Avoidant personality disorder VS Autism

Considering how many undiagnosed autistic individuals there must be out there perhaps ND is actually infact NT. 

I guess the difficulty is that we need the diagnoses to get the support needed and for me anyway, to have an understanding of myself. So yes I absolutely get what you mean but how do we achieve that but still be able to identify need and allocate support?

Why can't we be different types of normal?

Thank you Bunny.

It's perhaps also worth flagging that the latest edition of the ICD diagnostic manual (the ICD-11) has changed its approach in respect of personality disorders.

It has replaced the old category-based approach (which included names / diagnoses including avoidant personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, etc) with the global name of Personality Disorder, which is instead coupled with descriptors for dimensions and traits. 

In respect of differential diagnosis for PD and autism, the manual says that, generally, autistics shouldn't also be diagnosed with PD unless they experience significant problems from additional personality features:

"A number of persistent and enduring mental disorders (e.g., Autism Spectrum Disorder, Schizotypal Disorder, Dysthymic Disorder, Cyclothymic Disorder, Separation Anxiety Disorder, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, Dissociative Identity Disorder) are characterized by enduring disturbances in cognition, emotional experience, and behaviour that are maladaptive, manifest across a range of personal and social situations, and that are associated with significant problems in functioning of aspects of the self (e.g., self-esteem, self-direction), and/or interpersonal dysfunction (e.g., ability to develop and maintain close and mutually satisfying relationships, ability to understand others’ perspectives and to manage conflict in relationships).

Accordingly, individuals with these disorders may also meet the diagnostic requirements for Personality Disorder. Generally, individuals with such disorders should not be given an additional diagnosis of Personality Disorder unless additional personality features are present that contribute to significant problems in functioning of aspects of the self or interpersonal functioning. However, even in the absence of these additional features, there may be specific situations in which an additional diagnosis of Personality Disorder is warranted (e.g., entry into clinically indicated forms of treatment that are connected to a Personality Disorder diagnosis)."

Yes I agree. I think a lot of conditions need to be looked at renamed and for some the criteria redone to keep up with what they now know. ADHD is a classic example as the name and criteria being outdated for the research. But with personality disorders it probably needs to be looked at how they have with autism going from ASD to ASC to acknowledge it not actually being a disorder but even personality condition would be problematic for me. It still suggests there's something wrong with your personality. I know having a personality disorder comes with it's difficulty but labelling your personality as a problem must be difficult on the self esteem. I'm not sure what the answer is but I feel like there must be a better one.

The whole term "personality disorders" confuses me as to me it sounds like one's being officially diagnosed as being an horrible person, rationally I know thats not true and the term is used to cover a raft of different conditions. It's just s term that makes my tail start to fluff up as soon as I hear it.

You might find this graphic (enlarge by clicking or tapping on it), and Dr Neff's related article, helpful:

Neurodivergent Insights - Avoidant Personality Disorder vs Autism

Say with the way the world is going sometime Dr Google is the only way to find out things, too bad there always have to be horror stories on there. Autism does seem to be a harder one to diagnose, especially when it’s like level 1 autism. Suppose it’s harder to find out when you are so young. When I was a toddler I apparently showed some symptoms but I never got an assessment then but I did have a few health professionals throughout my school years and had suggested i was on the spectrum but only low. But I have only just recently been diagnosed with autism and now other conditions and apparently are much harder to treat with autism. 

There is absolutely a place for self diagnosis - it has to be noticed by someone to get as far as a doctor and there's no reason that someone can't be yourself. But I do also think it's very easy to persuade ourselves that we have conditions that actually there are more logical answers to.

Personality disorders are complicated. I don't think anyone fully understands the ins and outs of the causes. 

I think theres a place for self diagnosis, or at least an educated suspicion that you can take to a doctor and get started on the road to formal diagnosis.

I was bullied and excluded by other people, to the point where I'm very wary of new people, I do prefer places like this, but I couldn't imagine being on "bigger" social media where the keyboard warriors hang out. I wasn't trying to infer that all personality disorders are from outside causes such as bullying, but I do wonder what part external sources play in it?

I think all these different diagnosis make me think, 'hang on a minute', as it does seem that new ones are popping up all the time, not to imply that their not genuine or that there aren't people genuinely suffering, but sometimes I think we're encouraged to self diagnose with Dr Google playing a big part. Back in the day, we were warned not to read those medical dictionary things as you'd end up convincing yourself you'd got half the book of illnesses. 

There are many recognised personality disorders with similar symptoms,  it's easy to confuse them. I think that these symptoms of APD may also stem from trauma. Or maybe this disorder itself comes from trauma... there is also a schizoid personality disorder,  also similar to autism and I recognised some of these traits in me, for example fear of closer relationship with someone, because this person could interfere and change me and my routine. But it's also listed, that SPDs don't feel pleasure or do anything for pleasure, but its not the case for me. I can have deep feelings from seeing droplets of water on flower flakes or leaves shaking in the wind, or from listening to music that I like. It gives me kind if goosebumps and I feel this music with my whole body, very intense. And I enjoy doing my favourite things. 

I think you possibly explained my point better than I explained my point.

IntruderAlarmAbatis said:

based on not being able to adequately communicate with groups (especially NT groups);

I would agree with this, I don’t know what to say to people most of the time, there’s a lack of reciprocity on my part and It’s like my inner dialogue has been turned down although it’s trying to speak the loudest to me and would rather ignore the person I am having to engage with. I can start thinking about more interesting topics mid discussion and then I’m really lost as what to say. That’s me on a bad day though and not all the time, lacking social energy is recurrent for me though. 

Alien0n3arth said:

Recently I joined a social group and I'm happy to be able to spend some time with people and do something together.  They encourage me to take part in conversation and sometimes I do

That’s really great and I mean that, putting yourself out there isn’t easy to say the least. I haven’t much interest in involving myself in groups of people although maybe it would be different if I knew perhaps that they were ND also. I really struggle to get along with your everyday John smith, nothing wrong with those people or anyone named that. 

I would imagine bullying plays a huge part in the emergence of personality disorders for some people. Some peoples experience might be on the more extreme side which causes them trauma and certain negative coping skills were gained in order to feel safe and secure again, ultimately I expect it’s about survival and protection of the ego at all costs. 

Expecto_Patronum said:

I can't imagine that people with AVPD would be interacting on a forum such as this as this is a form of social interaction.

This is a very good point actually. There would be severe fear of criticism and judgement from the sufferers posts. I do prefer online or non face to face communication like messaging apps or this forum because you can take the time to say what you want without the social expectation of a more of less immediate response and this way I find I can think more clearly and try get my point across in the best way possible. It’s very easy to take onboard the information Dr Google gives us and try match it to whatever we are looking for as there will always be something you can relate to.

I'm willing to take part in social situation if I know, that I won't be bullied there. If someone likes me there or not, does not bother me much or even at all. Small talk is overwhelming,  I can talk only to one person at time, otherwise I have difficulty understanding,  what all these people talk about if there are many sounds at once, I have difficulty reading the non verbal communication, I'm usually slower to process information and it gives me a sensation of my brain shaking.  Just my POV, I'm not diagnosed with autism, I have never heard of avoidant personality disorder. What I relate to from these symptoms is feeling of inferiority.

Recently I joined a social group and I'm happy to be able to spend some time with people and do something together.  They encourage me to take part in conversation and sometimes I do, but I don't stay long on track. I just say something if I have anything to say and if there is a pause for me to speak. Also the fact that there are more people with disabilities and issues with communication, makes me feel safer. They typically don't bully the way, that NTs do.

This is why I posted what I posted below. I think there is a big difference between being fearful of situations because of our life experiences and having these fears and feelings to the extreme as to in a personality disorder.

Life experiences may well contribute to people having AVPD but I would imagine it's a lot more complicated and I'd say it's a minority that actually have it. It is defined by complete avoidance. I can't imagine that people with AVPD would be interacting on a forum such as this as this is a form of social interaction.

For those of us with social anxiety who avoid a lot of social interaction an online forum can feel like a safer way to do it. And yes if imagine a lot of us who are socially anxious were badly bullied.

This is where people need to be careful. There is a place for self diagnosis but the lines easily become blurred and it is easy to confuse conditions and symptoms.

To answer your question, I don't think I relate massively to this, but I can definitely see how some confusing crossovers could cause confusion.

Personally I would avoid "occupational activities" because of the need for small talk and banter (not for the reasons given); I am prepared to get involved with people, it is important to me to be liked, but if I suspected I was going to be disliked I probably wouldn't begin the involvement; Showing restraint... I don't fully understand what is meant by that; I certainly don't like being criticised or rejected, but no less than anyone else

I suspect, maybe, that the cross over is that they both present as an aversion to social situations, but from my Autistic POV, my aversion is one based on not being able to adequately communicate with groups (especially NT groups); Where as possibly the aversion for someone dealing with APD would be based on not being rejected.

I have very little understanding of APD so can't speak with any confidence, but what you described made me think that.