly some of these methods are still delivered today and their use is defended by some who believe the end justifies the means. Thankfully they are in a dwindling minority”

“Over the last twenty to thirty years scientific research has driven our understanding of animal behaviour, particularly domestic dog behaviour, forward at a phenomenal rate.”

Iain said:

That is very condescending.

It was offered as a positive, forward-looking note to finish on. It reflected my optimism that, having now learned about this newer, science-based approach to dog training, it could benefit any dogs in your life - and that I hadn’t expected your thinking to completely change overnight.

However, you’ve since doubled down on your original view (and even made it worse with your wokery comment), so I no longer feel that way.

I’ll leave you with the additional information above and step away from this thread (ie I won't be returning to it). At the very least, I hope that you will stop promoting outdated dominance theory to others, even if you personally choose to ignore the latest science and best practice when training any other dogs in the future.

Of course you use possitive reinforcement, but you may need to do it more and more rigorously with a breed like a doberman. Nobody wants to break a dogs spirit and if they do then I don't think they should have a dog.

Is it coincidence that the sites promoting this new approach of woke dog training are all selling courses on how to do it?

The old way has proven very successful as it ties into the instincts of dogs. The appropriate application of psychology, boundaries and training used in conjunction with observation of the behaviour exhibited by the dog has been used by most dog trainers through history.

I freely admit I don't know everything about dog training but have owned and trained 4 dogs in my life (a spaniel and 3 labradors) and have achieved good results with dogs that showed no signs of distress or unhappiness.

Managing the early years "teenager" was always a challenge, especially with uncut male dogs but the traditional techniques resulted in very well behaved an sociable adult dogs.

Bunny said:

I’m glad to hear that you’ve now read up on the latest dog training advice, even if you haven’t yet fully changed your thinking

That is very condescending.

Is it coincidence that the sites promoting this new approach of woke dog training are all selling courses on how to do it?

The old way has proven very successful as it ties into the instincts of dogs. The appropriate application of psychology, boundaries and training used in conjunction with observation of the behaviour exhibited by the dog has been used by most dog trainers through history.

I freely admit I don't know everything about dog training but have owned and trained 4 dogs in my life (a spaniel and 3 labradors) and have achieved good results with dogs that showed no signs of distress or unhappiness.

Managing the early years "teenager" was always a challenge, especially with uncut male dogs but the traditional techniques resulted in very well behaved an sociable adult dogs.

Bunny said:

I’m glad to hear that you’ve now read up on the latest dog training advice, even if you haven’t yet fully changed your thinking

That is very condescending.

Iain said:

Is it coincidence that the sites promoting this new approach of woke dog training are all selling courses on how to do it?

For me, your "wokery" comment speaks volumes about your mindset, but I won’t dignify that particular element of your reply with any further response.

Perhaps it might help you to know that other sites and organisations that recommend positive reinforcement training include:

- The Kennel Club: 

“Look on our website for training ideas or explore other sites on the internet. Whatever you find, make sure that the instructor is using kind, motivational methods and positive reinforcement only”

- RSPCA:

“Look for reward-based training methods.”

- The Canine and Feline Sector Group (CFSG), whose members include Battersea, Blue Cross, RSPCA, Dogs Trust, and many more. Their Code of Practice for Dog Breeding includes:

“All training and behaviour therapy should take an ethical approach. It should be positive and reward-based"

"Current scientific knowledge should be applied at all times, and help sought if required. Contact the Animal Behaviour and Training Council (ABTC)”

- Guide Dogs:

Uses positive reinforcement training for its dogs (including Labradors).

- Statutory guidance for local authorities in England:

Promotes positive reinforcement training by dog breeders.

- The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018: 

Mandates using positive reinforcement training when keeping or training animals for exhibition.

- PDSA:

"Firstly, when you’re training your dog or puppy to do anything, you should always use positive, reward-based training. Dogs respond far better to positive training and are more likely to pick up what you are trying to teach them faster."

Iain said:

The old way has proven very successful as it ties into the instincts of dogs. The appropriate application of psychology, boundaries and training used in conjunction with observation of the behaviour exhibited by the dog has been used by most dog trainers through history.

This content from The Ethical Dog Training guide, published by the ABTC  (which sets and oversees standards of professional competence and animal welfare during training and behaviour therapy), refers:

“Until scientific research started to question age old practices, nobody really understood what they were doing wrong or what the potential consequences might be.”

“Sadly some of these methods are still delivered today and their use is defended by some who believe the end justifies the means. Thankfully they are in a dwindling minority”

“Over the last twenty to thirty years scientific research has driven our understanding of animal behaviour, particularly domestic dog behaviour, forward at a phenomenal rate.”

Iain said:

That is very condescending.

It was offered as a positive, forward-looking note to finish on. It reflected my optimism that, having now learned about this newer, science-based approach to dog training, it could benefit any dogs in your life - and that I hadn’t expected your thinking to completely change overnight.

However, you’ve since doubled down on your original view (and even made it worse with your wokery comment), so I no longer feel that way.

I’ll leave you with the additional information above and step away from this thread (ie I won't be returning to it). At the very least, I hope that you will stop promoting outdated dominance theory to others, even if you personally choose to ignore the latest science and best practice when training any other dogs in the future.