[Content warning: discussion of rape and sexual assault] –Russel Brand, GUILTY

Well, women, like men, have a brain, hands and a s*x drive. I fail to see how what lies between their legs makes any difference

The only factors I can see making a real difference is that men are more often physically more imposing and could use that to take advantage, but that's it.

Thank you!!

Agree with profdanger. I'm glad you feel able to share that here. There must be so many other people who have had similarly awful experiences and are never able to tell anyone, let alone report it to the police.

Marianne72 said:

I'll come out now myself: I was sexually assaultedd 4 times in my life

Marianne, I understand that even with anonymity that is not an easy thing to disclose. I appreciate and respect your openness. I am so sorry that not only has that happened to you, but you had to experience such abuse on multiple occasions. That is awful and I am glad to hear that in spite of the actions of others you have gained confidence since then. I wish you the best moving forward.

Absolutely. Some of Brand's behaviour after his rape and assaults was said to be an attempt to normalise what had happened. He would leave his phone number or email and he would get back in touch asking to meet again etc. His defence suggested that this was an odd thing for him to do if he had just raped someone but it cast doubt in the minds of the survivors about what had happened.

I also suspect that he didn't really feel like he was doing much wrong. He was rich and famous and was likely also having a lot of consensual sex (I know that term is problematic but it seems useful here) so probably felt that if a few women weren't consenting, he was perfectly within his rights to carry on regardless.

I'm very glad you posted this, TheCatWoman  - I've only just seen this thread. It's not only about this horrible man, but the fact BBC, Channel 4 and other 'reputable' organisations ignored or brushed off similar behaviour - this is by far not the first time. There is defnitely a culture of denial and closing ranks about vile misbehaviours among people considered sacred cows or bulls [ie by dint of wealth, fame, power etc]. It will take a long time as it needs cultural and organisational changes. 

I'll come out now myself: I was sexually assaultedd 4 times in my life - twice as a child, twice as an adult, the last one a rape. I didn't tell anyone because I thought no one would believe me and it felt shaming. I felt, for the first 3, it was to do with me, but the last was my ex. whom I divorced - he got divorced 3 times over several years, hitting his wives. I tried many times to tell someone over the decades, but as there was no 'evidence' it seemed futile. Over time the shame turned to anger, which drove me to self develop and gain confidence. Every time I hear news about people like Brand it makes me feel sick and angry for the women. I am so glad they were brave and came forward, far from an easy thing to do.

LateToTheAlphaQuadrant said:

I specificaly asked you because of it happening in your side of the pond.

Lol I totally understood that as being the reason. I‘m happy to represent our side!

LateToTheAlphaQuadrant said:

I wasn't aware of the Halloween party situation

Yeah it’s pretty weird. The big revelation the week I looked into it was that a ton of text messages from the victim and defense were dumped into the public’s eye, so the people I listened to were scrutinizing the order in which the most incriminating texts were made by either side.

In addition to scolding one of the guys for not inviting her to that party just before her accusations came about, she also had a lengthy discussion about a week after the incident with one of the guys where she essentially told him - if I remember correctly - that she enjoyed her time with him, but was unsure about the group sex part. I’m not as weirded out by that exchange, but I could see the defense attempting to use that to suggest she gave consent and never actually revoked it. I think the use of drugs kind of defeats the purpose of that argument, but it is interesting nonetheless.

I just fact checked myself because I thought she got an STD from the incident - which would definitely be a reason to retaliate against the house even if she consented to all of it - but it turns out my memory was mistaken. She got a UTI afterwards and thought it was an STD. I guess that goes to show that you should take all of my opinions/statements about the case with a grain of salt. Fact check all my info.

LateToTheAlphaQuadrant said:

I don't think women can legaly rape men?

That's incorrect. There is also domestic abuse by females. I suspect this is not often reported out of embarrassment.

McFrost said:

we all now fully understand why that happens: shame, fear, the doubt that you will be believed etc

Not to mention - as with the Cornell case - shock is often a factor. I mean, you can never expect to be treated in such a way, particularly if it was someone you trusted or even found attractive, so it is only natural that our minds take time to accept the reality that consent was never actually given.

You're very welcome. And thank you for your response. I specificaly asked you because of it happening in your side of the pond. I wasn't aware of the Halloween party situation but agree, the 'free piece of meat' was beyond appauling. Thanks again.

LateToTheAlphaQuadrant said:

Hey Profdanger, wise words.

I actually really appreciate you saying that. Thank you. I don’t feel like an expert on the topic at all so that makes me feel much better lol.

LateToTheAlphaQuadrant said:

Cornell University gang rape case? 

Hoo boy is that a hot topic here in America. I’ve tried to avoid studying it - as I believe it is merely a distraction from important political events happening at the moment - but I’ll admit I listened to a breakdown of the situation about two weeks ago. Thus my perspective may be a bit out of date.

I have mixed feelings. Yes, I totally understand the prosecution’s claim that her lack of response to the situation in the weeks following was due to shock - I probably wouldn’t have thought to get a rape test done in that situation if I were her, either - but at the same time there were some things that happened afterwards that do support the defense’s claim that her accusations were primarily retaliatory and spiteful. Namely, she was denied an invitation to a Halloween party soon after and that obviously upset her, so there is a chance she weaponized what happened to get back at them.

However, the group text message where one of the guys essentially advertised her as a free piece of meat for the rest of the perpetrators was absolutely disgusting. That guy in particular deserves immense justice to be dealt to him. I feel like some of the guys that participated in the crime could potentially make a claim that they were misled to believe that he was insinuating they were given consent from her with that message. Not that I think they are completely innocent, but I do think the blame is lopsided here.

Again, there’s probably been a lot of revelations since I last read up on it, so I could have a very outdated perspective lol

I was a young man in the late 90's and early 2000's and was aware of the kind of laddish anything goes attitude when it came to women. It's far from perfect now but when I think back to how it was then, I shudder at how horrible it was. I was never aware of anyone sexually assaulting or raping someone but the way women were talked about among groups of young men was awful. It made me uncomfortable but I am afraid to say I never spoke up about it, and probably said some things that I would now be ashamed of, all in the name of fitting in.

It's good that people like Brand are now being made to pay for their past actions and I hope it gives confidence to other women with similar stories to those who bravely testified against him, to come forward. I have been listening to The Times' daily podcast on the trial though, and some of the questioning from the defence was astonishingly outdated in tone. Using the length of time between the rape or assault and reporting it, in order to throw doubt on the testimony. As far as I knew, we all now fully understand why that happens: shame, fear, the doubt that you will be believed etc: all spoken about at length and understood, yet still seen as a legitimate line of questioning. The same with questions about why they didn't scream, or fight back, or run away. It blew my mind that his defence thought these sorts of questions were either appropriate or going to aid him in any way.

Everything he was accused of is sickening but I was particularly relieved that he was convicted of that one count of rape, as it was just an utterly appalling thing that he did to that young lady. He deserves a very long custodial sentence and it looks like he will get one, with more charges to come it would seem. They were right to not bail him as it would have been completely unsurprising if he had absconded.

Hey Profdanger, wise words. What do you think of the case of https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5wyzrm0n74ro

Cornell University gang rape case? 

I understand your interest in reactions to this from a male versus female perspective on this topic, but I’m not so certain that’s why there is a trend in responses from men on this thread in particular. It could even just be as simple as we have less women that are reading the threads today than usual.

I think - given some of the other threads I’ve participated in - it’s probably a little obvious why I’m here. I’m a critic of how sex education is approached or outright denied to teens. Young men should be exposed to stories like this to understand fully that consent is always important. Autistic young men in particular, who may not fully comprehend the concept.

I mean, take Christine Chandler (Chris-Chan) as an example. Back when she was an Autistic male teen, she/he had a wildly perverse and well-documented obsession with sex, which was fueled solely by misconceptions fed to her/him by internet trolls rather than a formal education. Even after her gender change, it still led her down the road towards eventually raping her own mother with dementia (since she could not effectively give consent). I think had she heard of horror stories like the Brand situation and received proper counseling rather than having trolls feed into her having a warped view of sex, that particular crime could have been prevented.

That’s not to say that Brand wouldn’t have done what he did if sex education were improved. It probably wouldn’t have influenced him in particular, honestly. He knew what he was doing was dreadful and kept going back to it because he thought he could get away with it. I know improvements to sex education will not fix everything, but I believe the likelihood of misunderstanding being a factor in crimes like these would be less.

I haven't commented because I have little to add. However, as you've prompted me... back in the late 60s, the first women's refuge was opened close to where I lived. I read Erin Pizzy's book about the work and supported it. Years later, I gave to my local refuge while I lived in that town. I've read many books on domestic abuse and have spoken about it in real life, as well as keeping up on mean murdering their wives and children when said wives gained the courage to leave them, cases of male rape and the various celbrity abusers who have hit the headlines over the years. I've studied paraphilia, rape and abnormal psychology. The Pelicot case was horrendous and I applaud Madame Pelicot for exposing this depravity. 

Fifty years ago, when I was working for the predecessor to the DWP, I encountered an educated woman who married a French film director. He attempted to abuse her on the first night as a married couple. She ran out of the house, was ignored by the police she called (back then, it was regarded as a 'domestic' and none of their business) and never went back. Moving forward 40 years, I was one of a few who supported a young woman suffering abuse for a coupel of years, until she gained her freedom. Thankfully, she found a lovely woung man, got married and is very happy.

I suffered serious non-physical abuse at the end of one relationship and put up with it (with help) because had I walked out of the house before we sold it, it would have led to a series of injunctions to force a sale and I have no doubt he would have trashed the house. As that would have seriously damaged me, I preferred to cope with a limited period of abuse to ensure that, once the house was sold, I could forget him for the rest of my life rather than live with the effects of his potential actions haunting me for many years. It was highly unpleasant in many ways, but when the house was sold, I was entirely free of the b*****d.

Yikes… That’s horrifying.

Unfortunatley there was a case recently in my local paper of a man that had been drugging his wifes nightcap, them bounding her all fours to the bed, bllindfolding her then raping her and inviting other men to do the same.  That poor, poor woman. 

Lol, no worries. I must be honest about my personal posting, I don't know if it is possibly the same for others or if I'm just out of touch. I don't usually post my personal opinion as, I'm not a nasty person I think, but I have very different views on gender/trans/ and other 'woke' opinions than I see expressed on this site. I don't offer up my opinion a lot as I don't want to be banned, or indeed upset anyone. For instance, a while ago I was recommended a book by a poster but was warned that it was by 'A middle aged white woman.' I didn't say anything at the time, but as a 'middle aged white woman' myself I wondered what's so offensive about me?! and indded was offended myself. 

I never knew this sub world of autism existed until I used this site. The labels and identities. 

I'm sorry if I'm going off topic, I don't know quite how to explain it otherwise?

I do very much agree with you that  violence agnist woman and girls will never end until men start calling out other men on their behaviour and words. 

Iain said:

A 2015 study with a sample of 1516 participants reported that 22.6% of men and 10.8% of women have fantasized about "sexually abusing a person who is drunk, asleep, or unconscious

Whoa… 1 in 5 men and 1 in 10 women fantasize about that!? That is way higher than I would have expected for both statistics!

Thanks, your name is genderless, which is great, I enjoy talking to people without preconceptions of gender and stuff, I think it keeps conversations honest.

But I did raise the lack of women posting on this thread, because apart from the two of us it seems there are none. Although I'm glad that so many men have answered and for the most part its been free of the usual gender wars these threads so often seem to provoke. Issues around sexual assault and power can never be resolved unless men help in calling it out as unacceptable. It's just a shame that with this particular case being about the sexual abuse of women that no other women feel able to contribute