Published on 12, July, 2020
Also prompted by some of the nicer and more innocent posters asking "why?" both in public and also by P.M.
And yes, also hoping that by exploring this issue we can find a way of understanding and managing these issues, and making the forum work better for all, both old and young, Woke or based male or female, traditional or progressive etc..
I've mentioned it before, and it bears repeating: I have NEVER had as much "trouble" on the internet as I have had here, and I've been to some pretty contentious places, let me tell you!
I suggest, and would like help in the form of disagreement or agreement, that this is a facet of Autism.
In plain english, Autism leads us to have bad days where we see argument or opposition where none actually exists.
We have have had that in a previous encounter with that person and situation, and the "once bitten twice shy" situation then immediatly seems to kick in HARD.
That is my own personal expererience, and after discussing it at some length with my Sprog, who now actually works in MH and is ND we believe this is an artifact of the well known Auitistic "pattern recoognition" SUPERIORITY over the NT masses.
Yellow Tree however, specifically mentioned two issues that prompted his departure, and whilst it would be easy (and possibly correct) to see those as his personal issues and none of my business, he specifcially mentioned his own "Woke" beliefs and "60 year old members of this site" as being an issue for him, which does make it my business, FI I am concerned about "ageism" (which I have been since I was about 12 years old and started doing sponsoered walks for "help the aged" etc.) and also because his break with the community was seemingly triggered by a post I made.
A post which I made at the time with my heart singing with joy, as it seemed Yellow Tree had expressed a concept I'm trying to sell very hard these days "Reject the sin but not the sinner".
What then seemed to happen, is that YT (I hope the obvious abbreviation is O.K.) Read my post, saw an entirely different attitude being expressed to what I was holding, and went with that. My attempt to explain my self only seemed to make matters worse.
It became obvious to me before Debbie articulated it, (correctly) that if I merely shut up and stop participating, less people would be motivated to leave this site.
A less drastic position would seem to be, If I were to simply "modify my conduct better in order to fit in", but for some reason, (perhaps described in teh cenrtal word of this websites banner) that course of action seems to be harder than just walking away, or perhaps just retreating to the echo chamber of my inbox?
Over to to you guys, but one more thing:
JUST here, just now, in this thread only please obey this rule: As soon as you feel inclined to write a passionate post from the hip, do it by all means, but make sure you keep it safe adn ready to post, but sleep on it (literally) before htting send.
I think this is a serious and diffciult enough topic that it will take a day or two before the community works out a way that we can stem the flow of otherwise rational and valuable posters form this site. So there isn't a race to post before obscurity sets in. I'll bump it myself at least over the weekend if replies are sparse.
I have asked for a second opinion both from the wiser members of this site, and also the admins on occasion, (for about two years now), as to whether I make a net positive contribution to the site, because in addition to the guilt I feel when anyone takes violent objection to something I said then appears to "strop off, comlaing bitterly" I also get periods where I get sick of the conversation and want to leave for my own personal reasons. There is an element of addiction to this stuff, that if I'm doing no good, I ought to be working harder to break.
I created a "safe space" thread instead where I can go and share the most innocent and non-controversial of human activities, looking at each others pussycats. (I wonder if that word will make it past the filter?) Everyone copes in different ways, but maybe as a community we can make ourselves stronger somehow if we talk more about this weakness we seem to suffer from?
Maybe a brave MOD or even one of the usually quite reticient but wiser members of the forum might be able to help lead us towards a better way of conducting ourselves?
I've discussed this very issue with others on here over the last couple of weeks, since I unintentionally upset another poster who subsequently left, and I have to admit there were aspects of the YellowTree threads that made me want to scream, but I quickly deleted my only response.
So my position on this is that while we have autism in common, we are all still different people with different opinions, likes, dislikes and life experiences so of course we will have disagreements. That is part and parcel of any forum where human beings talk to each other.
Unfortunately I think autism, and other comorbid conditions, make some people here very sensitive to any kind of disagreement.
My response to this over the last fortnight is to withdraw somewhat, because I don't want to upset anyone and certainly not enough to make them leave this forum. But you know what? I have every bit as much right to express or hold opinions as the other people do.
YT's last comment about woke and 60+ forum members was perhaps the last straw for me - complete hypocrisy and double standards on his part.
So maybe we should all freely - but politely - express our views. If other people don't like them they can freely - but politely - present a counter argument or they can just choose to ignore and not engage.
But I'm fed up with self censorship.
Amerantin (former member) said:But I'm fed up with self censorship.
Reply to myself here, but just thinking about more about this last line: self-censorship is what I've been doing all my life, as most autistic people have. I didn't come here for more of the same!
TheCatWoman said:I wonder how many people actually know what woke means and its origins?
I had to look this one up to be certain, but it is an evolving term without a fixed definition:
From Wikipedia:
Woke is a political slang adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English originally meaning alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights. Woke has also been used as shorthand for some ideas of the American Left involving identity politics and social justice, such as white privilege and reparations for slavery in the United States.
I think the context it was used in on the thread in question was in the social justice one, so seems bang on the money.
TheCatWoman said:So the choice then becomes do I leave what I see as slurs, opinions that I disagree with etc unchallenged?
I get this - there are so many threads where I have found myself responding to something I saw as wrong, naive, incomplete or pointless and I always take a long pause before pressing the Reply button as a lot of the time it adds nothing constructive or helpful to the thread.
What we see in this forum seems to reflect what is going on in the world at large - there is an ever more intoletant, polarising and tribal mentality forming with flame wars becoming the norm.
While there are people involved I don't think this is ever likely to change mind you, is seems like human nature.
Good post.
(TBF there are a lot of good posts in this thread, it's possibly unfair to single one out, but that was my knee jerk reaction..)
I'm just sticking this in here as there are a number of points I wish to make inspired by many posters so none of this is particularly directed at anyone.
Being someone who has been accused of being woke, a snowflake, a guardian reading leftie and much much worse, certain things act as a trigger, they tell me that the person posting is going to be generally hostile to people like me and my beliefs and that the thread is not going to be a safe place for me to be in. So the choice then becomes do I leave what I see as slurs, opinions that I disagree with etc unchallenged? The easy answer is yes, don't go there run away and hide, find some other similar people to make a bubble with, but arn't these social and political bubbles a big part of the problem? I make no applogy that many of my opinions are "woke", I wonder how many people actually know what woke means and its origins? I expect a certain amount of kickback to this, what I don't expect is abuse, sadly this is the case in many situations. It make me mentally "fort up" when replying to such posts, I know that I have to be extrememly careful or risk a pile on, threats and other nastiness.
Many people don't know how to state a case for the things they believe in, they expect everybody to leave them alone and agree with them and get angry when challenged, even mildly and start hitting out. They shout, they repeat their opinion over and over again never asking a question only repeating their original point with added volume and abuse, repitition and volume dosen't make you more right, it dilutes the point you're trying to make as people stop seeing the opinion and only see the abuse. Unsurprisingly many fight back and the whole situation becomes fraught and many people back away, either because they don't want to be involved, they're afraid of attracting the attention of people who quite frankly are bullies. Others will pile in on the side of the person they like the best and a create a gang, the points raised in the original post become lost in ever escalating hyperbole and yet more accusations and abuse.
Another thing about written conversation is that we can't see the other persons face and expressions, I know as a group we're not always the best at reading faces, but many of us can get an idea of whether a comment is meant as humour, a wind up or a provocation and can respond accordingly.
I don't like agism, I object to agism, probably because I dont' get on with a lot of people my age and prefer the company of younger people who's values and tastes I often find more aligned to mine. I dont' think it natural for people to be divided into age groups and not allowed out except in certain circumstances and roles.
One final point, many people seem not only to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, but have got hold of one from an entirely different tree and don't want to admit it and everybody ends up confused and cross.
Amerantin (former member) said:self-censorship is what I've been doing all my life, as most autistic people have. I didn't come here for more of the same!
Wise words.
Be your authentic self and just obey the forum rules.
There will always be someone offended and often who will try to cancel you, but that is very much the nature of society now. If we don't contribute for fear of offending others for a valid opinion then our voices are silenced
Please stay just the way you are..
I think that encountering challenging or even hostile viewpoints can have two main outcomes, either one folds and cries foul, or one fights back with cogent ripostes and a discussion or an argument ensues. I do not think that anyone can be blamed for not intuiting that the person that is being interacted with is a 'folder' and not capable of holding their own..