As above.
As above.
I have heard about theory of mind some time ago. I find it interesting though what is written about religion. It is thought and information is out there that some autistics will struggle with religion/faith because of theory of mind. It has been written in the past that they may struggle with having a faith because of a need for evidence and therefore not being able to believe in anything without seeing. I find it interesting that work arounds shall we say exist for this to. Some new articles touch on this how autistics may be more graced with other gifts to circumvent this weakness.
"Religiosity is possibly expressed differently in ASD with unique spiritual experiences and beliefs (“gifted, visionary, and truth-seeker”). In some circumstances, .
Hi RachelO Thanks for your post and the links - The open access document on religion and autism had a nice summary of research et al on the topic of theory of mind.
A couple of bits that jumped out to me being:
1 Patients close to neurotypical individuals on the ToM continuum are aware of higher-order mental states at the metacognitive level (thoughts about thoughts).
and
2 According to this model, ASD is characterized by a deficit of mental conflict monitoring instead of a missing mental representation ability (“mindblindness”)
for
1 links with the neurology in as much as "defecits" in emotional awareness may plausibly be overcome by cognitive processing - religious practices that encourage meditation or contemplation are by their nature encouraging metacognition perhaps... this also fits with my personal experience of being able to "think" my way thro; some of the problems that are inherent with having a "defect" in one' theory of mind
2 religious teachings are often pretty strong on the "right" versus "wrong". I concur with the analysis of difficulty in monitoring mental conflict. In so far as having a set of rules which one follows and importantly a society that also follows them there is present I suspect increased potential for a more comfortable existence for an autistic person.
In the Youtube videos I picked up on " Connection with the deeper self and the divine".
I am drawn to conjecture that "the deeper self" may well be a description of getting in contact with one's own theory of mind - this being a necessary precursor for the metacognitive benefits previously mentioned.
I am happy that you find support from faith :-)
One wonders also how many seers and prophets have come from a sense of otherness...
For myself I've been travelling a journey that traditionally goes: warrior, healer, priest. For myself the deeper sense of moral and ethical behaviour that is encompassed in "true" faith and the sense of purpose that makes sense of our existence is strong. Apart from certain parts of the physical existence that I would find impossible to pass up the monastic life style has much appeal to the autistic me - order, routine, purpose, community, good food (and beer :-) ) Hehe maybe in the next life... All the best :-)
Phased your post I found very interesting and insightful. Although I have heard about theory of mind and autism and theory of mind and autism and religion. I understand it but felt may be that I hadn't fully understood it as I would have liked to myself on ToM and religion so thank you for your thoughts. I have heard about mindblindless before as well. I looked at Hugo Ross's blog as someone in this thread mentioned their work. I looked and saw that what was written in the 3rd blog article was that with autism and religion autistics often have the need for a logical explaination...This seems to be another thing about theory of mind. Their third post addresses about a need for logical explaniations and they mention to about intuitive thinkers verses reflective thinkers. I cannot say I understood the latter part, but it sounds very interesting.
I used to attend the spirituality group run by David Derbyshire last year on the neurodiverse and spirituality. That was really good for me to attend on Zoom. Unfortunetly they had to step back. Perhaps I'm nominating you lol with all your knowledge to do something similiar lol. It would be a good thing but don't take that too seriously at all.
This is not about faith itself, but I did share my own journey on here early last year.. With your history if you have something written do share perhaps if needed in another post.
Phased before I read your reply I was quite certain I would get my answer. If something becomes more understood I will say so as well.
Thank you for clarifying this reflective thinking. This is very good stuff and something I will save also if my memory needs a recap.
Brilliant understood the broken mirror theory as well, thank you. I got it, brilliant, yes it will be helpful to point to God in everywhere, bingo.
You are gaining some rhythm in your writing like your about to fire and set something up. Wild.
You then did as well.
So we concluded on blended systems and I understood that, thank you.
Well done and have a good week.
*Hi RachelO
Thank you so much for taking the time to read and consider my ramblings.
Please permit one more reply as there are implied questions in your response
:-)
reflective thinking is thinking about thinking (often one's own but also can be reflecting about what other people are thinking too) - considering what we are thinking as if we are looking at it in a mirror.
So if when looking in a mirror we saw we weren't smiling or had some dirt on our phase or equally possible we had a clean face and were happy then we could use that to tell something about our-self.
when we look at our own thoughts they can tell us something about ourself and/or how we are doing/feeling about things - this may mean we can maybe do something about/with that it if we want to too.
There is something called "broken mirror theory" that suggests autistic brains have problems so that we don't find it easy to reflect upon our own mind and that of others in some ways.
Consider how hard it might be to look at and see one's own face in a broken mirror.
So if we consider that God is everywhere and can see and know everything then through God there is a way of access to seeing all things. Seeing God in other things is a way of overcoming the broken mirror,
Reflecting upon God's presence everywhere is a way of literally changing minds and behaviour. It does so by eventually realising there is no mirror there is just God.
I suggest this is abstract thinking -
As regards for theory of mind evidence that's tricky as no-one can see all of" someone's mind or even our own easily. So we make inferences based on what we can know - different people see and know different things (albeit it's said that autistic people have a definable problem with this.)
So for the evidence of God and giving witness to same...
Maybe trying to infer what God wants us to do when we don't ourselves know what to do is helpful in making decisions.
In my post I mentioned a story of me telling someone about a swallow that I saw and this helped them tho' I had no conscious plan that it would. So, maybe God sent that swallow as some form in intersection? I don't know that - I may choose to believe that (or not). Same for other people. If believing helps - great! Witness more!
My posit is that if we attune ourselves in whatever way to the possibility of more instances like this it helps in developing abstract thinking - thinking outside the box - "mending" the broken mirror, whatever... this can help in solving the puzzle that being alive often appears to be.
Blended systems? Yes if, say, type 1 automatic thinking doesn't do the job then use the type 2 longer and considered. Maybe if we do that long enough and often enough then type 1 can "learn" and do the results of what we have concluded from our tyoe2 more automatically too.
-/\- :-)
Phased your doing great. It was just to reveal another side potentially. Thank you. Now I am nearly done I have nothing left now really apart from an appoitment and online group this week so far. Lets see where that goes but below is what Icame up with. Don't feel you need to respond to anything. The questions can taken as my thought processes.
This is what I have pulled up. I have to surrender at this point,, but when you surrenderd as not being a professional on this I felt like I must follow suit lol, for you certainly know more than me lol and I may get lost lol. It was a joy though to find some treasures your own thoughts. I hadn’t yet got to that line, I thought that I had. I will continue to read on in private but not post those comments. Anyway, this is where i got to.
I found it interesting about the Systems, System 1 and 2-I think some people can be a blend at times of both when it may be called for. Some people may adjust and may not. I perhaps have been at times a mixture as well, but may be this more patterned for most of the time. I am not sure if this is ToM but relates to the reflective thinking by Hugo Ross that I quoted.
As I went on-
When you wrote about blended system did you mean it is I took it.
I found it interesting to about the PTSD and this is something that I may learn more on in the future.
Further on you linked ToM to the ability of a person to ascribe a mental state of another person and critically also to themself. I wondered about the connection to religion is used as God is not another person etc and it is not necessary to knowthe state of God’s mind. You have not mentioned the need of evidence how it described as well in debates around ToM religion/autism.
And may God go with you as well.
Thanks RachelO I am sorry to disappoint :-( Simplify? - yep I struggle with that and appreciate your response - Ok - so God sits in context of theory of mind as being something that enables us to "think outside the box" of our mind. Autistic minds are presented as having "bits missing". God helps us get to what may be useful because it enables imagining something we are not normally equipped or used to - as "outside of the box" thinking.. Hehe don't scratch too hard! "God is good" so many of us go around forgetting that good can be possible. he rest of the psychology bit maybe makes sense "one bite at a time". Waterfalls occur in the flow - the water still flows to the sea :-) -/\-
@Phased, thank you. When I asked you about TOM and religion/autism for your take I really meant i wanted to hear your take and put it in your own words. At best I was expecting it in a few sentences that and perhaps you to link to it if any articles were used. I wanted you to break it down and put it in your own words.
I am very happy with the extra information of course I like to learn, but I need people at times to break things down and put it in their own words so I can see it. I was asking that and you did it and added some extra. I gave priority to your own experiences which I have replied.
It is very unsual to see a 10,000 copy on a forum I must have seen it about twice. For, it is not a testimony of faith. Mine even was half of that. So my efforts that long are for my faith that comes with a priority. Any spare time is for play and interests.
I have no idea where you live and not asking, but priest as accepted where I live for the church ministry work.
So, I've done my workaround and now and cleared the deck of written words for my faith and I've have yours left with just 1,500 remaining. As trutfhful as a punch. I wrote a post on spirituality on this shortly after on another forum. What I said about ToM and autism was about 2 sentences lol. Simplify simplify and condense where we can and we cannot always.
The combination of your faith I have not heard of before.Looking forward to reading the rest.Thank you for the wealth of information although I fear I may be left scractching my head still as well.
Phased you mentioned about a being headstrong as a boy. I certainly like that as being seen as a headstrong often in my own childhood as a female and sometimes tomboy as well. You later went onto state that how you see someone whether headstrong or not is down the observer. I wonder what traits made anyone consider you as headstrong example.
Btw, thank you for your kind words to me. I will also say you mentioned about your faith and I found that interesting to read. It led me to think of my own studies classics the Trojan Horse???
Your thoughts on abstract realities was interesting as well.
Thank you for explaining about the confusion with your lived experience. You didn’t have to, but that is not rare what happened I think we all know that, but you are clearly of the honest type. I get your explaination for saying you were a healer and warrior but I'm not quite certain why you said you were a priest. I was reading and highlighting and commenting and don't recall reading about your explaination for that. We do though the neurodiverse community need those who are able to put on video support things for us to do, see now inclusive online activities for people who have a learning disability and some will have a neurodiversity. www.inclusiveonlineactivities.com/
You mentioned a moment that led you to know you were autistic when you wrote this "Well to shorten a long joke, as an autistic person I may be daft but I'm not stupid... . At that moment I only knew then that you were autistic for sure. For I kind of assumed it being on this site right and how things played in my ear but I could be wrong, but you confirmed it. Didn't put a single joke in here to now as I know you understand mine, good one. Keep that Trojan going and thank you for your reply to me.
Phased you mentioned about a being headstrong as a boy. I certainly like that as being seen as a headstrong often in my own childhood as a female and sometimes tomboy as well. You later went onto state that how you see someone whether headstrong or not is down the observer. I wonder what traits made anyone consider you as headstrong example.
Btw, thank you for your kind words to me. I will also say you mentioned about your faith and I found that interesting to read. It led me to think of my own studies classics the Trojan Horse???
Your thoughts on abstract realities was interesting as well.
Thank you for explaining about the confusion with your lived experience. You didn’t have to, but that is not rare what happened I think we all know that, but you are clearly of the honest type. I get your explaination for saying you were a healer and warrior but I'm not quite certain why you said you were a priest. I was reading and highlighting and commenting and don't recall reading about your explaination for that. We do though the neurodiverse community need those who are able to put on video support things for us to do, see now inclusive online activities for people who have a learning disability and some will have a neurodiversity. www.inclusiveonlineactivities.com/
You mentioned a moment that led you to know you were autistic when you wrote this "Well to shorten a long joke, as an autistic person I may be daft but I'm not stupid... . At that moment I only knew then that you were autistic for sure. For I kind of assumed it being on this site right and how things played in my ear but I could be wrong, but you confirmed it. Didn't put a single joke in here to now as I know you understand mine, good one. Keep that Trojan going and thank you for your reply to me.
Phased before I read your reply I was quite certain I would get my answer. If something becomes more understood I will say so as well.
Thank you for clarifying this reflective thinking. This is very good stuff and something I will save also if my memory needs a recap.
Brilliant understood the broken mirror theory as well, thank you. I got it, brilliant, yes it will be helpful to point to God in everywhere, bingo.
You are gaining some rhythm in your writing like your about to fire and set something up. Wild.
You then did as well.
So we concluded on blended systems and I understood that, thank you.
Well done and have a good week.
*Hi RachelO
Thank you so much for taking the time to read and consider my ramblings.
Please permit one more reply as there are implied questions in your response
:-)
reflective thinking is thinking about thinking (often one's own but also can be reflecting about what other people are thinking too) - considering what we are thinking as if we are looking at it in a mirror.
So if when looking in a mirror we saw we weren't smiling or had some dirt on our phase or equally possible we had a clean face and were happy then we could use that to tell something about our-self.
when we look at our own thoughts they can tell us something about ourself and/or how we are doing/feeling about things - this may mean we can maybe do something about/with that it if we want to too.
There is something called "broken mirror theory" that suggests autistic brains have problems so that we don't find it easy to reflect upon our own mind and that of others in some ways.
Consider how hard it might be to look at and see one's own face in a broken mirror.
So if we consider that God is everywhere and can see and know everything then through God there is a way of access to seeing all things. Seeing God in other things is a way of overcoming the broken mirror,
Reflecting upon God's presence everywhere is a way of literally changing minds and behaviour. It does so by eventually realising there is no mirror there is just God.
I suggest this is abstract thinking -
As regards for theory of mind evidence that's tricky as no-one can see all of" someone's mind or even our own easily. So we make inferences based on what we can know - different people see and know different things (albeit it's said that autistic people have a definable problem with this.)
So for the evidence of God and giving witness to same...
Maybe trying to infer what God wants us to do when we don't ourselves know what to do is helpful in making decisions.
In my post I mentioned a story of me telling someone about a swallow that I saw and this helped them tho' I had no conscious plan that it would. So, maybe God sent that swallow as some form in intersection? I don't know that - I may choose to believe that (or not). Same for other people. If believing helps - great! Witness more!
My posit is that if we attune ourselves in whatever way to the possibility of more instances like this it helps in developing abstract thinking - thinking outside the box - "mending" the broken mirror, whatever... this can help in solving the puzzle that being alive often appears to be.
Blended systems? Yes if, say, type 1 automatic thinking doesn't do the job then use the type 2 longer and considered. Maybe if we do that long enough and often enough then type 1 can "learn" and do the results of what we have concluded from our tyoe2 more automatically too.
-/\- :-)
Phased your doing great. It was just to reveal another side potentially. Thank you. Now I am nearly done I have nothing left now really apart from an appoitment and online group this week so far. Lets see where that goes but below is what Icame up with. Don't feel you need to respond to anything. The questions can taken as my thought processes.
This is what I have pulled up. I have to surrender at this point,, but when you surrenderd as not being a professional on this I felt like I must follow suit lol, for you certainly know more than me lol and I may get lost lol. It was a joy though to find some treasures your own thoughts. I hadn’t yet got to that line, I thought that I had. I will continue to read on in private but not post those comments. Anyway, this is where i got to.
I found it interesting about the Systems, System 1 and 2-I think some people can be a blend at times of both when it may be called for. Some people may adjust and may not. I perhaps have been at times a mixture as well, but may be this more patterned for most of the time. I am not sure if this is ToM but relates to the reflective thinking by Hugo Ross that I quoted.
As I went on-
When you wrote about blended system did you mean it is I took it.
I found it interesting to about the PTSD and this is something that I may learn more on in the future.
Further on you linked ToM to the ability of a person to ascribe a mental state of another person and critically also to themself. I wondered about the connection to religion is used as God is not another person etc and it is not necessary to knowthe state of God’s mind. You have not mentioned the need of evidence how it described as well in debates around ToM religion/autism.
And may God go with you as well.
Thanks RachelO I am sorry to disappoint :-( Simplify? - yep I struggle with that and appreciate your response - Ok - so God sits in context of theory of mind as being something that enables us to "think outside the box" of our mind. Autistic minds are presented as having "bits missing". God helps us get to what may be useful because it enables imagining something we are not normally equipped or used to - as "outside of the box" thinking.. Hehe don't scratch too hard! "God is good" so many of us go around forgetting that good can be possible. he rest of the psychology bit maybe makes sense "one bite at a time". Waterfalls occur in the flow - the water still flows to the sea :-) -/\-
@Phased, thank you. When I asked you about TOM and religion/autism for your take I really meant i wanted to hear your take and put it in your own words. At best I was expecting it in a few sentences that and perhaps you to link to it if any articles were used. I wanted you to break it down and put it in your own words.
I am very happy with the extra information of course I like to learn, but I need people at times to break things down and put it in their own words so I can see it. I was asking that and you did it and added some extra. I gave priority to your own experiences which I have replied.
It is very unsual to see a 10,000 copy on a forum I must have seen it about twice. For, it is not a testimony of faith. Mine even was half of that. So my efforts that long are for my faith that comes with a priority. Any spare time is for play and interests.
I have no idea where you live and not asking, but priest as accepted where I live for the church ministry work.
So, I've done my workaround and now and cleared the deck of written words for my faith and I've have yours left with just 1,500 remaining. As trutfhful as a punch. I wrote a post on spirituality on this shortly after on another forum. What I said about ToM and autism was about 2 sentences lol. Simplify simplify and condense where we can and we cannot always.
The combination of your faith I have not heard of before.Looking forward to reading the rest.Thank you for the wealth of information although I fear I may be left scractching my head still as well.
