What does 'theory of mind' mean to you; and how do you improve it as an Autistic person?

Thank you RachelO  You have a good week as well :-)

I don't have a problem with faith, I think it's personal, different aspects of faith appeal to different people, some people need the sort of certainty that some faiths provide, others will want to see overwhelming evidence before the believe anything, some of us love the liminal and the fact that for many it's an intensely personal journey and interaction between oneslf and the divine.

Phased before I read your reply I was quite certain I would get my answer. If something becomes more understood I will say so as well.

Thank you for clarifying this reflective thinking. This is very good stuff and something I will save also if my memory needs a recap.

Brilliant understood the broken mirror theory as well, thank you. I got it, brilliant, yes it will be helpful to point to God in everywhere, bingo.

You are gaining some rhythm in your writing like your about to fire and set something up. Wild.

You then did as well.

So we concluded on blended systems and I understood that, thank you.

Well done and have a good week.

*Hi RachelO 

Thank you so much for taking the time to read and consider my ramblings.

Please permit one more reply as there are implied questions in your response

:-)

reflective thinking is thinking about thinking (often one's own but also can be reflecting about what other people are thinking too) - considering what we are thinking as if we are looking at it in a mirror.

So if when looking in a mirror we saw we weren't smiling or had some dirt on our phase or equally possible we had a clean face and were happy then we could use that to tell something about our-self.

when we look at our own thoughts they can tell us something about ourself and/or how we are doing/feeling about things - this may mean we can maybe do something about/with that it if we want to too.

There is something called "broken mirror theory" that suggests autistic brains have problems so that we don't find it easy to reflect upon our own mind and that of others in some ways.

Consider how hard it might be to look at and see one's own face in a broken mirror.

So if we consider that God is everywhere and can see and know everything then through God there is a way of access to seeing all things.  Seeing God in other things is a way of overcoming the broken mirror,

Reflecting upon God's presence everywhere is a way of literally changing minds and behaviour.  It does so by eventually realising there is no mirror there is just God.

I suggest this is abstract thinking - 

As regards for theory of mind evidence that's tricky as no-one can see all of" someone's mind or even our own easily.  So we make inferences based on what we can know - different people see and know different things (albeit it's said that autistic people have a definable problem with this.)

So for the evidence of God and giving witness to same...

Maybe trying to infer what God wants us to do when we don't ourselves know what to do is helpful in making decisions.

In my post I mentioned a story of me telling someone about a swallow that I saw and this helped them tho' I had no conscious plan that it would.  So, maybe God sent that swallow as some form in intersection?  I don't know that - I may choose to believe that (or not).   Same for other people.  If believing helps - great!  Witness more!

My posit is that if we attune ourselves in whatever way to the possibility of more instances like this it helps in developing abstract thinking - thinking outside the box - "mending" the broken mirror, whatever... this can help in solving the puzzle that being alive often appears to be.

Blended systems?  Yes if, say, type 1 automatic thinking doesn't do the job then use the type 2 longer and considered.  Maybe if we do that long enough and often enough then type 1 can "learn" and do the results of what we have concluded from our tyoe2 more automatically too.

-/\- :-)

Phased your doing great. It was just to reveal another side potentially. Thank you. Now I am nearly done I have nothing left now really apart from an appoitment and online group this week so far. Lets see where that goes but below is what Icame up with. Don't feel you need to respond to anything. The questions can taken as my thought processes.

This is what I have pulled up. I have to surrender at this point,, but when you surrenderd as not being a professional on this  I felt like I must follow suit lol, for you certainly know more than me lol and I may get lost lol. It was a joy though to find some treasures your own thoughts. I hadn’t yet got to that line, I thought that I had. I will continue to read on in private but not post those comments. Anyway, this is where i got to.

I found it interesting about the Systems, System 1 and 2-I think some people can be a blend at times of both when it may be called for. Some people may adjust and may not.  I perhaps have been at times a mixture as well, but may be this more patterned for most of the time. I am not sure if this is ToM but relates to the reflective thinking by Hugo Ross that I quoted.

As I went on-

When you wrote about blended system did you mean it is I took it.

I found it interesting to about the PTSD and this is something that I may learn more on in the future.

Further on you linked ToM to the ability of a person to ascribe a mental state of another person and critically also to themself.  I wondered about the connection to religion is used as God is not another person etc and it is not necessary to knowthe state of God’s mind. You have not mentioned the need of evidence how it described as well in debates around ToM religion/autism.

And may God go with you as well.

Thanks RachelO I am sorry to disappoint :-( Simplify? - yep I struggle with that and appreciate your response - Ok - so God sits in context of theory of mind as being something that enables us to "think outside the box" of our mind.  Autistic minds are presented as having "bits missing".  God helps us get to what may be useful because it enables imagining something we are not normally equipped or used to - as "outside of the box" thinking..  Hehe don't scratch too hard!  "God is good" so many of us go around forgetting that good can be possible.  he rest of the psychology bit maybe makes sense "one bite at a time".   Waterfalls occur in the flow - the water still flows to the sea :-) -/\-

@Phased, thank you. When I asked you about TOM and religion/autism for your take I really meant i wanted to hear your take and put it in your own words. At best I was expecting it in a few sentences that and perhaps you to link to it if any articles were used. I wanted you to break it down and put it in your own words.

I am very happy with the extra information of course I like to learn, but I need people at times to break things down and put it in their own words so I can see it. I was asking that and  you did it and added some extra. I gave priority to your own experiences which I have replied.

It is very unsual to see a 10,000 copy on a forum I must have seen it about twice. For, it is not a testimony of faith. Mine even was half of that. So my efforts that long are for my faith that comes with a priority. Any spare time is for play and interests.

I have no idea where you live and not asking, but priest as accepted where I live for the church ministry work.

So, I've done my workaround and now and cleared the deck of written words for my faith and I've have yours left with just 1,500 remaining. As trutfhful as a punch. I wrote a post on spirituality on this shortly after on another forum. What I said about ToM and autism was about 2 sentences lol. Simplify simplify and condense where we can and we cannot  always.

The combination of your faith I have not heard of before.Looking forward to reading the rest.Thank you for the wealth of information although I fear I may be left scractching my head still as well.

Phased you mentioned about a being headstrong as a boy. I certainly like that as being seen as a headstrong often in my own childhood as a female and sometimes tomboy as well. You later went onto state that how you see someone whether headstrong or not is down the observer. I wonder what traits made anyone consider you as headstrong example.

Btw, thank you for your kind words to me. I will also say you mentioned about your faith and I found that interesting to read. It led me to think of my own studies classics the Trojan Horse???

Your thoughts on abstract realities was interesting as well.

Thank you for explaining about the confusion with your lived experience. You didn’t have to, but that is not rare what happened I think we all know that, but you are clearly of the honest type. I get your explaination for saying you were a healer and warrior but I'm not quite certain why you said you were a priest. I was reading and highlighting and commenting and don't recall reading about your explaination for that. We do though the neurodiverse community need those who are able to put on video support things for us to do, see now inclusive online activities for people who have a learning disability and some will have a neurodiversity. www.inclusiveonlineactivities.com/ 

You mentioned a moment that led you to know you were autistic when you wrote this "Well to shorten a long joke, as an autistic person I may be daft but I'm not stupid...  . At that moment I only knew then that you were autistic for sure. For I kind of assumed it being on this site right and how things played in my ear but I could be wrong, but you confirmed it. Didn't put a single joke  in here to now as I know you understand mine, good one. Keep that Trojan going and thank you for your reply to me.

You get my sense of humor Phased smiles and claps. Not many do lol. You know what they say autistics don't have one but  I always  say no I have my own my unique one which not everyone gets but when they get it they  usually laugh. Good one and you sold it strong now. I have not left the sofa still some on same page with it saved. Had the browser. Came to close and saw your reply. I cannot wait to read all of it tomorrow no joke and I will try for that. This is a beautiful gift for real as I am not going out tomorrow and beyond my waterfall interest have nothing planned so thank you and I appreciate it.Cannot wait.

Hi fives back :-) how do you eat an elephant? (assuming it's ethical)  in small bites :-)  I found putting it together therapeutic and good to get me thinking and assembled on the topic so thanks again - even if it's just the odd jokes that make you smile it's a win-win.  All the best

Phased, this will take me some time to get through and get through all it I will. I put it into word and it is over 3,000 words and 10 pages long.  Saved to be read in bit form later, with no further questions. Your story sounds very interesting. Give me some days and if I have a comment I will reply. Some of this just reading is not easy with my issues. A challenge but a good one as I bite a chunk, high fives and i’ll be back and thank you.

hehe - not Mike Allen - DAVE Allen :-)

HiComputerGeek1337 

I've carried on working on this one and have posted a long answer to RachelO in the rest of the thread which has broadened into religion too.

Where I got to was asking chat GPT 

how does Theory of Mind fit with type 1 type 2 thinking and autism?

In summary, understanding ToM in the context of Type 1 and Type 2 thinking provides a nuanced view of social cognition in autism, highlighting both challenges and compensatory mechanisms. This framework can inform more effective supports and strategies for social development.

For what my inexpert analysis of this is worth I think GPT has given reliable answer so will copy and paste as follows - all the best and thanks again for starting the thread :-)

You said:

how does Theory of Mind fit with type 1 type 2 thinking and autism

ChatGPT said:

ChatGPT

The intersection of Theory of Mind (ToM) with Type 1 and Type 2 thinking and autism offers an insightful framework for understanding cognitive processing and social reasoning. Here's how they connect:

1. Theory of Mind (ToM):

ToM refers to the ability to attribute mental states (beliefs, intentions, emotions) to oneself and others and to understand that others may have thoughts and feelings different from one's own. It underpins social cognition and is often an area of challenge in autism.

2. Type 1 and Type 2 Thinking:

These two types of cognitive processing, described by dual-process theories, help explain how humans think and reason:

• Type 1 Thinking: Fast, automatic, and intuitive. This kind of thinking is often driven by heuristics and does not require conscious effort.
• Type 2 Thinking: Slow, deliberate, and analytical. It involves reasoning and reflection, requiring more cognitive effort.

3. Autism and ToM Challenges:

Individuals with autism may experience difficulties with ToM, such as understanding subtle social cues, predicting others' behavior, or recognizing that others have different perspectives. However, the specific relationship with Type 1 and Type 2 thinking can vary:

• Reduced automaticity in Type 1 Thinking: Challenges in ToM often manifest as difficulties in automatic, intuitive processing of social information, which corresponds to Type 1 thinking.
• Reliance on Type 2 Thinking: Some individuals with autism may consciously engage in more analytical (Type 2) thinking to process social interactions, compensating for the intuitive ToM deficits.

4. ToM, Dual-Process Theories, and Autism:

• Intuitive ToM (Type 1 Thinking): For neurotypical individuals, understanding others' mental states often happens automatically and intuitively. In autism, this automaticity might be less effective or slower to activate.
• Deliberative ToM (Type 2 Thinking): Individuals with autism might rely on deliberate reasoning (e.g., inferring someone’s perspective through logical deduction rather than intuition) to compensate for intuitive ToM challenges.

Key Insights:

• Social Challenges in Autism: The interplay of impaired Type 1 processing with the reliance on Type 2 compensatory strategies might contribute to social fatigue and difficulties in real-time social interactions.
• Strengths in Analytical Reasoning: Many individuals with autism excel in analytical tasks, aligning with strengths in Type 2 thinking, but might find tasks requiring intuitive social reasoning (Type 1) more demanding.
• Interventions and Support: ToM training and interventions could focus on developing strategies to enhance both automatic (Type 1) and deliberative (Type 2) social reasoning, tailored to the individual's cognitive style.

In summary, understanding ToM in the context of Type 1 and Type 2 thinking provides a nuanced view of social cognition in autism, highlighting both challenges and compensatory mechanisms. This framework can inform more effective supports and strategies for social development.

Thank you for continuing the thread RachelO and thank you for your kind words about the insight that I passed on.

I hope that it is OK that I followed up your comment about sharing your journey by quickly scanning to see if I could find the post. 

So, as I result I would like to share with you that I was a headstrong boy... :-)

Funny how being head-strong is considered as problematic.  It can be interpreted in at least a couple of ways maybe... 

Your encouragement to develop the thread is a blessing to me - thank you  -/\- 

I wish to present my apologies as on re-reading my post the impression it gives is that I have a greater insight into matters spiritual than I can reasonably lay claim to.  I have no formal training nor credentials in the area - I allude to the journey that takes one there.  Training and credentials that I have are in the "warrior" and "healer" categories"- and then for the first I am gratified to say that I have not been called upon to engage in warfare  (unless I count the "fight the good fight with all my might" lyric! :-) )  I think it important that I clarify this.

My spiritual background is primarily in Taoism and Christianity  -.  Christianity via the society and educational system that I grew up in.  Taoism brought to me via the Trojan horse of martial arts - which I have degrees of training and qualifications in - up to the level of being a "teacher".

Taoism and Christianity encompass philosophy and a religion - for me it is much more philosophy that I appear to be engaged with and by.  However the longer I spend with this the more that I conclude there are deep cross-overs in this.  Both philosophy and religion are human processes engaged in by people to understand fundamental truths about themselves, the world in which they live, and their relationships to the world, each other.

Believing that there is something "unknown" drives the urge to find it out.

Believing that ultimately some things are vast and unknowable and indescribable (God - the Tao et al) means that we don't have to be desolate when despite our greatest efforts (so far) we still haven't got all the answers.

Knowing that it's OK to not know things makes learning easier :-)  ("known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns")

Science is a branch of philosophy - I have an undergraduate degree of academic training in this and by professional qualification and practice I am a chartered physiotherapist. 

Most of my postgraduate work/study/credentials are from the perspective of the bio/psycho/social sciences too and these same issues from a Taoist perspective.  I am biased to use these as theory and evidence in discussion.

I can very confidently say that I'm intelligent enough to known that I know very, very, very little and have a reasonable insight into the degree of confidence that I know what I do know :-)

So...

It is in the medical diagnosis that autistic people have a struggle with change. 

Personally I think that human society as a whole has a big problem with change.  Dis-regulated change seems to me to be responsible for a lot of the problems that beset people and the world we rely upon.

Change is I reckon undeniable.

The Greek philosopher Heraclitus once described change as the idea that “One cannot step into the same river twice”.

It's all caught up with the way time flows perhaps - past, present and future and how these things are framed and re-framed.  (sorry for the digression)

Anyway: 

Change to my unqualified eye also appears to widely underpin lots of religions to in a meta-physical sense.  Transubstantiation, re-incarnation, reaching some other plane of existence et al

Most Taoist traditions build their complex systems of thought and practice on the backbone of the interplay of components and states of change. 

Science does this too.  Physics/chemistry/biomedical science/economics et al

These areas all claim and perhaps to some extent do truly explain and provide answers about change and maybe even how to "do change better".

Maybe they are all part of the same thing?     (Call it what you like - such a shame that there is often so much disagreement about that!  Johnathan Swift and the big endians and little endians in Gullivers Travels...)

Yes I completely concur with the analysis that autistic people often have a need for a logical understanding.  I'll return to this at a later part of the post from psychology science but for now... 

There is an often quoted expression about "doing the same thing the same way and expecting a different outcome is called madness".  Well to shorten a long joke, as an autistic person I may be daft but I'm not stupid...  

(The whole joke is something like this:  sorry don't know who first came up with it to give credit where credit is due...

Once upon a time someone like me would have been placed in a special institution.

Someone changing their car wheel next to such a place knocked the hub-cap they'd put the wheel nuts in sending them into a deep drain.

From the other side of the wall someone asked if it was OK to offer a suggestion.

With consent they suggested taking one nut from each of the remaining wheels to provide a temporary solution and driving very carefully to a place where it could be properly resolved.

The car owner asked why with such wisdom the person was the side of the wall they where.

To which came the answer:

I may be daft but I'm not stupid... _

So, how do we overcome problems as human beings?

Well, assuming we're not caught up in some stupid war or knocking our nuts down a drain, we reason our way through them.

My work training and personal needs took me into the realm of exploring reasoning

There are several types identified of which:

Hypothetical/deductive and pattern recognition are worth exploring - both have pro's and cons and if you like we can expand upon this, but...

It struck me though that in order to get a hang on something that I really didn't have any insight into like what I might be "missing" from solving the problem how on earth do I do it if I don't know what it is?

This includes the things that I didn't know I didn't know about myself because I'm autistic...

Well it seems the answer may lie in something called abstract reasoning.

A search on Google says:

"Abstract reasoning represents a person's ability to solve problems, identify patterns, and work with logical systems. It refers to the capacity to think conceptually, grasp complex ideas, and identify patterns and relationships without relying on concrete, specific examples."  (my italics)

This says that (as an autistic person) even if I don't have the same experiences and capacities that other people have to do it I can still find a way ...

Before I carry on I am not about to suggest that people who have heard God - can see God etc have not had that experience.  Unless good evidence to the contrary I believe them :-) .

However to me belief in God or the Tao et al is the ultimate abstract reality that one can see in everything. 

It opens up via "belief" the mental possibility of using abstract reasoning to solve problems.  Not having to work it all out from hypothesis and deduction or whether I've seen exactly this before to resolve the problem(although these are still valid and useful and not to be excluded!).  It makes it easier into being "reborn" in such a way as to not keeping doing things the same way and expecting different results...

I once coincidentally met up again with a person who I'd been part of the team helping them when they were in hospital intensive care.  They thanked me for my help and asked me if I knew what had helped them the most.  I wondered if it might be helping them to breathe easier, sit up, stand, move and walk again.  Well it turned out I had told them when they still were physically unable to reply that I had just seen my first swallow of summer and they determined that they wanted to see that too... 

It's all interconnected in ways we so seldom notice.  Maybe abstract reasoning or recognising God or the Tao or the first swallow of summer helps us realise this and helps us "unstick" and see change appreciate it and and how to go about it from a different perspective?

Maybe for this reason having a sense of a supreme being that is able to see and know everything is valuable when as an autistic person we feel that other people cannot see the "real" us and we can't see ourselves either...?

Maybe also believing in a supreme being that gives us the unconditional love and nurture that we all need to allow ourselves to recognise and be the "real" us and from this place grow and develop?

Maybe also the knowledge that there are things that are beyond understanding and will be revealed to us through faith "opens the door" to abstract thinking and "the first swallow of summer" for autistic people and others to find these things?

Maybe religion is also a collection of the right words in the right place too - it helps to know that "This too will pass"... divinely inspired or not :-)

Anyway back to the Theory of mind bit...

I think one way of putting it is that autistic people are a certain "type" of head strong and head weak according to what shows on the outside observer.  This (among other things) depends on the observer and what they are looking for, what they are able and perhaps most importantly want to see.

I think exploring "strengths and weaknesses" in what's going on inside people's heads is the thing that Theory of Mind is about and this can useful for autistic people to consider and use it as a way of logically analysing how useful change can be made. 

I have used the word "metacognition" in a previous post: to steal a joke from psychologist Stephen Pinker on this: "Today, a lot of people are thinking about thinking"

Metacognition is "thinking about thinking".

There is an often mistranslated quote from a Taoist text that says "the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step".  The original text is perhaps better translated as being that such a journey begins underneath one's feet.  

Good idea to know where you are first and then decide which way to go to where you want to get to...

I regularly use a word joke about "under - standing" what is happening to endeavor to explain this - how many people physically and metaphorically trip over things they overlooked,,, etc.

In respect of intuitive versus reflective thinking I personally think the terminology is confusing.  Because to me "in-tuitive" means that I am teaching myself.  This to me better describes reflective thinking - hehe tho' thinking about it I could be wrong... :-)

System 1 and System 2 thinking is another way of describing this and I think this is easier to understand: 

To quote Google on this:

"Thinking, Fast and Slow is a 2011 popular science book by psychologist Daniel Kahneman. The book's main thesis is a differentiation between two modes of thought: "System 1" is fast, instinctive and emotional; "System 2" is slower, more deliberative, and more logical."

In the science of thinking these systems are represented as being distant poles of how people do it.  But they can be blended "for the better" and exploring and realising how has potential.

Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel prize (in economics!) for proving by using the scientific approach of actually measuring it how irrational intuitive human behaviour can be.

Identifying the two types of thinking as being two different systems like this is worth a Nobel prize -shame that money had to come into it to do it perhaps... (someone else is reported to have kicked the money lenders out of the temple...  :-)    )

I suggest that especially for autistic people being able to notice where we and others tend most towards in respect of type 1 type 2 thinking might be useful to know.

"the journey begins underneath your feet..."

From what I personally experience and from what I learn from self-directed study on autism there seem to be issues of autistic people (and others who have post traumatic stress problems etc.) that the problems of "meshing" with neurotypical people is mostly in the system 1 part of fast, instinctive and emotional behaviour.

Theory of mind fits with thisin psychology and philosophy is the "thing" that  enables understanding/interpretation of the thoughts, beliefs, desires and emotions of other people and oneself.  It is the ability of a person to ascribe a mental state of another person and critically also to themself.

There are crossovers :-)

 anyway - I've asked chat GPT to sum this up and also how system 1/ 2 thinking and theory of mind correlates with autism and these answers follow

I'm thinking about sharing these wider too as I think we're onto something here :-)

"In summary, understanding ToM in the context of Type 1 and Type 2 thinking provides a nuanced view of social cognition in autism, highlighting both challenges and compensatory mechanisms. This framework can inform more effective supports and strategies for social development."

for what it's worth from my understanding of the topic the answers given are good (but I am by no means an expert!)  so I am sharing these as follows .

thanks again -

Best wishes and as Mike Allen used to put it:

"may your God go with you" 

-/\- :-)

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You said:

ChatGPT said:

The question then arises how this fits with autisitic people

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You said:

ChatGPT said:

Nick Peters: https://www.deeperwatersapologetics.com/questions-about-nick-peters/

Phased your post I found very interesting and insightful. Although I have heard about theory of mind and autism and theory of mind and autism and religion. I understand it but felt may be that I hadn't fully understood it as I would have liked to myself on ToM and religion so thank you for your thoughts.  I have heard about mindblindless before as well. I looked at Hugo Ross's blog as someone in this thread mentioned their work. I looked and saw that what was written in the 3rd blog article was that with autism and religion autistics often have the need for a logical explaination...This seems to be another thing about theory of mind. Their third post addresses about a need for logical explaniations and they mention to about intuitive thinkers verses reflective thinkers. I cannot say I understood the latter part, but it sounds very interesting.

https://reasons.org/?s=autism

I used to attend the spirituality group run by David Derbyshire last year on the  neurodiverse and spirituality. That was really good for me to attend on Zoom. Unfortunetly they had to step back. Perhaps I'm nominating you lol with all your knowledge to do something similiar lol. It would be a good thing but don't take that too seriously at all.

This is not about faith itself, but I did share my own journey on here early last year.. With your history if you have something written do share perhaps if needed in another post.

Thank you for sharing, I have some thoughts and will reply more on this and will mention Hugh Ross to in a post I am going to reply to Phased in this thread. I haven't been able to find anything about Jonathan McLatchie and their autism though. Nick Peters is confusing to me as there are several of them online, I am not certain which one it is that you are referring to.

Also: Nick Peters

Hi RachelO Thanks for your post and the links -  The open access document on religion and autism had a nice summary of research et al on the topic of theory of mind.

A couple of bits that jumped out to me being:

1 Patients close to neurotypical individuals on the ToM continuum are aware of higher-order mental states at the metacognitive level (thoughts about thoughts).

and

2 According to this model, ASD is characterized by a deficit of mental conflict monitoring instead of a missing mental representation ability (“mindblindness”)

for

1 links with the neurology in as much as "defecits" in emotional awareness may plausibly be overcome by cognitive processing - religious practices that encourage meditation or contemplation are by their nature encouraging metacognition perhaps...  this also fits with my personal experience of being able to "think" my way thro; some of the problems that are inherent with having a "defect" in one' theory of mind

2 religious teachings are often pretty strong on the "right" versus "wrong".  I concur with the analysis of difficulty in monitoring mental conflict.  In so far as having a set of rules which one follows and importantly a society that also follows them there is present I suspect increased potential for a more comfortable existence for an autistic person.

In the Youtube videos I picked up on " Connection with the deeper self and the divine".

I am drawn to conjecture that "the deeper self" may well be a description of getting in contact with one's own theory of mind - this being a necessary precursor for the metacognitive benefits previously mentioned.

I am happy that you find support from faith :-)

One wonders also how many seers and prophets have come from a sense of otherness...

For myself I've been travelling a journey that traditionally goes: warrior, healer, priest.  For myself the deeper sense of moral and ethical behaviour that is encompassed in "true" faith and the sense of purpose that makes sense of our existence is strong.  Apart from certain parts of the physical existence that I would find impossible to pass up the monastic life style has much appeal to the autistic me - order, routine, purpose, community, good food (and beer :-) )  Hehe maybe in the next life... All the best :-)

Hugh Ross and Jonathan McLatchie are two very intellectual Christians (experts on theology, philosophy) who both have Aspergers Syndrome